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blankseplocked A better missle system
 
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Samson
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.06.10 16:18:00 - [1]
 

They should have simply made what targets a missle can hit dependant on sig radius, in sort of the same way turrets are dependant on sig radius for what they can hit by using locking. ie. torpedoes can't get a lock on a frigate sized radius, and can't hit them, while light missles can. Then you could lay out a more sensible structure for missles like you have for turrets, where large guns are for large targets due to tracking, and large missles are for large targets due to locking. You would need light missles for the tier 2 frigates, heavy for tier 3, cruise for cruiser class ships, and torpedoes for battleships.

This could be taken a step further and instead of making torpedos a guaranteed miss against frigates, give missles a locking time based on sig radius instead. Thus a torpedo for example might have a 30 second locking time vs. a small sig radius, and wouldn't be able to lock a close up frigate in time to hit it, while a frigate that was far away would be a valid target, essentially making missles the same as guns. This would also allow for the introduction of more modules as counter measures, and we already have the sig radius increase of the MWD, and the target painter modules.

Makes more sense than torpedoes do less dmg to small targets, IMO.

MutationZ
Posted - 2005.06.10 23:36:00 - [2]
 

Why dont you post your thoughts on this in the sticky in the ships and module section?


NE Weevil
hirr
Posted - 2005.06.11 00:11:00 - [3]
 

If you think about it logically though mate, most missiles will be able to lock ships. Just because the missile does more damage, doesn't mean it is less accurate. Take an ICBM for example - probably the most accurate weapon on Earth - over continental distances, and probably the most powerful too.

Correct me if I am wrong but hitting a ship with a gun uses slightly different ideaology than with a missile. The gun has to track the target and fire, the missile does it itself with the help of the ship's targetting. The problem with turrets hitting is not that the turret doesn't know where the target is, but that by the time the turret turns to fire at it the target has moved. You don't have this problem with a missile which can out maneuvre any ship in the game anyway.

Very Happy

Maxine Stirner
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.06.11 01:06:00 - [4]
 

The best solution is not a workable one however, and that would be missile acceleration and turning speed. Too laggy.

I like your solution, though the torpedo versus interceptors (and what it ought to be versus tech1 frigs) situation remains to be seen.

I have a feeling that a full volley of torpedoes is going to remain a standard tactic for taking down any frigate, which I suppose is alright, since the Raven is the only one capable of a full volley. No other weapon's system has the flexibility of missiles. Apocs can't just switch between using pulses and beams whenever they like.

What is really needed is a total battleship to frigate relationship adjustment.

Giving frigates a qualitative rather than just quantitative stat is not a bad approach, but still not the only approach. A qualitative stat for instance would make it simply impossible for the torpedo to trigger against a frigate radius or object. They would go to the frigate and just do nothing.

Obviously, the other mechanics could affect the BS-frig relationship. We could nerf turret tracking and give battleships much larger sig radii so they could hit one another. Alternately, we could get around the problem and leave turrets alone simply by introducing a new locking time formula that allows low sig objects like frigs to get close to battleship, or more likely to get under their guns. BS usually have a whole host of ultra-accurate, weapons o' death for close range encounters, which would be really silly if they didn't have NPCs to worry about. Thus any solution which adjusts other mechanics also has to deal with the mechanics of NPCs.. such as providing solo BS content in the wake of SB sig changes, or new anti-BS drone equipment. Group NPC content would also be a priority.. so you see how easilly other factors can become involved in even the simplest of changes.

Now it doesn't mean changes are not a good idea just because they're complicated.. it just means that the people who post simple changes are generally wasting everyone's time. The original poster's idea is of course much better than the average idea forum post. Still, something is needed, another variable perhaps.

RaidenMagmus
Aliastra
Posted - 2005.06.11 05:27:00 - [5]
 

Missiles cannot be avoided, unless you use defenders, or you have a very fast ship that can moves faster than the missile. I honestly don't know if it's really going to make any difference if damage is based on ship size / speed. All that will do is change the foundation of eve. In the right way? I cannot truely be sure.

Maxine Stirner
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.06.11 06:44:00 - [6]
 

There will not be many ships moving faster than 5km/s after the patch, and none with the agility to avoid a missile. Good luck even spotting one in time to use an SB.

That said, I still support the planned changes. Sometimes you gotta accept the bad with the good.

Cutter John
TARDZ
Gods of Night and Day
Posted - 2005.06.11 07:18:00 - [7]
 

Your idea isnt a bad one, but in the end, its really no different than the current proposed missile change. The goal is to reduce large missiles effectivness on small targets, something that the current changes do quite well, if not realistically enough to suit everyones tastes. Whether by missing, or by not doing as much damage, the end result is pretty much the same.

Originally by: Maxine Stirner
There will not be many ships moving faster than 5km/s after the patch, and none with the agility to avoid a missile. Good luck even spotting one in time to use an SB.

