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GayL0rd
Gallente
Gobshyte Inc.
Posted - 2005.08.04 11:51:00 - [61]
 

The skill system in Eve is the best thought out system I have ever seen in a game like this.
Not only are there diminising returns for each level trained but skillpoints can be offsett by newer players just using more numbers or better tactics in PvP.

For most older players, at any one time only a fraction of the total skillpoints are being used in a certain situation or a ship at a time. Needless to say, BS 5 wont help at all in an inty fight. Likewise, prod eff 5 + 5mills in guns is equally as good as prod eff5 + 1K in guns for a guy compeating in the market in producing stuff.

The only apparent barrier I see is the Assault frigs/cruiser which take a lot of training to do but they can easylly be countered by a low skillpoint character in BS anyway, using the correct setup.

Isk and modules are what matter most in Eve. Isk is easy to come by now, and most TechII items are only marginally better than the best named modules so the huge training time spent on those by older players is not that much of a gain really. You can only fly 1 ship at a time and the mods in the hangar dont matter much.

Just by one guy fitting a TechII damage mods while a nother fits a wcs, negates/makes up for ALL the training the wcs ***** spent on training for tech II L guns if the guys would fight.

As long as people can use the nesessary modules (only takes a few levels) numbers, loadouts, tactics and player experience play a much bigger role in PvP than ever skillpoints. Let alone total number of skillpoints. And most industry/trade characters can in short time be equally as efficient as experienced ones.

Amox
Amarr
United Outworlders Corporation
Posted - 2005.08.04 12:05:00 - [62]
 

I say leave it the way it is.

By giving new players more skill or letting them learn skills faster you are just opening the door for griefers to get the skills faster needed to do the little dirty things they like to do. Then repete the process even faster.

Nope leave the skill system alone.

Eyeshadow
Caldari
The xDEATHx Squadron
Posted - 2005.08.04 12:17:00 - [63]
 

The only thing i would add to the new character start up is some way of acquiring the basic skills such as learning, mechanic, hull upgrades, basic electronic + engineering skills, navigation, afterburner etc. Make them early on mission rewards or something. Maybe have another set of 10 missions after the tutorial that rewards the newbie with low level skills. Atleast then they wont need to grind in their newb ship for isk just to buy the most basic of skills

Other than that i think it works good now. Hand holding someone through the first month with ISK/faster skill training or anything like that would be a bad idea imo

Layrex
Caldari
Posted - 2005.08.04 12:36:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Layrex on 04/08/2005 12:38:04
Originally by: SengH
I was thinking about this as one of my friends just asked about starting to play EVE. TBH I think the most important thing for player retention in eve is your first CEO of your first player corp. This probably determines peoples path towards empire or towards 0.0 or whether they leave the game altogether... just my 2c


I agree with that alot. My first corp leader, while a pretty stern guy, gave me the foot-up and support I needed when I first began playing. I'm now pvp'ing in low sec and 0.0 having lost contact with my first corp, but i'll never forget the help he gave me.

Admiral Pieg
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.08.04 13:18:00 - [65]
 

We all had a rough start with little to no options available to us, true. But just because it was like that for us doesnt mean it should be for everyone. My friend started a new character and frankly im not sure what he should do. When i look back at my first two months i actually didnt do anything. I simply logged in, trained a skill and logged out.

"learning the game" doesnt take more then a week for those whom arent mentally ******ed. And thats about the time you realize character development and progression in eve is so slow its nearly non existant for new players.

I tried to get two mates playing eve. They were both intrigued by its depth and complexity, yet they couldnt keep their interest up for more then a few days.

I say give new players the ability to train skills at 10x speed until their first million sp are trained. If eve ever wants more then 60k subscribers (wich is laughable in mmo terms) they need to change things.

