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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2005.08.22 01:39:00 - [1]
 

I love the missile changes. We all know the Caldari ships need a bit of tweakage but tomB will have that covered soon hopefully. A lot of people complain about their ravens and I just can't see why but to shut them up would a 7th launcher point give it any uber advantages over say.. a megathron that has 7 turret points?

Anyone run the DPS numbers please? 7 Cruise or 7 Siege would make you compromise your current builds but might give that extra oompf. It might still have its disadvantages ( missile space etc ). I just don't know if the DPS would be too much.

Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2005.08.22 15:25:00 - [2]
 

the raven is still a closerange ship.

while siegs still do good dmg to bses, only to them tho, cruise missiles do, next to 425mm and 1400`s, kind off ****y dmg.

my advice: use scorp for longrange, and ur raven for close range.

cruisemissiles alone dont makes a raven a good pvp ship ;)

Vordor
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.08.22 16:39:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Vordor on 22/08/2005 16:39:55
Here you go Raven VS APOC

Raven Skills:
launcher operation 5
Missile Bombardment 4
Missile Projection 4
Rapid Launch 5
Target Navigation Prediction 4
Warhead upgrades 4
Guided Missile precesion 4
Torpedo 5
Torpedo Sepcialization 4
Caldari BS 3

Apoc going at 200 m/s sig radius is 400 m.

Raven damage on apoc per salvo is 5386.5 using jageurnat torps. = 335 DPS ...
Less resistance = 4040 damage per salvo at 251 DPS.

With named launchers + 1 named ballistic contorl u get 390 DPS and 293 resisted DPS.

If u fit 7 named launchers u get 6284.25 per salvo and 458.2 DPS and 4713 resisted and 341.8 DPS resisted.

---------------------------------------------------------
Hope this data helps :) i used my combat excel sheet which takes into account all bonuses skills, ROF etc.... might need some tweaking but u should get very close results 2 the above Cool

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2005.08.22 20:58:00 - [4]
 

I think a 7th might not be asking too much with those numbers. Hell its only 100dps so or more at 7 than a thorax is atm.

Sirial Soulfly
Posted - 2005.08.23 10:02:00 - [5]
 

If the normal raven gets a 7th missile launcher hardpoint then the cn raven should get a 6th low slot.

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2005.08.24 01:59:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Sirial Soulfly
If the normal raven gets a 7th missile launcher hardpoint then the cn raven should get a 6th low slot.


or more powergrid Wink

Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:36:00 - [7]
 

A 7th launcher slot would just result in the raven being massively nerfed back into the Stone Age - trust me on this one. I can already take out a battleship's shields in one volley using tech 2 siege and 4 ballistics; with a 9.17-second rate of fire, a ballistic-setup raven will utterly OWN just about anything at short range. A 7th launcher slot would be insanely unbalancing considering what the raven can already do when properly set up.

IMHO, the only thing about the raven that needs tweaking atm is damage vs. cruisers (needs to be increased somewhat), though a case could be made for making cruise missile two-defender kills instead of the current one-defender kill.

Vordor
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.08.24 07:29:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Wrayeth
A 7th launcher slot would just result in the raven being massively nerfed back into the Stone Age - trust me on this one. I can already take out a battleship's shields in one volley using tech 2 siege and 4 ballistics; with a 9.17-second rate of fire, a ballistic-setup raven will utterly OWN just about anything at short range. A 7th launcher slot would be insanely unbalancing considering what the raven can already do when properly set up.

IMHO, the only thing about the raven that needs tweaking atm is damage vs. cruisers (needs to be increased somewhat), though a case could be made for making cruise missile two-defender kills instead of the current one-defender kill.


I agree, raven is by far a deadly BS at close range vs other BS ..... just got my geddon ***ed at close range vs a good setup raven.
What raven lacks in ROF more than compensates with massive damage per salvo .... And yah vs cruiser might need a look ....

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2005.08.24 20:39:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Wrayeth
A 7th launcher slot would just result in the raven being massively nerfed back into the Stone Age - trust me on this one. I can already take out a battleship's shields in one volley using tech 2 siege and 4 ballistics; with a 9.17-second rate of fire, a ballistic-setup raven will utterly OWN just about anything at short range. A 7th launcher slot would be insanely unbalancing considering what the raven can already do when properly set up.

IMHO, the only thing about the raven that needs tweaking atm is damage vs. cruisers (needs to be increased somewhat), though a case could be made for making cruise missile two-defender kills instead of the current one-defender kill.


fair enough

Ronin Crag
Posted - 2005.08.30 06:24:00 - [10]
 

How about making the Raven more versatile since it's lost alot of what made it an attractive BS in the first place ?

Allow same type weapons to be used in all 8 high slots

Either 8 launchers OR 8 Hybrid guns, or a mix of the two.

