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Bolka
Caldari
Posted - 2003.07.17 14:48:00 - [1]
 

Even though some people have pointed it out several times, there seem to be a wrong perception of some terms, and of some things on this forum.
Now these definitions are probably in no dictionary, but there is a consensus of the difference between PvP and PK in online games that roughly goes along those lines:

PvP
Player(s) versus Player(s), which means one player or a group of players actually fighting another player or group of players.

PK
Player Killing, which means one player killed another player who wasn't looking for a fight. It usually doesn't involve a fight, just the killing.

These are certainly not perfect, but they'll be enough for the point I'm trying to make below.

EVE provides us with a environnement that doesn't promote PvP. The essence of the PvP is when 2 players or groups meet, both thinking they have a reasonable chance to win. In EVE we don't have many ways or reasons to meet on an even fighting ground.

Now:
I am still convinced that if EVE offered reasonable PvP opportunities, most players would welcome PvP. I mean that, a player who gets a good fight will already be somewhat satisfied, even if he loses, even if he did not consent, and maybe even if it wasn't really fair. A good fight doesn't last less than 30 seconds.
The problem we face at the moment is a player who gets PKed without a chance to even move or shoot back will always be frustrated, creating the situations we see everyday, that create much tension on both sides. I won't even mention exploits used for easier PKing and their effect on frustration.
Also, how long will it be fun to blast a lone traveller into oblivion when he's outgunned 15 to 1? Being a pirate would benefit from a real PvP system, and it wouldn't need to be totally restricted to 0.0 system either.

Instead of transforming PK in PvP, PKing has been limited to low sec systems, which doesn't satisfy anyone. It is only acceptable as a temporary fix.

Getting stuck in the same discussions about "griefers vs carebears" won't help, I think we're all looking for a solution, and it might well be the same one. I have already seen many a good idea on these forums.
Basically what I'm saying is that apart for a few extremists: we all want good PvP in EVE, and there is little or no PvP at the moment.

PS.
This thread may well turn out to be no different than any other thread, but if we could not use the words "carebear", "griefer" or "whaa boo boo", that would certainly already be an immense improvement.
It will be understood those using these aforementionned words have not read this original post.. ;-)


Edited by: Bolka on 17/07/2003 14:52:38

Tsaya
Posted - 2003.07.17 15:20:00 - [2]
 

The problem the way i see it:
Most people in eve have fallen for the isk pitfall.
The only reason why they do things is to get isk. What they should do is get isk to be able to do things.

Therefore they f.e. argue that corp wars wont happen, cause there is no profit to be gained. And if enough corps think so, there wont be much fights. Or they work hard for battleships and then get bored, cause they didnt think about what to do with em.

What is the reason for PvP combat? Necessity? Every online game that ive done PvP in so far had no real necessity for it, thats not the point.
The point is if you like enganging in PvP or not. If you like to blow up a few people or get blown up from time to time, then you should earn isk to buy things that will eventually be blown up.
You have to decide for yourself if fun and combat is what you want, or if its just the isk youre after, and play accordingly. But dont tell others you want PvP, while all you want is to gain or keep your isk.

PvP is for fun, not for isk, and the problem is not the game, its the people. Most people in this game think about isk all the time, and if they think about fun, they only whine about its absence, and dont think about how to have some.

P.S.: PvP takes longer than 30 seconds, only PKing happens inside that time span.

[carebear griefer whaa boo boo ;]

Pychian Vanervi
Solar Revenue Service
TAXU
Posted - 2003.07.17 15:26:00 - [3]
 

I have to agree, there is very little PvP. I myself would love to be part of an armada moving to confront a pirate or rival corp threat. But as it stands there is the NPC pirate killing which sometimes fun can be a little easy and then most all other PvP is so heavily acted upon by CONCORD and local forces that most are scared to even lock another player.
I am not a pirate but do love the fact they are out there to take me out as I happily mine away or transport a few thousand minerals to be sold, but this is only possible in a 0.0 system. If it was possible in other systems but with varying degree's of punishment and even death penalties in the .9 and 1.0 systems.
I know many will reply to this with but what about my ship it took me weeks to afford, well so does mine but there is always others to replace it. And surely the fact that a little element of fear will make the game more enjoyable.