Summersnow
Posted - 2005.08.04 13:50:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: WizzkidyNow I will let you into a little problem of mine - I played solo when I first started EVE (a month ago) but at some point I came accross a corp that wanted to take me on even as a newbie (great I thought) and all was dandy! for the first month. Then we get some random corp wardec us for no reason (we are a mining corp) and the CEO asks why? - They say its just a random thing? I mean FFS? A random wardec? nice (3/4 of our corp are newbie's)
[/quote



You can return to your NPC corp since you can not be wardec'd while in an npc corp.

You could also advertise for a few mercs, maybe find a few pvp specialists that would jump at the oportunity to nuke the bejebus out of a few griefers :-p

Carrde
Caldari
Unlucky For Some
Posted - 2005.08.04 13:54:00 - [67]
 

More skills points doesn't mean total and utter ownage.

There's more to PVP than just playing space top trumps (you've got hybrids level 5... you win). The ship setups themselves are a game of stone, paper, scissors. If you employ a bit of ingenuity and do some reaserch on equipping each ship type in a manner of different ways you'd be surprised how much of a fight you can put up. (ie. The mistake most new players make in heading straight for a Raven thinking they'll be pwning entire systems when they fit it out with 6 Civilian Gattling guns ;))

Even non-pvp newbies can make a decent amount of headway in the game given a bit of patience. Two of my corp mates who have been playing just over 3 months and have just broken the billion isk mark (between them) last week thanks to some concerntrated effort on mining and manufacturing. And thats not from big group mining sessions in low sec.. thats just the two of them finding profitable belts (.6 and upwards) and knowing where and what to sell.

Part of the reason I stuck with Eve is because it wasn't 'dumbed down'. When you start out life sucks. Isk is hard to come by and everyone is bigger than you. However, your patience is rewarded as you slowly get a grip on the game and start to claw your way towards ever more profitable and risky ventures.

Don't change a thing.. leave it as is. Eve will always appeal to a specific kind of player who is looking for a specific kind of gameplay experience. It will never have the mass appeal of WoW or Everquest.. but perhaps thats not such a bad thing as long as the trickle of new players remains. Whilst it's true that Eve doesn't attract a massive amount of new players, I suspect it loses far less per week than the big boys. In fact I'd love to know what the average player retention time is.

The best advertising Eve can ever get is 'word of mouth'. I know I've personally dragged at least 7 new players into the game just on recommendation (hey CCP!.. where's my free t-shirt! ;)) and they are all total and utter Eve addicts. Long live Eve.. I love it for all it's many perfections and imperfections.

Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2005.08.04 15:34:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Wizzkidy
Edited by: Wizzkidy on 04/08/2005 07:25:03
I'm new to the game myself, and although I have found the game to be fun :) I must say that its not very easy to start in this game at all. I have found myself having to very much persist in the day to day grinding to make ISK (which isn't a bad thing I suppose) but also have come accross people that are just so highly skilled in battle that I have no chance what-so-ever. You might think "But you need to build up and it WILL take you ages - get use to it newbie" - and fair enough :)

Now I will let you into a little problem of mine - I played solo when I first started EVE (a month ago) but at some point I came accross a corp that wanted to take me on even as a newbie (great I thought) and all was dandy! for the first month. Then we get some random corp wardec us for no reason (we are a mining corp) and the CEO asks why? - They say its just a random thing? I mean FFS? A random wardec? nice (3/4 of our corp are newbie's)



Random Wardec's happens, you make yourself available for such once you leave your school corp to join a player one. However, you can work around it by use the game mechancis to your adventage. Not quite what this thread is about so you should ask for help vs such in own thread, maybe in another forum section as well.

Originally by: Wizzkidy

Now these guys (there are only 4 of them) must be pritty skilled players as there using t2 weapons etc.... I do not stand a chace agaist these people so most of the time just have to stay docked around or home HQ because I just can't do anything :/ Yes I do go out in me omen now and again (I have already lost 2) and I aint taking my apoc (for mining) out cause I just aint got the skills to use it in battle.

