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Valexia
Posted - 2005.09.10 01:12:00 - [1]
 

Are these just worthless?

I bought a caracal hoping that it might be a cruiser version of the Kestrel, which had endless trouble completing level 2 combat missions.

When I could finally outfit it with heavy missiles, I find that I'm hitting enemies, even enemy CRUISERS for under 60 dmg.

The missiles base damage is 150, and yet I hit for 60? I'm hitting for 105 on a STATIONARY TARGET (warehouse), regardless of missile type.

So yeah, are missiles just worthless?

Ghoest
Posted - 2005.09.10 01:14:00 - [2]
 

Here is the short helpful answer.

Use assult launchers with light missles and youll own all lvl 2 missions.

Layrex
Caldari
Posted - 2005.09.10 01:17:00 - [3]
 

You must be playing completley wrong if you're having trouble with level 2's in a Caracal. I do lvl 3's in it. :/

Valexia
Posted - 2005.09.10 01:18:00 - [4]
 

:/

What about when I get to fight the occasional guy who hits me from 30km away?

Valexia
Posted - 2005.09.10 01:23:00 - [5]
 

Kestrel I have trouble doing level 2.

Caracal isn't any trouble in level 2, it's just slow.

Layrex
Caldari
Posted - 2005.09.10 01:30:00 - [6]
 

Oh sorry I read it wrong. Get launcher to 5 and train guided missle precision.

Sorja
11th Division
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2005.09.10 01:43:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Layrex
You must be playing completley wrong if you're having trouble with level 2's in a Caracal. I do lvl 3's in it. :/


Bragging 4tl
You think you are doing newbies a service with that?

On topic: don't take anybody's word, try it for yourself.
Train your gunnery skills up (at least medium rails 3, motion prediction, surgical strike and so on), get yourself a Moa, fit a webber, 250mm rails, the best damage mod you can, and test it.
You'll have the answer to your question.

Layrex
Caldari
Posted - 2005.09.10 01:48:00 - [8]
 

It's not bragging mrs hero, anyone can do it. I thought he was having trouble with lvl 2's with a Cara and I was pointing out you can do lvl 3's in them to show lvl 2's would be a prob I don't know. It turned out I read it wrong.

Believe me if you flew with me you'd see I have nothing to brag about. Very Happy

Vaevectia
Posted - 2005.09.10 01:48:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Vaevectia on 10/09/2005 01:50:13
So it's safe to say that it'll take me 2-3 weeks of training from where I am in order to do level 2 missions with any kind of speed?

EDIT: And yeah, implied message of "missiles are a waste of time" has been recieved.

Yikes.

Thanks.

Oh yeah, screwed up the char; this is the OP.

Dimitri Forgroth
Infortunatus Eventus
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2005.09.10 01:51:00 - [10]
 

Use assault launchers. Heavy missiles are designed for taking down cruisers, which I don't think you get a lot of in level 2's? (Been a looong time since I did them). The lights might even hit for more than the heavies in some cases, and will also have a higher rate of fire.

Layrex
Caldari
Posted - 2005.09.10 01:52:00 - [11]
 

Ah Dimitri you moved. Shame it's Stain.

There are quite alot of cruisers on lvl 2's.

Dimitri Forgroth
Infortunatus Eventus
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2005.09.10 01:55:00 - [12]
 

What's wrong with stain? Sad

Maybe could go in first with assault launchers, then refit with heavies? Dunno, fitting a target painter might help a lot with the damage on the heavy missiles on smaller targets. Theres a few ways to work with the missiles.

luckyducky
Posted - 2005.09.10 02:01:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Vaevectia
Edited by: Vaevectia on 10/09/2005 01:50:13
So it's safe to say that it'll take me 2-3 weeks of training from where I am in order to do level 2 missions with any kind of speed?

EDIT: And yeah, implied message of "missiles are a waste of time" has been recieved.

Yikes.

Thanks.

Oh yeah, screwed up the char; this is the OP.


no, it's not a waste.... guns work terribly too if you don't train up the skills. A Caracal for lvl 2 missions really works better with assault launchers since it's mostly frigs. It'll help your cause to train that up.

There's no fast way to do things when your new, it takes a little time, but with each lvl of skill increase, you'll see nice improvements... i'm betting in 2 weeks you'll not only have enough skills to fly through lvl 2s, but will also be competent enough (skill wise) to do lvl 3s in a Ferox. 4 weeks and you be able to fly through lvl 3s.

IamBen
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.09.10 02:25:00 - [14]
 

heavy misslse at the moment are pretty bad go with light. I tested em out the other day, with all the new missle skills at lvl 4, i had a stiletto mwding straight at me and he was painted. My missles did 11 damage. Docked refitted, killed the stilleto in two volleys. Go assault launchers and life is happy.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.09.10 02:49:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: j0sephine on 10/09/2005 02:49:53

"When I could finally outfit it with heavy missiles, I find that I'm hitting enemies, even enemy CRUISERS for under 60 dmg.