P.S. I think this game is great and have no real issues other than the lack of much PvP.

loci
Caldari
Posted - 2003.07.17 15:33:00 - [4]
 

pvp is nothing to do with pk.
pkers get their thrills ruining others game experience by any means neccesary.
pkers will be the first to find and use exploits.
they have no interest in roleplaying.
unfortunatly some who are roleplaying pirates get dragged into the pker territory.


Pychian Vanervi
Solar Revenue Service
TAXU
Posted - 2003.07.17 15:40:00 - [5]
 

You say PKers ruin the game, I am not sure if they do. You have insurance for your ship, ok so you lose your mods but so do you if a pirate after your cargo catch's you trying to escape. If you get pod killed you have clones that activate and thus are reborn.
If there were more groups of bounty hunter who got together and hunted the PKers then they wouldn't be a threat. At the end of the day we all pay the sub fee and so should be able to do what we like. Its for the many to find ways to deal with the PKers.

Master Scy
Caldari
Posted - 2003.07.17 15:48:00 - [6]
 

By your definition Piracy is Pking...
Of course the industrial ship pilot carrying 20 million ISK worth of robotics isn't looking for PvP, but he still deserves to be killed if he's not careful enough...

Pychian Vanervi
Solar Revenue Service
TAXU
Posted - 2003.07.17 15:56:00 - [7]
 

So true, which is where the player interaction should come in. He should be hiring a couple of escorts to protect his goods. Instead of the way it is at the moment and a defenceless indy can move freely in all space except 0.0 with no fear of losing his goods. Why ask for help when you don't need it!!

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.17 15:59:00 - [8]
 

"PK" or Player Killing is a term that comes from *MUD (Multi User Dungeon) days. It was used to describe a MUD that allowed a player to kill another player, depending on circumstances and the mechanics of the MUD. It did not necessarily have any negative connotations. In fact, in many cases it was a positive thing as the MUD had a player justice system in place which required it to carry the label "PK".

The term didn't begin to change until UO. When UO was released, MUD players and normal gamers 'met' for the first time. And it wasn't pretty. UO was, by a mudder's definition, a PK game. Having played on PK muds before, many mudders never gave getting killed by someone much of a second thought (the extreme cases found in UO's mechanics notwithstanding. Mudders generally didn't tolerate griefers at all).

However, the gamers that had never heard of a MUD and were used to playing single player RPGs "reeled like a man mugged in a meadow" (Douglas Adams). These were players that were, for the most part, fans of Lord British's concept of the Avatar and the Virtues. And, for the most part, they had never faced a 'villian' as ruthless as another player while playing the single player rpgs. And since it was described as "PKing", the term began to take on negative connotations. We go downhill from there.

To me, PvP and PK are the same thing with no distinguishment between the two. Yah, I'm an old school mudder (Genesis, Nanny, Batmud, Chaos II for anyone that remembers). I am not only used to being vulnerable at any time. I relish it. Because it provides spontaneity. In a world where damn near everything has a script attached to it, spontaneous events are the fun things. And they are an integral part of Roleplaying.

Do I like griefers? No, of course not. But I know from long experience that most people will automatically label someone a griefer when killed if their motivation for killing them couldn't be found of 50' fiery letters. Why would I kill someone without profit? To increase terror.

Terror, when used properly, is almost as effective a tool as any weapon in the game. I told someone in another thread that if he chose to start a war with someone like me, I'd not only pod him. I'd pod every member of his corp whenever I could AND any of his customers I could identify. Would that get me labelled a 'griefer'? Probably, by his customers who wouldn't understand I was using their feelings to further strike at him.

As for 'PvP' and its connotations... See this article. *duck*

WhiteDwarf
Caldari
Battlestars
Posted - 2003.07.17 16:42:00 - [9]
 

"Of course the industrial ship pilot carrying 20 million ISK worth of robotics isn't looking for PvP, but he still deserves to be killed if he's not careful enough..."

This is the PK'er attitude that I despise so strongly, and that I find so ignorant.

PK'ers believe that anyone who is not a PK'er is more sheep for them to slaughter. They want to be able to PK, anywhere, anytime, even in empire space.

I have no problems with traders getting ganked in non-empire space, that is the risk you take for leaving controlled regions, same goes for miners.

If PK'ers had thier way, they would be able to camp every stargate in the universe except maybe 1.0 space. That is total BS. There are controlled regions for a reason. The reasons are so that corporations can be built, players can mine and trade in the relative saftey of controlled space.