So for me the game is becoming really quite annyoing atm :( I mean its good but I just can't fight all these people with loads of skills. Its just a waste of my time and ships :(



So, your rant is not actually about what the thread is about? About newbies should start out with more skills (adventage), but that there is players that outclass you that can wardec your corp and you feel you can't do anything about it? Well, to do any about that, would mean to make all players just as skilled, which wont happen.


Originally by: Wizzkidy

Yes I would like to see a certain increase in skills for newbies. Nothing major but maybe a little decrease in the time for lvl 3 and 4 skills? (I dont know) but for me I will have to play the game for ages untill I can even match some of these dudes. and by then there going to be even futher up the ladder on skills and so I doubt I will have a chance :(


Tell you what, there is tons of skills I havent trained yet, and who still need to be trained to level 3, 4 and eventually level 5. Why should a newbie player get that adventage? There is a lot of older players that still got tons of skills to train as well. New players of today have it so much better than those who started out far back, heck older players cleared a path for new players to get a easy start.


Arcticblue2
Gallente
Nordic Freelancers inc
Posted - 2005.08.04 16:09:00 - [69]
 

Well one thing that I tought was important when I started playing this game was the backing up from my "corp" friends in CAS (noobcorp) while we where not a real corp we where a group of friends who helped eachother, like one guy had a hauler and the rest of us groupmined like hell to make some isk, another had good refiningskills and we all gained from that.

infact we where so close that I really really did not want to leave CAS just because they did not want to, in the end I did join up a friend who had left CAS to help him create a corp.

I also managed to drag some of the friends from CAS into that corp and we later formed a Freelancer corp (since we are freelancers by heart).

Even today I try to help out new players into the game with advices or equipment and even sometimes isk but I usually don't respond to begging for isk.
Happen from time to time that new players contact me ingame and ask for advices.

THAT is in my opinion the best side of EVE, the playerbase have always been very helpful to new players, in CAS I was in the first few days very reluctant to ask for help so I ended up not training skills the first 3 days to I actually did learn how to.
I also got to learn what to train first (trainingskills) from fellow members of CAS, and eventually it became a nice chat there.

I don't think we need to speed up trainingtime for new players, part of the experience is to learn how to use the stuff... before using it (or loosing it).

One example is how many new players rush to get Battleship while they really don't have the skills to operate one and quite often loose it and also loose most of their isk and such.

Hutch Valence
Posted - 2005.08.04 18:20:00 - [70]
 

Newb here (3 weeks since I started).

In terms of deciding which skills to learn, I've been totally driven by short-term goals.

First, I picked up some of the Learning skills, based on advice I found on this site.

Then, I decided to get Caldari Frigate III so I could drive a Merlin. (On the way, doing missions so as to afford the ship and new equipment).

Then, I decided on which modules I wanted (light missiles, shield hardener, afterburner, etc), and picked up the skills required to make the modules work.

The tutorial guides the newb through most of the stuff they need to know to get started. Mining (if that's your bag), fighting with NPCs, using the Market and the Reprocessor. Buying insurance for your first non-rookie vessel.

Finding NPC agents to give you missions is just a matter of exploration.

I can't remember if the tutorial covers cloning, but that interface is so simple that it's almost not necessary.

Of course, I've made some newbie mistakes, like how it took me a week to figure out that you can reload your guns via the right-click menu.

