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Dred 'Morte
New European Regiment
Blade.
Posted - 2005.09.03 11:01:00 - [1]
 

Two options:

1-Put back plates like they were (they got a 50% boost or something like that a few patches ago didnt it?).

2-(MY FAVOURITE) ADD A FRGGIN 3200mm Plate, strictly for battleships (not even BC can fit it)!!!

LaughingLaughing






DOH! Rolling Eyes

Denrace
Amarr
PURE Legion
Pure.
Posted - 2005.09.03 11:15:00 - [2]
 

How about...no?

Why does everyone complain about not being able to kill a plated ship?
You can fit plates aswell, and if one saves your ship - you dont come whining then do you.

Also, a big mofo of a plate (3200mm+) for BS is a great idea. That would be fantastic! Like a 5800HP bonus hehe YARRRR!!

Plates are FINE. Fix heavy missiles instead. Oh, and the Cerberus Laughing

TekRa
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.09.03 12:02:00 - [3]
 

plates are ok, it's fitting oversized plates to frigates/cruisers that is the problem (with no penalty). intys with 400mm plates that are just as good as AFrigs are getting stupid now.

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2005.09.03 12:02:00 - [4]
 

however, IMO, plates give armor tankers a huge advantage over shield tankers

either fix extenders, or nerf plates. your choice

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.09.03 12:06:00 - [5]
 

Plates should give sig radius boosts and inertia boosts (less agility).

End of story.

Diana Merris
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2005.09.03 13:34:00 - [6]
 

Or make the speed penalty a percent and have them add mass like afterburners do if you really fell that oversized plates are a problem.

/shrug

Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate
Posted - 2005.09.03 14:15:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: HippoKing
however, IMO, plates give armor tankers a huge advantage over shield tankers

either fix extenders, or nerf plates. your choice
apparantly you have never tried fitting plates, you sacrafice a hell of alot, and If you are smart enough, you know to to beat those as people using plates are resricted to using certain wepons...

R31D
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.09.03 15:02:00 - [8]
 

I was using 400mm plates before the +50% patch and I'd quite happily use them afterwards too (as would many other users) so that kind of wouldn't work

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2005.09.03 15:30:00 - [9]
 

Both shield extenders and plates are perfect now. Pre patch few people used them. The only change I would like to see are Xlarge extenders and plates.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.09.03 15:42:00 - [10]
 

"Both shield extenders and plates are perfect now. Pre patch few people used them."

And post patch nearly everyone uses plates on anything, and hardly anyone uses shield extenders on ships smaller than battlecruisers. (yes i know you can mount shield extender on a Tristan. one frigate capable of it is more of a proof how badly things are screwed with small shield expanders)

No, they are by no means "perfect" now :/

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2005.09.03 15:43:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Both shield extenders and plates are perfect now. Pre patch few people used them. The only change I would like to see are Xlarge extenders and plates.


Perfect? Not exactly, their HP values are okay.. but the fitting requirements should be lower for shield extenders. Shield Extenders could use a buff.. we need XL Extender too.

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.09.03 16:18:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Jim Raynor
Originally by: Pottsey
Both shield extenders and plates are perfect now. Pre patch few people used them. The only change I would like to see are Xlarge extenders and plates.


Perfect? Not exactly, their HP values are okay.. but the fitting requirements should be lower for shield extenders. Shield Extenders could use a buff.. we need XL Extender too.



well, I used to fly always plated inties, expecially usefull for EW and tackling

even some nasty FoF cruise missles couldnt insta gank you


HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2005.09.03 16:23:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: HippoKing on 03/09/2005 16:22:53
Originally by: Kaeten
Originally by: HippoKing
however, IMO, plates give armor tankers a huge advantage over shield tankers

either fix extenders, or nerf plates. your choice
apparantly you have never tried fitting plates, you sacrafice a hell of alot, and If you are smart enough, you know to to beat those as people using plates are resricted to using certain wepons...


apparantly you have never tried fitting extenders
the sacrifice for plates is a lot smaller than the sacrifice for fitting extenders: an oversized extender eats 2/3 of your CPU - and fitting smaller guns doesn't save anywhere near as much CPU as it saves PG. an oversized extender gimps a setup TOTALLY with a smaller boost to HP

KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2005.09.03 16:37:00 - [14]
 

Ok, i am going to need someone to help me out here. I am confused as to why I've noticed a lot of forums and players complain that BS don't have a large plate. I do agree that it's not large enough, but right now the system is complete. Frigs have 50/100, cruisers have 200/400, and BS have 800/1600. Just wondering why lots of people think BS should have 3 sized plates for it. Yes i also know that an 800 on a BS is not such a good idea. I think plates should go the way of cruise missiles when it comes to frigs, if it's meant for something bigger, you just can't do it. CCP could just say that the smaller ships don't have enough material for the oversized plates to hold on to or something to the effect.

Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
Posted - 2005.09.03 16:59:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: KrakizBad
Ok, i am going to need someone to help me out here. I am confused as to why I've noticed a lot of forums and players complain that BS don't have a large plate. I do agree that it's not large enough, but right now the system is complete. Frigs have 50/100, cruisers have 200/400, and BS have 800/1600. Just wondering why lots of people think BS should have 3 sized plates for it. Yes i also know that an 800 on a BS is not such a good idea. I think plates should go the way of cruise missiles when it comes to frigs, if it's meant for something bigger, you just can't do it. CCP could just say that the smaller ships don't have enough material for the oversized plates to hold on to or something to the effect.


Frig: 50mm/100mm/200mm and only 200mm is useful generally
Cruiser: 400mm/800mm and only 800mm is useful generally
Bs: 1600mm and more than one plate is a waste generally

You challenge that ? 800mm plate is a BS mod ? For 230 pg (t2 version) ? Then, why are you able to fit one on most cruisers with at most 1 power upgrade and still use medium sized weapons ? You are not confused at all Neutral

1400hp armor interceptors and 5500hp armor cruisers are maybe not penalized enough for fitting an oversized plate. But any penalty harsher than twice the current speed penalty only for oversized plates (400mm on frigs and 1600mm on cruisers) will not have any effect, as two smaller plates will be used instead of power upgrade + oversized plate.

Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2005.09.03 17:41:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 03/09/2005 17:42:56
ďapparantly you have never tried fitting extenders
the sacrifice for plates is a lot smaller than the sacrifice for fitting extenders: an oversized extender eats 2/3 of your CPU - and fitting smaller guns doesn't save anywhere near as much CPU as it saves PG. an oversized extender gimps a setup TOTALLY with a smaller boost to HPĒ


As I said many times before itís all down to the ship you fly. Using my ship 1 shield extender takes up 23% of the ships CPU and 18% of the PG leaving enough for weapons. While the same size plate takes up 48% of the PG making weapons and other modules hard to fit.

I would rather take 23% CPU used up for 1 extender over 48% PG for 1 plate. Sometimes plates are easier to fit sometimes extenders.





ďan oversized extender eats 2/3 of your CPU Ėď
At least you have free CPU on some ships an oversized plate takes up as much as 140% of the PG. Thatís 40% more PG then I have.





ď(yes i know you can mount shield extender on a Tristan. one frigate capable of it is more of a proof how badly things are screwed with small shield expanders)Ē
It wasnít 1 frigate I showed 1, T1 frigate and 2, T2 frigates that all worked better with extenders then plates. I really donít see any problems. I got extender to work on everything from Assault ships to Covert op ships.

You need to look at the ships job sometimes plates are better sometimes extenders. But both are fine and donít need changing. Perhaps small tweaks but I dont think the problem is as bad as most people say, not when the extender Assault ships can stand up to the plate Assault ships and the Covert Op extender ship beats the Covert Op plate ship. Then there are all the other setups that just dont work with plates.



Sorja
11th Division
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2005.09.04 04:20:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Both shield extenders and plates are perfect now. Pre patch few people used them. The only change I would like to see are Xlarge extenders and plates.


Not in the slightest.
Fitting requirements are overboard for extenders and plates give a much better HP boost that the passive regeneration doesn't compensate at all, even with you trying to compute the regeneration from both basic shields + extenders instead of that of the extender alone (even armortankers get the basic shield regen in the first place).

I'm not even getting in how convenient it is to fit a plate and still have the free medslots for web/scrambler/disruptor/whatever while shield tanking is hard pressed putting the medslots to good use, reason why I armor tank some Caldari ships.

Extenders still have their use as 'buffer' on larger ships, like the Cerberus (with assault launchers) or the Ferox which has a very good base shield recharge rate, but they are certainly not balanced compared to plates.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2005.09.04 08:29:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 04/09/2005 08:33:27
ďNot in the slightest.
Fitting requirements are overboard for extenders and plates give a much better HP boost that the passive regeneration doesn't compensate at all, even with you trying to compute the regeneration from both basic shields + extenders instead of that of the extender alone ď

How many times do I have to prove you wrong here passive regen more then makes up for the HP diffrance? I showed you assault ship with full weapon systems that have more shield hitpoints and more HP regen then a plate assault ship. I showed you Covert op ships with more shield hitpoints and more HP regen then a plate Covert op and both ships could do there jobs perfectly.