When they are forced to move elsewhere because controlled space is getting crowded, trade routes are hard to come by, roids are far and few in between, they need more high end ore, THAT is when they should be forced to deal with the pirates, or else they no longer grow as a corporation. (i.e. stay in controlled regions forever)

There is simply not enough players in the game right now for this to happen, and there seems to be a disproportionate amount of PK'ers & PK'er corps. You can't fix this problem by giving PK'ers free reign of the universe, this just makes the game less fun for most others.

With the current size of the game universe, and the current number of players, CCP may have to scale back empire regions so the pirates don't have to sit out in non-contolled space with thier thumbs up thier asses. I agree it's not fair to make them wait for another 10,000 people to subscribe to this game, but letting them camp gates in empire space is not the answer either.

It seems to me there just is not a big enough playerbase to support the PK'ers thirst for blood.

What sucks, is this game is way better than EnB, but EnB had far more players subscribed after 3 months than this game. I believe it is due to PvP. Some players don't want any part of it. And you need players like that to keep the economy going. Not everyone wants to, or should be required to fight. This is why this game is struggling right now, people look at the box and decide not to buy it because of the PvP aspect.

We need 20,000 people online at any one time for this game to work properly. Sorry, but allowing PK'ing to run rampant will not achieve that goal.

Kashre
Minmatar
Imperium Technologies
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2003.07.17 16:53:00 - [10]
 

Eve does nothing to hinder PvP... the deal with EVE is that before the battle ever gets started you have a lot of things to consider, like how to find a target, what to take to attack the target, when to attack the target, and how many people can you get together to go with you to attack the target.

That leads to a more "realistic" combat environment, imo, and in real life a war isnt about level playing fields, its about getting as much firepower on the most vulnerable spot while keeping the other guy's forces as small as possible.

As for PKers just killing people, well, they can only kill you if you go someplace dangerous, like 0.0 space. So you can either never go outside of empire space, or you can take precautions. If you're careful, its almost impossible for them to catch you. But if you blindly fly up to some pirates blockade and get podded in your unarmed industrial, then you get what you deserve.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.17 17:16:00 - [11]
 

<< This is the PK'er attitude that I despise so strongly, and that I find so ignorant.

PK'ers believe that anyone who is not a PK'er is more sheep for them to slaughter. They want to be able to PK, anywhere, anytime, even in empire space.
>>

*Sigh*

Conan Cimmerian
Caldari
Solar Knights Inc
Posted - 2003.07.17 18:14:00 - [12]
 

Some nice comments made in this post.

I would say there is a distinction between the two and that is Pker's are sociopaths, and in a role playing kind of way - a serial killer.

Nobody likes a serial killer but heck you shall have to deal with it.

Which brings me to the small excursion provided by Jash. What a great read. I think this is probably the reasoning behind such explosive reactions to certain practices by players.

Good players will use the game mechanics to their advantage, which are essentially the games rules. Not the rules you have created in your head. Where does it state anywhere that can theft is not part of the game? If this was the case it would not be possible to achieve. Where does it state that players should not camp gates? (blimey, camping is notorious for uprisings in other games. But sadly people don't realize that camping is a very effective tactic.)

Players should realize that in order to achieve and improve your goals you need to play to win, and that means using the game mechanics to your advantage.

I shan't ramble about exploits, becuase such good points where made in the article. So before players wish to retort with a flame, I suggest you read it.

This post is difficult to sum up as the subject of PvP (and other such topics of late) is a complex issue. But much would vapourize if players could drop the 'scrub' tag. :)

*duck indeed*

Maarek Steele
Gallente
GalTech Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.17 18:27:00 - [13]
 

Thank you WhiteTroll.

Anyone who doesn't think about their actions, doesn't plan their route, and has no contigency plans for when they run into a blockade is cattle. Mindless sheeple. They are my prey, and an oh so fine delicacy. I have no respect whatsoever for the mindless sheep that go AFK on long trade runs or while mining and the come back to find themselves floating in a pod.

That said, I have plenty of respect for my adversaries who come at me in force and with forthought. As well as respect for the intelligent blockade runner, the skilled negotiator, and the brave captain who says "No I won't pay" and then accepts his fate when he loses his ship.