But all newbs have to figure out some stuff for themselves. How else will they gain any ownership of their game experience?

mimik
Posted - 2005.08.04 18:29:00 - [71]
 

personally i think ccp have done a pretty good job with changes they have made for new players.

while i understand the gripes from new players that they will always be x number of skillpoints behind someone who has beeen playing the game for a year longer or two years longer this does not stop anyone from playing and enjoying the game. i've been playing eve for around 18 months now and there are players with 15-20mill skill points more than me, that doesn't stop me doing what i want to do in game.

two concerns i would have for the people suggesting different ways to boost new characters ;

if u started a new character say 2 weeks before a change was introduced u might end up with situation that someone creating a new character could actually be ahead of u.

the main thing is though around balance. not the favourite word on these forums at times but relevant here. while i was working my way through the game at first i found that the rate i was able to train new skills and the rate i was able to make the money i needed to take advantage of the ships and mods i could now use was fairly good. theres not alot of point accelerating skills if people dont have the isk to use them. in addition working your way through using lower level ships and modules helps give u a better understanding of game mechanics. give someone who aint played the game for long the skills to use a BS and money to afford one and that BS aint likely to last long.

GoGo Yubari
Veto.
Posted - 2005.08.04 18:43:00 - [72]
 

My one advice to anyone starting out is ...

Use the knowledge that is around you and choose something specialize in. If you keep to it, you will bridge the skillpoint gap as fast as possible.

Moghydin
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.08.04 19:40:00 - [73]
 

I'm relatively new to this game and I can say, that the game is tilted very much in favor of veteran players. 1-st of all, the hardcore nature of PvP in Eve can mean for the new guy 2 things: 1-st fly crappy ship for a very long time or 2-nd risk putting as much as you can into the best ship you can afford, but risk losing it to some trigger-happy egomaniac and start completely from the scratch again. More and more new toys are added for the veterans and this makes game harder and harder for newbs. As was said, tech II staff means that lvl 5 skill is not a 5% increase, but a gate to some "uber" staff. Freighters now can earn mega-corps 100-s of millions per hour and completely destroy trade routes, thus eliminating entire profession - NPC trading, the profession that was most popular with newer players. And now we hear the demands for tech II battleships and tech III staff. If this is implemented, the gap between vets and new players will become so huge, that it'll create something like 2 different societies , one - of the uber veterans and another of the "lowly" n00bs. In this case, all high reward zones will be closed before the new guys and i doubt anyone of the new pilots will find some fun in the game.

Corey Grim
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.08.04 20:00:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Corey Grim on 04/08/2005 20:26:28
Originally by: Moghydin
I'm relatively new to this game and I can say, that the game is tilted very much in favor of veteran players. 1-st of all, the hardcore nature of PvP in Eve can mean for the new guy 2 things: 1-st fly crappy ship for a very long time or 2-nd risk putting as much as you can into the best ship you can afford, but risk losing it to some trigger-happy egomaniac and start completely from the scratch again. More and more new toys are added for the veterans and this makes game harder and harder for newbs. As was said, tech II staff means that lvl 5 skill is not a 5% increase, but a gate to some "uber" staff. Freighters now can earn mega-corps 100-s of millions per hour and completely destroy trade routes, thus eliminating entire profession - NPC trading, the profession that was most popular with newer players. And now we hear the demands for tech II battleships and tech III staff. If this is implemented, the gap between vets and new players will become so huge, that it'll create something like 2 different societies , one - of the uber veterans and another of the "lowly" n00bs. In this case, all high reward zones will be closed before the new guys and i doubt anyone of the new pilots will find some fun in the game.


WHOA! hmm..... i think that one must see whole picture before making that kind of statement. im newb my self and i see ur point but what i wonder is that there is only bad and negative things in it... i cant understand why u think that there is 2 groups vets and noobs coz its not that black & white imo. i have participated some pvp and i fitted our team well i losed ships yes but i actually gained experience and was in some of the killmails this gaem is imo about TEAMWORK and good nerves yes u cant go 0.0 alone but there is not many ppl (vets) who are so crazy to do that anyways coz there is TEAMS. about that freighter problem errr... sry but imo ur wrong look at this thread Linkage read it pay attention what Oveur sayed earlier when freighters werent available. be happy think about some flowers and stop doing things the hard way :)

Edit: oh and this too Linkage (more freighter discussion :)

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2005.08.04 20:17:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 04/08/2005 20:19:16
I am a newb myself and having been a newb, I support the following:

1. Leave the skill system alone.

2. More tutorials that lead players to acquire necessity skills to pilot other ships, mining, hauling, etc., Probably, 3-5 sets of newb agents to do that, which will leave players fullfilled for 14-days. Alts can opt to skip the newbs agents after the initial ones though since they will know what skills to look for.