Using my ship 1 shield extender takes up 23% of the ships CPU and 18% of the PG leaving enough for weapons. While the same size plate takes up 48% of the PG making weapons and other modules hard to fit.

As for fitting requirements being overboard for extenders then tell me how 23% CPU for an extender is overboard but taking up 48% PG is considered ok for plates? There are also skills to lower the requirements for extender but none for plates. I also dont have problems fitting extenders and all my ships modules. So requirements are ok.





ď(even armortankers get the basic shield regen in the first place).ĒĒ
Your comparing 10HP regen on an armor tank to 100hp+ regen on a shield tank.

Then there are real battles take a Dominix V Raven, no gank setup the plate ship has to kill the target in 3 or 4 minuets or its dead. The passive shield tank can stay there 24/7 all week 1v1 and the shields never drop.

Every single battle I have ever done has the passive shield tank lasting longer then the plate ship. In fight club my passive tank lasted about 5 times longer then the plate ships against a T2 gank ship with large T2 weapons. There are times when plates are better like fleet battles but I dont do that.

Surly if the passive shield regen lets you tank ships none stop while the plate ships can only last 3 minuets then the passive regen is not useless. You keep saying passive regen doesnít compensate for less hitpoints, it about time you proved it. Explain how 90 to 120+ HP regen is useless. The average regen gives over 18k shields back in the average length battle. So Explain how 18k+ shields back dureing the battle is not usefull. That 18k+ more then makes up for the hitpoints difference between plates and shields.






I'm not even getting in how convenient it is to fit a plate and still have the free medslots for web/scrambler/disruptor/whatever while shield tanking is hard pressed putting the medslots to good use, reason why I armor tank some Caldari ships.

You missing the cap regen problems plate ships have. Once you fit plates and a few midslot cap recharge modules to run your stuff and weapons you donít have slots free to run the modules you want. Then you have to fit PG boosts in more slots as you plates are taking up lots of PG. While the shield tank module that boost hitpoints also boost cap regen and PG so you get 3 for 1 in 1 module. No cap recharge and no PG modules needed in extra slots means youíre free to fit other stuff.

Passive shield tanks can use high cap draining setups like Cap neutralizeís while plate ships donít have enough cap regen to run large weapons none stop. In the same way its hard to run EW setups with a passive shield tank its hard to run damage mods and Cap neutralizeís on a passive plate tank.

Then there is resistance the passive shield tank can add 30% to all resistance modules while the plate ship is stuck at 20% to all resistance giving the shield tank more resistance.

Both plates and extenders have a different set of advantages and disadvantage and thatís how it should be. I donít want any more balancing to make them similar.

Considering the amount of ships and ship setups that work well with extender ships I donít think the is a problem.

TuRtLe HeAd
Apocalypse Enterprises
Posted - 2005.09.04 08:38:00 - [19]
 

Plates were increased in an attempt to increase the Time of engagments.

All the increase has done is made them better for everyone. I fitted 400mm Plates to ceptors Before And After Patch, Guess what, so did every one else. All its done is drawn out engagements a bit longer which was the over goal.

Theres nothing wrong with them in my opinion.

xOm3gAx
Caldari
Stain of Mind
Posted - 2005.09.04 08:42:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: TekRa
plates are ok, it's fitting oversized plates to frigates/cruisers that is the problem (with no penalty). intys with 400mm plates that are just as good as AFrigs are getting stupid now.


i actually agree with this and yes i do fly an inty and an af... puttin the plate on kinda kills the reason i got the af in the first place. Plates should only be nerfed slightly in the way that a 400mm wont fit on a frig. 200mm's are ok though. and yes shield extenders need love... lots of love... like 2x what they give now =) though id settle for 1.5x

Jon Xylur
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2005.09.04 10:50:00 - [21]
 

Enough with tthe nerfing. Plates are good. Shields need a bost. CCP has wanted cruisers tobe better and with 1600mm plate they are. Shields just need to be better too. I do likr the idea of 3200mm plate tho

Dred 'Morte
New European Regiment
Blade.
Posted - 2005.09.04 11:34:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 04/09/2005 11:35:31
I dont use plates and iv never been killed by one fyi.