Do I podkill? Sometimes. As Jash pointed out, Terror is as effective as any weapon or ship known to man. For long years in the early 1940's an utterly outdated and obsolete craft dominated the Battlefields of Europe. The sounds of its "Trumpets of Jericho" caused troops to run in terror. The Stuka had a myth of invulnerability and this spread terror throughout its victims, as should a Pirate sow terror through his victims.

I'm simple:
You log, I pod.
You run, I destroy you.
You talk ****, I pod.
You join a fleet against me, I pod.
You cooperate, you live.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.17 18:46:00 - [14]
 

<< If PK'ers had thier way, they would be able to camp every stargate in the universe except maybe 1.0 space. >>

How would you know what 'Pkers' want? You don't ever bother to even attempt to understand their motivations or gameplay. Your entire post speaks volumes of how closed your mind is to their side of things.

I'm a PKer, by my definition. And prolly by yours. The difference is in our definitions of 'PKer'. I will kill another player without a thought given sufficient motivation. I won't hestitate (and I haven't) to launch 2 heavy missiles at a pod to get the kill. So I kill players. I am a Player Killer. But do I want to jump into Hulm and vape everyone in space?

Hmm...depends on my motivation. If I set out to be the most ruthless pirate in the game and nobody challenges me, yah I would jump into Hulm and vape everything in sight. Not out of boredom. Not out of bloodthirst. But out of an attempt to motivate the sheep to grow some horns and act like rams. If it took a bloodletting to get someone to come after me, which would be the real goal, so be it. Nothing personal, just business.

You want a 'fair fight'. You want 'honorable battles'. You want 'motivations'. What you don't get is those concepts are yours individually. Others may believe in them to the same degree as you. But most people don't agreee on subjective concepts like "honor" and "fair". And given that this is a ROLEPLAYING game, it's completely appropriate for people to deny you a "fair and honorable" battl, backed up by "reasonable motivation".

Because it's completely in character for 'the bad guy' to be dishonorable and unfair. So, do read the article linked in and consider what's been said.

Edited by: Jash Illian on 17/07/2003 18:47:59

Lexington Cabot
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.17 19:51:00 - [15]
 

"I am still convinced that if EVE offered reasonable PvP opportunities, most players would welcome PvP."

Most people who play MMO's don't want or like pvp. They just don't want to deal with it. Look at the servers on EQ or DAOC that are pvp. They are empty. Look at the Fel side of UO (the pvp zones), it's dead.

Your always gonna have players that do want to pvp but it will never be a majority because the very concept of pvp is a fight between two humans, something we aren't very fond of in real life.

Mule
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.07.17 19:53:00 - [16]
 

Jash,

I address this to you since you seem to be the most vocal proponent of the pirate PvP play-style. If everything I write doesn't apply directly to you, it at least applies to many of your pirate brethren:
I've read many, many post by you and your points are always very valid if you assume that PvP is the only way to play this game. The article you linked about "scrubs" was very interesting. I encountered this very situation last night while playing Mortal Kombat with my nephew. He kept pulling out his weapons and using the same move over and over. I asked him to stop as this made the game rather boring. He said he didn't care because he was winning. I had been pulling my punches in an attempt to make the game more fun for him. When he refused to desist in his tactics, I proceeded to pull out my weapons (which I hadn't used up to that point) and gave him the beat down of his life for 2 matches. He started crying (and I felt a little bad for him) and said I was mean and promised not to do it again. We then proceeded to BOTH have fun playing and attempting difficult combos and special moves. See where we (you and I) differ in what we consider fun? I want EVERYONE I'm playing with to have a good time. Sometimes this will mean letting them damage me to make them feel like they got in a few good licks. Sometimes (In FPS games) I even let a player who is obviously less skilled than myself kill me a few times just so they don't feel like they got totally smoked. Do you ever do this? Is it ever even a consideration for you whether your opponent is having fun? Winning isn't everything. Games are supposed to be fun, and sometimes for me, it can be more fun to make a player feel good about themselves than to win.