My comments:
1. As for veteran players, I think it is hard for them to be more uber, in the sense being able to pilot more powerful ships. If there are any uber ship, e.g. dreadnoughts, only the older fighters will have to train like mad to access them, leaving some of their other skills to be under-developed. Newer players will of course have to specialise. Besides, in all fleet/naval battles, everyone has duties to fullfilled. Even chefs are important too. Newb in frigates or interceptors can still create headaches for dreadnoughts, or keeping other small ships busy so they do not fullfill their objectives.

2. The only way to make it easier for newbs to survive is too stay at empire until they are ready to explore 0.0, and having more vets to occupy 0.0 space. This should include pirates to be fully busy in 0.0 spaces rather than destroying haulers near newb spaces, i.e. 0.4 area. The only problem that I see at the moment is the lack of interests in 0.0 spaces as it is mainly controlled by alliances, or due to other reasons that make them inaccessible by non-alliance members. To put it simply, it is either you are in alliances to go to 0.0 or you will just have to stay in empire, as the risk of sneaking into 0.0 space may not be worth the reward. Something must be done to make 0.0 more of a partyland rather than hazardland. That is what methinks.

Moghydin
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.08.04 20:42:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Corey Grim

i cant understand why u think that there is 2 groups vets and noobs coz its not that black & white imo.


Look around and you understand. Leading PvP corporations have minimum 4-10 mil skill points requirements. These corporations control most alliances and these alliances control access to most profitable zones in Eve.
About newb's role in PvP. It is fun, but for a short time only. You will understand that you are expandable, replacable and, in summary, not that important (this is by no means directed at you personally). It can be fun to tackle, but wouldn't being a main dmg dealer or sniper be more fun? In short, you only have support roles open. It is fun, but it's untill you understand that you are just another small wheel in a big machine.

OffBeaT
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.08.04 23:10:00 - [77]
 

Amin bro!

in the old days you would of been out there fighting and holding your own if you realy had skill too do it. but not today bro, the old farts dont wont a fair fight or fighting chance for you noobs.. Razz


Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2005.08.04 23:37:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Moghydin
I'm relatively new to this game and I can say, that the game is tilted very much in favor of veteran players. 1-st of all, the hardcore nature of PvP in Eve can mean for the new guy 2 things: 1-st fly crappy ship for a very long time or 2-nd risk putting as much as you can into the best ship you can afford, but risk losing it to some trigger-happy egomaniac and start completely from the scratch again.



Tell you what, the old players of today did fly these crappy ships, did pvp in these crappy ships, and the only difference between them now and a new player is they got way more to lose in pvp. EVE isnt a solo-game. In our Corp we got old and new players, and working together is they keyword. People who cry about what they can't do doesn't bother focus on what they can do. It takes little skills to be a tackler in pvp, EW support and such.
As for flying "crappy" ships, Im amazed how fast new players of today get into Interceptors, Assault ships, battlecruiser and such. Heck you can make houndreds of millions a month by just do trade runs. Sorry but we could only dream about such when we started out back then.

Originally by: Moghydin

More and more new toys are added for the veterans and this makes game harder and harder for newbs. As was said, tech II staff means that lvl 5 skill is not a 5% increase, but a gate to some "uber" staff. Freighters now can earn mega-corps 100-s of millions per hour and completely destroy trade routes, thus eliminating entire profession - NPC trading, the profession that was most popular with newer players.



When I started out there wasnt any implants, no advanced learning skills either, newbs get toys too.