That said, I still support the planned changes. Sometimes you gotta accept the bad with the good.



some frigates will still be able to outrun torps, as they will only go 3800ish max fired from a raven(50% velocity bonus). So theres still hope for them if the raven has a full rack of target painters and setup in frigate gank mode. Won't escape any other missile though.

I too agree with the changes. It may not make the most sense in the world, but its a workable solution that i at least can come up with a semi plausible explanation for. I simply pretend that the frigate will go into evasive maneuvers, and the slugish missile or torp will explode when it reaches its closest approach point and its sensors detect the target is moving away again, only catching the frigate with the edge of the shockwave. It works for me. May not for you.

But then i'd agree to anything that reduces the number of ravens out there Confused. Raven, Raven, Raven, Raven, Raven, Raven, Raven, Raven, Raven, Raven, Raven, Raven... hmm.. something tells me a lvl 4 agent lives in that station.. I don't know what exactly, but i get that idea for some reason. Oh look! another raven! How odd.

Samson
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.06.13 17:54:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Maxine Stirner
The best solution is not a workable one however, and that would be missile acceleration and turning speed. Too laggy.



I agree Smile

Originally by: Maxine Stirner

I like your solution, though the torpedo versus interceptors (and what it ought to be versus tech1 frigs) situation remains to be seen.

I have a feeling that a full volley of torpedoes is going to remain a standard tactic for taking down any frigate, which I suppose is alright, since the Raven is the only one capable of a full volley. No other weapon's system has the flexibility of missiles. Apocs can't just switch between using pulses and beams whenever they like.

What is really needed is a total battleship to frigate relationship adjustment.



I agree here also, and I think my solution provides a greater degree of realism while making that adjustment then the current solution of reduced damage. The primary reason missles are more flexible than guns when it comes to smaller ships is that missles are not subject to tracking speed. Even with reduced dmg, this is still true, and I expect you will still be able to drive off/destroy a frigate with a couple volleys of torpedo's or cruise missles. My solution effectively puts guns and missles on an even playing field by getting rid of bigger = better more effectively, and more realistically.

You couldn't outfit your ship with torpedo launchers, and expect to hit frigates at close range, any more than you could with large guns. However, both could hit them at long range, and do their expected damage. Remember a torpedo can still hit a frigate, as long as the frigate is far enough away for the torpedo to get a lock before it's already passed by. This isn't far fetched, and is in fact an already accepted part of game play in the increased lock times that battleships have. That's the part the devs ought to like, because the code for the relationship between scan resolution, and lock times is already in game, they just have to apply it to missles, and use the sig radius of the target as a modifier.

For an added degree of realism FoF missles would automatically be progammed to target a combination of the largest signature radius and distance in fleet engagements, because they would simply go after the first target they are able to aquire a lock on. Whether it's the frigate at 20km, the cruiser at 50km, or the Battleship at 100km would depend on scan resolution of the missle being fired. It would also be fun to show the pilot of the targetted ship that he's been locked by a missle, in the same manner as with ships.


Originally by: Maxine Stirner

Giving frigates a qualitative rather than just quantitative stat is not a bad approach, but still not the only approach. A qualitative stat for instance would make it simply impossible for the torpedo to trigger against a frigate radius or object. They would go to the frigate and just do nothing.

Obviously, the other mechanics could affect the BS-frig relationship. We could nerf turret tracking and give battleships much larger sig radii so they could hit one another. Alternately, we could get around the problem and leave turrets alone simply by introducing a new locking time formula that allows low sig objects like frigs to get close to battleship, or more likely to get under their guns. BS usually have a whole host of ultra-accurate, weapons o' death for close range encounters, which would be really silly if they didn't have NPCs to worry about. Thus any solution which adjusts other mechanics also has to deal with the mechanics of NPCs.. such as providing solo BS content in the wake of SB sig changes, or new anti-BS drone equipment. Group NPC content would also be a priority.. so you see how easilly other factors can become involved in even the simplest of changes.

Now it doesn't mean changes are not a good idea just because they're complicated.. it just means that the people who post simple changes are generally wasting everyone's time. The original poster's idea is of course much better than the average idea forum post. Still, something is needed, another variable perhaps.



I don't think this is complicated at all. I'd simply be giving missles varying scan resolutions the same as ships have. Thus the only difference between missles and guns would be that guns can't hit close fast moving targets due to tracking, and large missles couldn't hit them due to a poor scan resolution, but the effect would be the same for both classes of weapon, regardless of whether the target is an npc, or a pc. Any missle could lock any sized ship, it's just a matter of how long it takes to do so. This even provides for a greater degree of skill than the current system, as a good pilot would know just by the ship he's up against, and the distance to the target whether or not his current armament would be effective, or if he should retreat, and look for more favorable combat conditions.


 

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