Now to specifics about Eve. The article you cited is relevant to only a very small slice of the Eve experience. That slice being PvP combat. I assume that since you advocate so vocally for the PvP combat element of the game that your character is heavily trained in gunnery skills, navigation, starship command, engineering, etc. All these skills are required for combat. Unfortunately, the people that you want to prey on (since it seems the pirates don't want to fight each other. Too much of a challenge I suppose) are trained in mining, industry, science, manufacturing, etc. with maybe enough combat skills to fight off the occasional NPC frigate or three. So you see, your "scrubs" article is totally inappropriate to Eve because these people can't possibly match you in combat. This is the point where you say, "Well, they should train up their combat skills to beat me instead of just whining about it." This is the basic flaw in your reasoning. You think that your idea of "winning" in Eve, say by blowing away someone else’s ship in PvP combat, is the only way to "win" in Eve. Obviously this is incorrect. There are many ways to win in Eve. You can be the richest player, CEO of the biggest corp., be the first to own a BS, Titan, or station, be the first to be able to play a Jovian, even be the centerfold for the Playboy Corps playmate of the month. Also, I'm sure I don't need to remind you (or perhaps I do) that that shiny ship you (and everyone else for that matter) are flying around in was produced by the "sheep" that you hold in such contempt. Players who have trained just as hard as you to be able to pursue their chosen professions, but have no way to take away from you what you would gladly take away from them just for kicks in the pursuit of "winning". If it weren't for the "sheep", you and your pirate buddies would still be flying around in noob frigates holding up other noob frigates with civilian gatling guns.

I used to think that maybe CCP was a little harsh with the way that they dealt with PvP and low security players in empire space, but the more I listen to you "griefbears" whine about how unfair it all is, the more I'm convinced that CCP did the right thing. You complain that there is no content out there in 0.0 space. Do you really care about content? I doubt it. What your real complaint is is that there are no "sheep" out there that you can extort money from or blow away with no risk to yourself. Well, there do seem to be plenty of players (judging by the amount of whining on these boards) who enjoy PvP out there in 0.0. Why don't you all have a good time podding each other? I sincerely hope that CCP never allows pirates back into Empire space where your brand of "winning" means someone else loses a lot.

P.S. I agree that there is too much money being made from trade routes that don't go through 0.0 space. There should be greater reward associated only with greater risk.

WhiteDwarf
Caldari
Battlestars
Posted - 2003.07.17 19:54:00 - [17]
 

"Thank you WhiteTroll"

Your're welcome...

...anytime.

It's funny because I don't agree with the PK attitude, I'm in the wrong.

You guys wanted a total lawless bloodbath from this game. You had it for a few weeks, now you don't.

Face the facts, that it did not work, and deal.

If it was working, why has CCP changed it?

Money talks, the PK'ers can walk as far as I'm concerned.

Master Scy
Caldari
Posted - 2003.07.17 20:24:00 - [18]
 

Mule, there are alternatives to training all the gunnery skills. There are defensive modules and skills that will help you run away without taking too much damage. There are also plenty of players that would gladly provide mercenary services, to protect you and attack your enemies for a fee.

"Money talks, the PK'ers can walk as far as I'm concerned."

I've heard this in umm, every MMORPG I've played, except Planetside, for obvious reasons. Why don't you walk this time, because I am pretty sure the majority of the Eve population is satisfied with things the way they currently are, except for a few minor adjustments that need to be made (warp-in lag, etc).

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.17 20:50:00 - [19]
 

I love long replies :D

<< Sometimes this will mean letting them damage me to make them feel like they got in a few good licks. Sometimes (In FPS games) I even let a player who is obviously less skilled than myself kill me a few times just so they don't feel like they got totally smoked. Do you ever do this? >>

On the rare occasion when I'm playing against a child, yes I will 'pull my punches'. Beyond that, no. I don't pull my punches against adults in competitions. I play to my best ability, whether it be in a sport or in a game.

<< The article you cited is relevant to only a very small slice of the Eve experience. That slice being PvP combat. >>

Actually there's more relevance there than you believe. But I'll return to that in a moment.

<< I assume that since you advocate so vocally for the PvP combat element of the game that your character is heavily trained in gunnery skills, navigation, starship command, engineering, etc. All these skills are required for combat. >>

You would be wrong in that assumption and, in my opinion, vastly underestimating your own skills. I have 12 gunnery skills, yes. But most are trained to mediocre levels. Because I've got other skills trained to equal levels despite being Brutorly Challenged (aka low grey matter). Int 10, Cha 8, Memory 14, Per 14, Will 14. So you can see I didn't go "All guns, all day". And many of the skills found in groups like Navigation, Engineering, Mechanic and Electronics aren't just so you can kill people better. They're there so you can make killing you more difficult as well.