Training up for tech2 ships, weapons and modules takes a lot of time, just because you are a older player doesn't mean you can train such skills in a couple of days. The difference between tech2 and the best named tech1 modules isn't that big. If you don't create new toys and content for the older players CCP end up screw over the new players as well.

Who do you think supply the market with ships, modules? Who help create content for new players by create demands for minerals and ore? When I started play NPC's did have buy orders for minerals and ore, because there wasnt enough demand from players to keep miners feed. These days producers cant get enough of minerals and we got skyhigh prices on base mins.

Freighters are new content and ships, they take a lot to build. They are not for the common players. Fair enough you can wreck havoc on NPC trade with these, but as always CCP will look into such and eventualy strie out with a nerf bat or changes as they always done.

Originally by: Moghydin

And now we hear the demands for tech II battleships and tech III staff. If this is implemented, the gap between vets and new players will become so huge, that it'll create something like 2 different societies , one - of the uber veterans and another of the "lowly" n00bs. In this case, all high reward zones will be closed before the new guys and i doubt anyone of the new pilots will find some fun in the game.


EVE is an alive game, you have new, old, medium and whatever players out there. If you are a powergamer and just want to be better than everyone else or want a cap so no one can be better than anyone else in the end, then EVE is not the right game for you. CCP supply you with a game world to live in, what you do in it is up to yourself. Sit crying about how unfair it is becuase some guy that worked for 2+ years time to get where he is today is ahead of you is just dumb. In 2 years time you are that ahead of someone else joining the game then. And people who are ahead of you now might have quit.

There is no noobs, veterans or whatnot, there is only PLAYERS. EVE is a mutliplayer game. If you want to do thing solo then know your limitations. However in a team effort and working with other players you can achieve so much more.

Sorja
11th Division
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2005.08.05 04:31:00 - [79]
 

Cut training time in half.

There is much more than two times the number of skills from launch, so cut down the learning curve.

Nobody would leave if training was faster, many haven't joined are have left because of the horrendous grind in EVE.

Caleidon
Posted - 2005.08.05 04:59:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Verone
The only thing i'd suggest is upping the trial period from 14 days to 30, so that new players can get more of a foothold before deciding whether or not to pay for a sub.


I think this is the best suggestion made by far. The main turn-off for a new player is is not isk aquisition or skill training slowness, but the fact that there is so much to learn and experience, and so little time to do it all in during the trial.

Being able to catch up to older players in SP isn't really one of my concerns (I've been playing for about 16-17 days now). They should be rewarded for their time investment (as should I, if I decide to play for 2 years). And with a steady influx of new players, there will always be someone below me on the SP hierarchy :P

Corey Grim
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.08.05 06:32:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Corey Grim on 05/08/2005 06:36:31
Originally by: Moghydin
Originally by: Corey Grim

i cant understand why u think that there is 2 groups vets and noobs coz its not that black & white imo.


Look around and you understand. Leading PvP corporations have minimum 4-10 mil skill points requirements. These corporations control most alliances and these alliances control access to most profitable zones in Eve.
About newb's role in PvP. It is fun, but for a short time only. You will understand that you are expandable, replacable and, in summary, not that important (this is by no means directed at you personally). It can be fun to tackle, but wouldn't being a main dmg dealer or sniper be more fun? In short, you only have support roles open. It is fun, but it's untill you understand that you are just another small wheel in a big machine.


about those leading PvP corporations yes they have requirements for reason. its NOT about SP its about EXPERIENCE. one must first understand game mechanics, tactics, know what to do in what situation. yes main dmg dealer would be fun but u are still replacable coz this is after all mmo-game everyone is needed but war doesnt need one guy no matter how good he is. if u want to be dmg dealer BE ONE :) it takes time and patience yes but if u want something try work for it a little there is million thing u can do when waiting skills to grow, hint: knowledge is power.
oh i almost forget: those "leading corps" are elite players and they are not majority of games subscribers. they have worked hard to get there where they are now. there is lot of corps and i still cant see ur point that there is 2 major groups as someone allready sayed there is only players :)

Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2005.08.05 06:49:00 - [82]
 

In threads like this it seems that most people want to compare new players to players that have been EVE'ing since release.