I did however, use a Duramaller when i was young in this game, at that time, very few ppl knew the plate maller trick, i was one of the first to use it. It brings me good memories, thats why i dont want them nerfed, thats why i suggest 3200, just like cruisers can get a lot of HP with 1600 and frigs with 400, battleships could get over 10k with one 3200mm plate. I dont call that nerf, i call that balance!

As for giving some love to shield extenders, im all for it! One of the reasons caldari cruisers (and tech II) suck is because their defense (shields) arent good enough to make up for the lack of damage they do (They have no dmg bonus to rails and missiles totaly suck against undersized targets).

Orius Nix
Posted - 2005.09.04 11:50:00 - [23]
 

Plates need to be fixed like they did ab's and mwd's, you can't fit oversized. a 1600mm in a cruiser is a bit extreme.

VILA Restal
Gallente
Blake's 7 Reunion
Posted - 2005.09.04 12:03:00 - [24]
 

1600mm plates being available for cruisers make cruisers more likely to be seen in small and large fleet engagements.

We'll be back to battleships and frigates only again if they are not allowed.

LUKEC
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.09.04 12:13:00 - [25]
 

Plates are fine as far as u can fit them. And deimos can't. So they are not fine.
Noob(9mil sp) in munin with 1600mm nano plate and t1 guns and 2x WCS pwn deimos(~20mil sp) :) Really nice, no comment.

Oh and it was not me in deimos, but a fix pilot.

Dred 'Morte
New European Regiment
Blade.
Posted - 2005.09.04 13:00:00 - [26]
 

Oh yaa i can see a noob in this topic LUKEC... you know, even a Taranis can beat a Armageddon in the right situation you know? Rolling Eyes

friggin *******s

R31D
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.09.04 14:51:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Pottsey

ď(even armortankers get the basic shield regen in the first place).ĒĒ
Your comparing 10HP regen on an armor tank to 100hp+ regen on a shield tank.

Then there are real battles take a Dominix V Raven, no gank setup the plate ship has to kill the target in 3 or 4 minuets or its dead. The passive shield tank can stay there 24/7 all week 1v1 and the shields never drop.

Every single battle I have ever done has the passive shield tank lasting longer then the plate ship. In fight club my passive tank lasted about 5 times longer then the plate ships against a T2 gank ship with large T2 weapons. There are times when plates are better like fleet battles but I dont do that.

Surly if the passive shield regen lets you tank ships none stop while the plate ships can only last 3 minuets then the passive regen is not useless. You keep saying passive regen doesnít compensate for less hitpoints, it about time you proved it. Explain how 90 to 120+ HP regen is useless. The average regen gives over 18k shields back in the average length battle. So Explain how 18k+ shields back dureing the battle is not usefull. That 18k+ more then makes up for the hitpoints difference between plates and shields.


I really, really, want to know your Raven setup Pottsey

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2005.09.04 15:01:00 - [28]
 

"I really, really, want to know your Raven setup Pottsey"
I donít fly a Raven I fly a Domi I meant an extender Domi V a normal active tank Raven and a plate Domi against a normal active tank Raven. The extender domi can sit there tanking all day while the plate domi would die over time without damage mods. Thatís why I donít think the passive regen is useless.

If I was in a Raven I might do something like this high slots, 6 cruise launchers, mid 4 large t2 extenders, 1 EM hardnre, 1 shield recharger.
Low Shield Relays. I would also look at a Invulnerability field setup with PDS modules over relays.



j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.09.04 15:09:00 - [29]
 

"It wasnít 1 frigate I showed 1, T1 frigate and 2, T2 frigates that all worked better with extenders then plates. I really donít see any problems."

That's what i meant: that you got a semi-useful shield extender setup on one _tech.1_ frigate out of how many of them is out there..?

You have to admit the situation where tech.1 module intended for tech.1 frigates (small shield extender) appears completely useless on all these frigates, and when tech.1 module intended for small cruisers can be used on _one_ tech.1 frigate, while armour plate intended for the same small cruisers is useful for way many more of these tech.1 frigates... that's a joke. As is saying one doesn't really see any problems with that situation. :/

Next thing i know we're all gonna pretend 50mm & 100mm armour plates are useful, too... >>;;

Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2005.09.04 16:09:00 - [30]
 

Plates add HP to a ship and therefore add to its mass. This should be shown in an impact to inertia/agility.


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