The missiles base damage is 150, and yet I hit for 60? I'm hitting for 105 on a STATIONARY TARGET (warehouse), regardless of missile type.

So yeah, are missiles just worthless?"


Nah, they're quite okay (although with the launchers as they currently are, can be on the low side as far as damage over time goes)

You should be hitting cruisers for close to base damage if you're hitting them with the right type of misile. Explosive missile against shield, or EM missile against armour will give you the damage you speak of, because of shield/armour resistances to these damage types. It might be more useful to try combination of thermal and kinetic missiles instead.

Frigates will take noticeably less damage from heavy missiles unless they have their MWD on, which is due to frigates' small signature radius. Because frigates are common target in low level missions, it can make sense to swap some of your heavy launchers to assault launchers, like others mentioned... since these light missiles will hit frigates better. Alternatively, if you fire heavy missiles from long range (40-50 km) it will cause the target frigates to chase you with their MWD on, which will allow heavy missiles to do more damage to them.

krilliante
Posted - 2005.09.10 03:48:00 - [16]
 

i just started doing lvl3s in a ferox a week ago (all new missile skills to lvl 3) went with 5 heavys and i concur with the originator of this topic they suck badly for hitting anything regardless of size/wether its got mwd on or not...really really crap dammage
replaced the 5 heavys with 5 assault launchers do about the same dammage and fire twice as quickly and cost almost a tenth as much for the missiles
Have done angel extrav/spy stash etc easily with 5 assault launchers...............

Sorja
11th Division
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2005.09.10 04:04:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Sorja on 10/09/2005 04:07:27
Originally by: j0sephine
Nah, they're quite okay (although with the launchers as they currently are, can be on the low side as far as damage over time goes)


Yes.
But no.

By the time he (or she Wink) has to face cruisers, frigs will still be there, and heavy missiles are just a major pain against frigs even with a painter, while on the other hand medium guns will always hit for full damage on any type of target for NPCing, which is my point, nothing more, nothing less.

When later on (hopefully) that player will get involved in PvP, the real trouble will start, because with heavies you have a real bad time killing anything smaller than a cruiser (and cruisers will be a pain too since Caldari ships have to use kinetic missiles or lose the damage bonus).
Just try to kill an assault frigate with the best missile spewing Caldari ship, the Cerberus, and you'll see it is much better to have guns that either do not hit at all or hit for full damage and can actually kill something, than missiles that always hit for ridiculous damage.

More: with guns, you have to opportunity to fit for the range you chose, namely blaster or rails for Caldari, while missiles do not have that opportunity: there are no close range heavies and assault launchers are... well...

Bah, I stop here, just wanted to voice a honest advice to someone who obviously is fairly new to the game.
I'm just out of an 8 hours ops, I'm pretty tired and really don't feel like getting in yet another missiles versus turrets argument.
That's why I wrote: see by yourself.


EDIT: do not judge your damage with missiles against low level rats, when you'll face 0.0 belts assault frigates/interceptors (in level 4 missions all the same), the gap between missiles and turrets will be a true nightmare.

Bodhisattvas
0utbreak
Posted - 2005.09.10 09:45:00 - [18]
 

Well.. I scanned a Harpy and a Cerberus in a complex. I was flying my Crow. I was able to take on the Harpy and kill it while the Cerberus "rained death" upon me... Laughing So much so, he warped off as the damage done to me was easily tanked...


So yeah, Heavys are just not cool against frigs.

Darling Hassasin
Posted - 2005.09.10 12:22:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Bodhisattvas
Well.. I scanned a Harpy and a Cerberus in a complex. I was flying my Crow. I was able to take on the Harpy and kill it while the Cerberus "rained death" upon me... Laughing So much so, he warped off as the damage done to me was easily tanked...


So yeah, Heavys are just not cool against frigs.


A fact that becomes more painfully obvious when using poot Caldari HACs that have 0 drone bays. (*yells a devs: Hello that was because back then missles were the uber antifig, whats the excuse now?] I think I ll start a thread.
Shocked

xenorx
0utbreak
Posted - 2005.09.10 14:56:00 - [20]
 

Quote:
When later on (hopefully) that player will get involved in PvP, the real trouble will start, because with heavies you have a real bad time killing anything smaller than a cruiser (and cruisers will be a pain too since Caldari ships have to use kinetic missiles or lose the damage bonus).
Just try to kill an assault frigate with the best missile spewing Caldari ship, the Cerberus, and you'll see it is much better to have guns that either do not hit at all or hit for full damage and can actually kill something, than missiles that always hit for ridiculous damage
.


very true. I tested against a vengance the other night. With 2 T2 painters lighting him up and his mwd running. I got hits with kinetic missiles for 38.1. Thermal got the best hits at 58.1 as it was his lowest resistance. Explosives got 11. I forget what the em did exactly but it was something like 18.