That is just plain wrong IMHO.

New players have access to better information and more of it (character creation, skill training and career paths.
New players have access to implants and advanced learning skills (something the "oldest" characters didn't have at the start).
New players have access to far cheaper ships in comparison to the "NPC" prices at release.
New players can sell base minerals at above NPC prices, enabling them to get more isk for their effort.

What you have to realise is that some started at release (~2 years and 3 months ago), some started 1 1/2 years ago, others 1 year aog, etc., etc..

Only CCP can really tell us the demographic distribution of the character base, and the skill point distribution inside of that.

On a whole, you have to ask yourself what is a "new player" ? How old is a "new character" ? 6 months ? 3 months ? 1 month ? How big an advantage does a 3 month old character have over a 14 day old character ?

The way it is right now is just right IMO, as should be left alone.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2005.08.05 11:00:00 - [83]
 

Eve is fine as is, at least as far as the basic skill system and newbie startup goes. Sure, if you jump into the game with the attention span of a gerbil and want to be flying HACs and battleships in a few weeks, you'll be frustrated.. but to be frank, those kind of players bring nothing constructive to the game in any case and the market already caters to the "fast food" type of MMORPG gaming (WoW in particular). EVE is different and requires commitment and the learning curve, but as a payoff it becomes boring a lot more slowly than the simpler games out there.

I personally only touched battleships after I had been playing a year. I think that was a good choice -- and I still mostly fly smaller ships. I had a ton of fun flying basic t1 frigates, I see no reason why someone starting now would not have the same amount of fun. Nothing spectacular has changed there.

In addition, if you concentrate on one ship type for a while, you can actually become pretty proficient quite quickly, assuming we're talking about t1 ships... and you can do a ton of stuff in t1 ships. If you want to pvp, you'll be useful to a group *very* quickly, and most corps will keep you supplied with basic frigates etc when your blow up, you can freely test things out.

As with everything, finding a good player corp helps a *lot*, but that's not something you can dictate with game rules. It either happens or it doesn't.

I'm not saying EVE is perfect, far from it... but the basic skill system is IMHO very good due to the diminishing returns from higher skill levels. A low-sp character *can* take out a high-sp player, given the right ship combo, situation, and luck. In lots of games, it's flat-out impossible. Not to mention that a small combat group of low-sp characters can be quite deadly, if they know what they are doing. It's only partly about the sps, it's a lot about real-life skills and teamwork.

Ankanos
Caldari
Posted - 2005.08.13 05:01:00 - [84]
 

ok.. to finish beating this dead horse, in brief

kudos to gayL0rd,amox,carrde,articblue2,Hutch Valence,Jenny Spitfire,
Ruffio Sepico**, Alex Harumichi, et al...

these players speak with tempered words and reality. to spead up training or give anymore *anything* to new players would completly undermine the some of the key factors that make Eve the game..and Eve the community.

Giving in to those who want to halve training times or give
extra skills to noobs would only serve to turn eve into
another homgonized, boring mmorg..like WoW

for those who make cant the grade or get all the wonderful toys because *making
isk is so hard*

we have a new player in my n00b corp, now 3 months old.. in the 1st 21 days
of his game play, he made just over 500mil without firing a shot...from trading.

so to suggest eve is all about the veterans in regards to
making, is just plain shortsightedness.

apply yourself and use the vast resources available to you and you
will prosper like no other...