Take a trader. You know what skills I think you need to be a good trader? It's more than Frigate 3 and Industrial 4. I wouldn't be caught dead in an industrial where pirates can get to me without Engineering, Navigation, High Speed Maneuvering, Shield Operations, Shield Management, Tactical Shield Manipulation, Warp Drive Operations, Evasive Maneuvering, Afterburner, Fuel Efficiency, Electronics, Electronic Warfare, Weapon Disruption, Energy Systems Operations, Energy Management. I'll leave you to figure out why.

<< since it seems the pirates don't want to fight each other. Too much of a challenge I suppose >>

Pirates attack each other all the time. They don't do it for profit, because if anyone knows how much a pirate is worth it's another pirate. They fight over territory, insult, accidents and dominance. And far more quickly that others do.

<< This is the point where you say, "Well, they should train up their combat skills to beat me instead of just whining about it." This is the basic flaw in your reasoning. You think that your idea of "winning" in Eve, say by blowing away someone else’s ship in PvP combat, is the only way to "win" in Eve. >>

No, this is the point where I say "Well they should train up their skills to beat a pirate by being the best trader they can". Mining isn't just about how fast you can suck down a roid. Trading isn't just about being able to analyze the market interface. It's also about getting the cargo delivered safely. No problem behind Concord's defenses. But to run a blockade you need a lot more than Industrial skill. But too many "sheep" don't even try. You want to play the role of a trading mogul? Then earn it, just the same way a pirate has to train something other than Medium <insert name> Weapon to be something more than a joke.

And for the final point:
<< I've read many, many post by you and your points are always very valid if you assume that PvP is the only way to play this game. >>

For someone that has read many, many posts be me...How have you always missed the repeated statements that I'm not a pirate?

Whoops, forgot to address the relevance of the article.

The 'scrub' mentality is prevelant throughout this game. It's in all areas. It's rampant in manufacturing:

"I can't make a profit because xxx is undercutting me! That's not fair" - Scrub

"Blueprint copies are ruining the market!" - Scrub

"NPC loot is ruining the player manufactured market" - Semi Scrub (it ain't helping but there are ways to beat them if people tried)

Traders? Scrubs
"Remoting buying isn't fair! People buy up all the demand remotely" - Scrub

"Only people that can play right after reboot can make any isk! It's not fair" - Scrub

Too many people have it set in their minds that their way of playing the game is the right way. Yet Eve is supposed to be an open ended game, with the players' actions and decisions influencing where it goes. But instead of attempting to find a way despite the way other people play the game, they want to sit behind their imagined rules of how the game should be played.

Edited by: Jash Illian on 17/07/2003 21:06:24

Mule
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.07.17 20:55:00 - [20]
 

I guess I failed to mention that I am a rather skilled PvP evader who is trained in ECM, High Speed Maneuvering (MWD), and even Gunnery for when I can't get way. I also rarely drive an Industrial because I prefer my cruiser even if it takes more trips because then I can always make side trips if I decide to go sightseeing. I was advocating more for some friends of mine who have devoted a great deal of time to training Mining, Refining, Refining Efficiency, Drones and Mining Drones, Indie Piloting, and Manufacturing and research skills.

For the record, it is very difficult to put a MWD on an industrial ship. Once you do get it on there is no power to run any other modules. And then your capacitor would run dry long before you made it from the warp in point to the gate. This leaves the only viable solution as hiring mercenaries to guard you. Considering that I can make about 400K + ISK per hour hunting low level NPC pirates and recycling the loot (friends of mine make considerably more fighting NPC cruiser pirates), an Indy driver would need to pay significantly more than that to tempt me to risk my ship in PvP combat (not that I actually would because I know very well that my clone would be activated if I ever ran into a hardcore PvPer and had to stand my ground). Not sure what an Industrial goes for nowadays but I figure it's around 1M ISK. See the problem here? You'll lose more by paying the bodyguards than you will if you lose the ship and cargo.

Of course I might be talking out my ass here. Some folks might give reasonable rates for guard duty just because that's what they want to do.

Edit - You may not be a pirate by your definition, but as someone who seeks out PvP and who so vocally defends the PC pirate position, the label works well enough for me. ( I know, I'm a labeler. I try not to get too hung up on them though.) As I said, if not everything I posted applies to you, it does apply to others.