But split the ship bonuses -

Give only half the missile bonuses the Raven currently has.

Give the Raven half the hybrid gun bonuses the other hybrid gun battleships normally get.

Overall this would probably be a nerf to the raven but it would be counteracted somewhat by it's shield tanking ability. And since Cardari are sposed to be users of both missiles AND hybrid guns, they would have a ship that allow them to fulfill those abilities. The Scorp is mostly an EW and support platform anyways.

Just a thought and more than likely incorrect, buy hey ! an incorrect thought is better than no thought at all.


K Shara
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.08.30 09:34:00 - [11]
 

even though im only caldari i disagree.

if anything they should improve damamge against smaller targets and make cruise missiles take 2 defenders

Ravens do good tanks / good gank.

But a tech 2 equiped geddon / apoc will still wtfpwn a tanked raven.

I know ive tested it. and thats with 11k shields and good res.

SpeedoMan
Caldari
Posted - 2005.08.31 17:01:00 - [12]
 

wtf would anyone want to make any missile take 2 defenders to kill? They [defenders] already suck bad enough post-nerf, and can't hit their incoming targets fast enough as it is. Defense against missiles was one thing that balanced them out, being 100% effective (smartbombs, defenders, warping away or outrunning them). Now missile defense with smartbombs is impossible. Defenders are effective about 50% of the time. You can't outrun missiles anymore unless you're in a fast inty. All that's left is warping away.

The point is, no, defenders should always kill every incoming missile type in 1 hit. I'll go even farther to say they should have a launcher RoF bonus attached to them, go faster & farther, and fire automatically/continuously. Defenders need love.

Raven with 8/8 flex setup? HAR, don't I wish? Never would happen. I don't even think we'd get a 7/7 flex setup out of CCP at this point, tho I'd certainly like to have that too. By "flex setup" I mean # of launchers & turrets. The Scorp just does NOT do offense well, compared to all other BS; thus, the Raven has to be the Caldari's only real "offensive" BS. Given the racial duality of Caldari for both long-range rails & missiles, this means BOTH of these ideas have to be crammed into a single ship, unless CCP is going to give the Caldari a "tier 3" (NOT tech 3, mind you!) BS with a 7-8 hi-slot turret layout. A "Shrike" or "Vulture" perhaps?

Anyways, point is, until then, Raven needs to be a flex setup ship like the Ferox is now, with it's 5/5 flex setup for launchers/turrets. Raven now has a 6/4 launcher/turret setup and an 8/6/5 layout. 5% missile RoF and 10% missile velocity bonus. Mix it up a bit instead... 6/6 flex setup for hi-slot weapons, 8/6/5 slot layout, 10% missile RoF bonus, 10% hybrid range bonus.

Lastly, NONE of the current problems would exist if CCP hadn't introduced Ballistic Control Mods into the game, especially as stackable mods (and if they had properly addressed missile agility). Anyone wants to know the real reason why Ravens supposedly were "too good" at farming L4 missions and suicide kessies got out of control, it's stacking BCS. None of the anti-caldari angst, none of the nerf, none of the current backlash for the nerf... if not for BCS's being put into the game. BUT, even with stacking BCS, caldari ships (Raven/Kestrel) weren't beating anyone else in DPS or DOT. It was the initial volley that enabled the Kamikaze Kestrels, and torps TRACKING close fast frigs that was the problem. The nerf they did was complete overkill.

I don't think Raven's were "too good", but if CCP is going to insist that, then the proper way to deal with it is not by nerfing missiles or nerfing the raven, but by generalizing it, as mentioned above. Mix the bonuses between hybrids & missiles, and mix the slot layout to a "flex setup" eg the Ferox. 6/6 or 7/7 launcher/turrets, in an 8/6/5 setup.

This leads into another issue, and that's module stacking. Should any ship be able to stack a full load of lo-slot damage mods? Where's the compensation for Caldari with ~half the low slots of Amarr/Gallente ships, and thus less damage potential?

Cheechako
Contraband Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2005.09.01 20:04:00 - [13]
 

I really hope that the Caldari get a rail BS. I mean, I've trained up a fair amount of points in Gunnery for the harpy and ferox.... but I'm not seeing a point in going beyond that. I don't really want to fly an Eagle but I'd love to put points in for a Caldari Rail BS.

Darkside101
Caldari
Togakure Technologies
Posted - 2005.09.04 13:22:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Darkside101 on 04/09/2005 13:22:27

Vordor m8, WTF??????
I think your doing somethng very wrong with your calculations,

I have all the relevent skills at 4/5 and im only getting 720 points of damage per missile, 6x720 = 4320 dmg per volly, but i am getting this every 8.5 seconds aprox with t2 seige

that gives an unmodified DPS of 508

pls could you tell me how your doing it Shocked

yarrYARRRR!!


 

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