-ank

** he makes excellent points

(this game is decidedly un-american in dvelopment, game design and community
in that you need long term vision, willingness to play hard, -and be
accountable for your actions..lets keep it that way, shall we?
((and this from a native NYorker))

you truly reap what you sow in eve..something you really dont see
in *any* other mmorg

-ank


Blind Fear
Amarr
Posted - 2005.08.13 05:15:00 - [85]
 

There is no such thing as diminishing returns in the EVE skill system on any meaningful scale anymore. That whole concept has been tossed out with the introduction of massive (and generally fairly unreasonable) lvl 5 prereqs. The most blatent offenders here are the advanced learning skills (worst. idea. ever.) but every skill tree is affected.

The simplest short term solution is to give new accounts a skill training boost (10x training for the first 2m SP on an account).

Comparisons with pre-castor days are irrelevant because back then - diminishing returns generally EXISTED. The balance of the skill system is completely different.

infused
Posted - 2005.08.13 06:10:00 - [86]
 

1) Implants don't help new players.
2) Giving them learning skills won't help them either. Your better off giving them a whole bunch of level 1-2 skills so they can actually play this game in the first week.

I think they should start with 750sp.

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2005.08.13 09:24:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 03/08/2005 19:43:14
My first impression of this game for the first 14-days is,

1. Hard life.
2. Got gate ganked.
3. Got belt ganked.
4. Got tricked to fire in high sec. and got Concordokken.
5. Met some nice ppl and learnt things slowly.

Still, if a newb were to see more of 1-4 than 5, they will probably run away and never to come near Eve anymore. I myself, got annoyed and left for a while because, I probably was unlucky enough to meet scums frequently for unknown reasons... ;|
quote]

Not at all unknown, the reason is it was caldari space.

MadJackMcJones
Posted - 2005.08.13 10:07:00 - [88]
 

I don't know why people seem to think that the advanced learning skills help newbies. The books cost as much as a cruiser! Not to mention the fact that it takes over a week of training just to access them.

Lorzon
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2005.08.13 13:55:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
To put it simply, it is either you are in alliances to go to 0.0 or you will just have to stay in empire, as the risk of sneaking into 0.0 space may not be worth the reward. Something must be done to make 0.0 more of a partyland rather than hazardland. That is what methinks.


This pretty much sums things up for me. I get depressed when the Old Timers log in as there newbie alts and talk about how great 0.0 is and that I should join a real corp and give it a try.

1)I'll join a real corp when I'm damn well good and ready. Being in a player corp is not all giggles.

2)There are far too many players, IMO, that enjoy beating up noobs. System security status should actually mean something below 0.5 beisdes a security hit.

3)Stop the BS of shooting Noobie corp member on sight simply becuase they are in the noobie corp. That is the most paranoid thing I've ever seen. If necessary institute a rule that states that if you have a character that is more than 5 months old and are caught spying in a noob alt, there should be penalties. You are making it unnaturally difficult on actual noobs who are brave enough to venture into low security.

Sure there will always be players who kill noobies for fun, but they shouldn't camp 0.4 becuase there is no penalty.

Kaalise
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.08.13 14:26:00 - [90]
 

Bunch of vets making themselves look like sanctimonious idiots again...

Okay where to start:

1. Any and all references to advanced learning skills and implants make you look like a ******. Everyone has access to these and it's a damn site easier for older players to get them.

2. Any and all references to how it's easy because you can make and alt and do whatever make you look like a ******. No matter how low skilled the character is you still have the advantage of years of player skill.

3. Stop with the "oh no, the poor newbs can't compete" it makes you look sanctimonious, condescending and patronising all in one. Remember how you all harp on about how it was so hard before and it felt like an achievement to get into a cruiser? Well guess what, it still does. When I was a newb I couldn't care less about how much better a Vet was than me because I was achieving my goals and doing things that I felt proud about.

All new players really need is possibly better tutorials and to be in a place where they can get some good advice. Oh, and to stop being told by everyone that they can never achieve anything so that they can actually have a positive attitude about the game.


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