BTW, I like you much better when your not railing against the injustice of it all. I might even let you kill me to make you feel better. ;)

Edited by: Mule on 17/07/2003 21:04:33

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.17 21:20:00 - [21]
 

<< Edit - You may
not be a pirate by your definition, but as someone who seeks out PvP
and who so vocally defends the PC pirate position, the label works
well enough for me. ( I know, I'm a labeler. I try not to get too hung
up on them though.) As I said, if not everything I posted applies to
you, it does apply to others.

BTW, I like you much better when your
not railing against the injustice of it all. I might even let you kill
me to make you feel better. ;)
>>

I don't seek out PvP. If I did, I'd be out in 0.0 space inventing every reason I could for being there. I just don't try to avoid it by having it removed either. The pirates provided spontaneous events (for the most part). Except for the predictableness of the Mara/Passari gate (and now others) you never knew when you might get attacked. You had to take precautions. You had to use your brain a bit. You definately couldn't rely on your autopilot while watching TV.

I want the pirates back because I want that back. If it means hammering it into people's skulls with a sledgehammer that what was done to them was MetaGame and unfair, I can wield sledgehammers. If it means taking CCP to the walls for implementing such a poorly thought out and biased 'solution', the wall is 5' away.

This current situation has to go and it has to go quickly otherwise it'll never be reversed. They won't be able to do so. CCP will get eaten alive, quite rightfully, if they try to change things two months from now. And if they leave things the way it is, hoping their events and corp wars will return it, they're delusional. They'll discover very shortly and very quickly (cause it seems they're starting something now), that events can't satisfy even 5% of their playerbase once the newness wears off. Because its impossible to provide events that everyone can participate in. Simple manpower requirements stops that.

And corp wars? When large corps decided paying m0o was cheaper than losing ships, the chances of corp wars plummetted.

Master Scy
Caldari
Posted - 2003.07.17 21:28:00 - [22]
 

About events, I wonder if they'll be doing any combat ones.. Because those will probably very quickly turn into a lagfest with a lot of people killed if the opportunity comes up (if the event moves into a system where cops don't show up).

Shivash
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2003.07.17 21:34:00 - [23]
 

Personally I think a major part of the problem is CCP's decision to create corporations. By definition a corporation in RL is there to make money. You don't find corporations fighting wars between countries ( unless your skymasters in a dale brown novel :P ). What I think CCP should do/should have done is to create several types of player run groups. You'd then have rebel squads, Factional squadrons, corporations etc. Each type of group having different RP basis and different strengths and weeknesses. For example members of a corporation might get a +1 bonus on number of manufacturing slots they can run and a 5% mining/refining yield. Rebels might have black market benefits and smuggling capabilities, factionalist squadrons won't be able to fly non-factionalist ships but might get the ability to 'claim' space - claimed space then get's support from that factions police force for protecting normal citizens ( i.e. corporation and that factions corps members ). Naturally NPC police in that example probably wouldn't engage another factionalist force trying to capture that space. Rebels would be smugglers, pirates etc. You could also have a mercenary type squad. Multifactional who are gund for hire.

Master Scy
Caldari
Posted - 2003.07.17 21:46:00 - [24]
 

Shivash, there is another option... Give benefits to people joining NPC corps, that then are mixed in the story in one way or another. Good benefits would attract the solo players and small corps into these NPC corps...

drunkenmaster
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2003.07.17 23:23:00 - [25]
 

nice thread, glad to see it's not turned into a flame thread.

I'll chip in my 5isk (as I always seem to)

Until tonight, I've never tried the 'darkside' of pvp. Sure, I've been podded without question before, and lost a couple of ships along the way, but nothing I can't put back. The encounters where I have lost or nearly lost ships have been the highpoints of my time here. I was totally outgunned, but I was in lawless space, and not paying attention. I feel I deserved it. It's not like I didn't know the risks.

I've been brewing an alt for a while, and tonight, I unleashed him on some unfortunate miner. And what followed was an hour of pvp entertainment. He wanted me dead, I wanted to leave the station, other people joined in, and suddenly I was in mortal danger. It was fantastic. I only robbed the guy for about 50k of ore (which I've payed back triple, cos I'm still a nice guy*).