Pretty pathetic when I have already trained all the missile skills to lvl 4. Guess I will just park my cerb again and climb back into my zealot and WTFPWN him in one volley from my heavy pulses.

Please CCP do something about the missiles. I agree the Raven needed to be ballanced but not everyone flies a Raven. Heavy missiles are just screwed. They were a waste before the patch and they are even worse now.

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2005.09.10 15:02:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Valexia
The missiles base damage is 150, and yet I hit for 60? I'm hitting for 105 on a STATIONARY TARGET (warehouse), regardless of missile type.


scuse me. thats impossible. u will get a marked increase (at least 10%) when changing to kinetic missiles

i guess u are doing anti-guristas missions, so fit all kinetic missiles. if you aren't doing anti-guristas missions in a caracal, change to a caldari agent

Jennai
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2005.09.10 15:04:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Valexia
The missiles base damage is 150, and yet I hit for 60? I'm hitting for 105 on a STATIONARY TARGET (warehouse), regardless of missile type.


scuse me. thats impossible. u will get a marked increase (at least 10%) when changing to kinetic missiles

i guess u are doing anti-guristas missions, so fit all kinetic missiles. if you aren't doing anti-guristas missions in a caracal, change to a caldari agent


damage vs structures sucks no matter what missile damage you use because their sig radius is ridiculously small

Xianthar
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2005.09.12 18:59:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Xianthar on 12/09/2005 19:01:37
caracal setup for LVL 2's....you should do they very quick in this

5 x malkuth heavies...do the right dmg types for your target!!!
1 x 10nm AB II
1 x Med Shield Booster II
1 x Best Named Target Painter or tech II
1 x Sensor Booster II
2 x BCS I

paint anything smaller than a cruiser and kill it....depending on your skills you may wanna change the sensor booster for something else but i can hit with heavies at 80+km (sensor in carcal crap out at like what 50-60?)...basicly you should be able to shoot anything in a lvl 2 mission outside their range so you don't need to worry about taking much dmg....use the AB to keep them at range..with a few changes that should work for a few of the lvl 3 missions also...


EDIT: oh and i can hit frigs/drones in lvl 2's for 200-230dmg or so in that ship, and my skills are far from perfect.

Ralitge boyter
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.09.12 20:25:00 - [24]
 

Missiles are great, heavy missiles are actualy very very powerful.

The trick is as stated before, make sure you have the right damage type for your target. (running misions that is simple)
Train you skills, will it take a week or maybe even a few weeks, of course it will Smile

Don't worry we have all been there I have been trying to do lvl2 missions in a rifter (frigate) when I finaly was able to fly my Rupture (cruiser) I figgured I would have no problem. Second mission my Rupture goes BOOM !! Why? well because I didn't have the skills to fly it well nor the knowledge of how at least stay alive. Embarassed

Training missiles will take just as long as training any type of guns.... Missiles are something you need to get used to having been using them for a couple of months now I can tell you they are at least as good as other weapons... except for the mining lasers of course as nothing can beat those ugh

Jorev
The Scope
Posted - 2005.09.12 20:54:00 - [25]
 

Any skillpoint investment in missiles right now is in low bang-per-buck range. Who knows when/if that will change in the future. A lot of uncertainty.

My advice is to stop training missiles at this time. IF they ever become viable again, you can train them then. For now, train for a thorax/hybrids/blasters -- it is a joy to fly and GREAT bang for the training time. Amarr isn't bad either.

Many people who whine about Caldari/Minmatar have no way back, and you have to excuse their whining somewhat. However, if you character is rather new, and you will invest few months of training in missiles now, you have no right to complain, you have been warned.

Szordin
Posted - 2005.09.13 00:16:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Szordin on 13/09/2005 00:21:32
Edited by: Szordin on 13/09/2005 00:17:52
Well personally I like missiles.

The following worked for me but your mileage may very.
For lvl2s since there are fewer cruisers than frigs, I would suggest
4x1 or 3x2 assaults to heavies.

For levels 3s switch those around, so you have more Heavies than Assaults.

Also you want to train all missile skills to 3/4 as soon as possible, These being priority IMO, in no particular order.
Guided Missile Precision
Warhead upgrades
Missile bombardment
Launcher Operation
Light Missiles
Heavy Missiles
Target Navigation Prediction
Rapid Launch

And select the missile type based on your enemy. Always use the best missile on your targets.

Generally speaking:
EM for shields
explosive/kinetic for armor

Personally I think painting is worthless, and I carry a webber for then they get close.


 

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