*also because I blew my own cover due to forum error :( :D

the surprise pvp encounter is what keeps me interested in the game. But I'd rather recieve the surprise than give it out. Know what I mean?

PK'ing is a different matter. And due to only ever being on the recieving end, I can't really put my pecker in the hot dog bun when it comes to telling people how it is.

One thing I have noticed though is nobody is complaining about the NPC pirates. Surely they are more ruthless than most PK'ers. They never ask for money, they won't let you go, and they will fire upon you the instant they get the chance.

Nobody is surprised if they killed by gatecamping NPC pirates, so why the distinction? because the PC pirates have better tools and tactics, or because they're human?

if you afk warp into either of them, you will lose your ship. podding is merely an inconvenience. And a good excuse for revenge.

Admittedly the system is not perfect yet, but if people don't want pvp, they have all of empire space to use to avoid it. And that is a whole lot of space. The only reason you'd need to venture out into 0.0 space is if you needed the materials to build fighting craft. And I'll leave that thought swinging in the breeze.

sorry it went on so long.

<edit> no offense to the mods, but wth is going on with this crazy formatting tonight? I'm just mind-typing here like I always do, and it's coming out all freaky.

Edited by: drunkenmaster on 17/07/2003 23:24:36

Molly
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.07.17 23:25:00 - [26]
 

EVE isn't a PvP game, is is a PvB game.

Each time you try to fight a player you end up fighting bugs.

drunkenmaster
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2003.07.17 23:49:00 - [27]
 

shivash, I like the idea, but it would cause a lot more 'unrequested pvp' as people would join the pirate factions, and take the place of NPC's at faction gates.

In my eyes it would make it better to a point, as, like jash said, you have to work your brain, and not just be able to guarantee putting an mwd and a rack of cargo expanders on, and know that they will be fine.

At the moment the game seems to be favouring those that don't want to think too much. Or perhaps have to do something different now and then, due to an in-game situation.

being able to join NPC factions would be cool, but I would think it should be in addition to Player Corps, rather than instead of.

<e> plus, I'd want put my alt in a concord corp as a spy, and sell info to anyone that could afford it. 'Cos that would be fun.

Edited by: drunkenmaster on 18/07/2003 00:09:27

WhiteDwarf
Caldari
Battlestars
Posted - 2003.07.18 01:17:00 - [28]
 

"because I am pretty sure the majority of the Eve population is
satisfied with things the way they currently are, except for a few
minor adjustments that need to be made (warp-in lag, etc)."

I am also satisfied with the current setup. PC pirates pushed out of controlled space, yes, I agree.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.18 02:24:00 - [29]
 

<< I am also satisfied with the current setup. PC pirates pushed out of
controlled space, yes, I agree.
>>

Baaaaa...Baaaaa

You think people are satisfied? I think they're bored and quietly slipping out the door. You know there are some people that recognize the fact that making isk amounts to the same repeat actions they complained about in games like EQ. Except EQ has more variety in the scenery and mobs.

The pirates broke the monotony at least.

Edited by: Jash Illian on 18/07/2003 02:28:06

Bolka
Caldari
Posted - 2003.07.18 09:58:00 - [30]
 


This thread has become very interesting.

The reason I think most people would accept real PvP is I noted most disgruntled thread about podded/assaulted people were complaining more about the way they were killed and helpless than with the fact they were actually killed.
Of course no one likes to lose a ship, but after reading all the posts in this thread I am more convinced than before that if the player had fun (f.e. a good fight), he won't be very frustrated after being assaulted and robbed.
This implies he knew he was taking some kind of risk, he gets a fair chance to do something about his death (more than just having chosen not to be here), and the whole thing is fun. There have been quite few suggestions on this forum as to how to achieve this (like chases, creating more opportunities of ambush, ....). It's about how you feel after a fight, and that's why I think fighting has more to do with PKing in the current state of things.

So if we can get a good PvP system, or even a reasonably good one, it would be resonable to open higher sec systems to it. The way EVE was working before makes sense if the PvP system was good. PvP rules could also change or soften depending on sec rating, or even regions, (corps war, bounties and factions being tools to control this). It would be fun to see different types of PvP, since it seems to be mostly pirating so far.
But for all this, we first need a real PvP system.

EVE has a very good potential, since most of what is required to achieve this seems to be implemented.





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