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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2005.04.20 14:47:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Discorporation


And thus, the god will know everything that happens in the future, which makes the action you will take known in advance, which defeats the point of free will.


I knew that someone like you would say that. Does that mean that your saying it was not an act of free-will?

Fasute Sethnakte
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2005.04.20 14:48:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Fasute Sethnakte on 20/04/2005 14:51:40
The funny thing about current Amarrian religion is that every positive belief and outlook on a tragic event is convienently put forth and blindly followed.

I myself am a bit of an materialist.

As to the GHSC being the Hand of God, it's quite possible. One cannot discount the other races being within God's control and use. Perhaps it was lack of action on God's part that let the GHSC strike at the heart of the AgM.

The GHSC said Executor Mirial was the target of the surgical theift, perhaps there is some great sin she has not been absolved of, either through lack of confession or lack of seeking forgiveness.

But, a pebble to the water creates ripples that effect all around it. If it was a divine action, then all those effected have reason to be.

One school of thought say it might be a test to see the AgM resolve. I personally do not think so. Nothing about this event deals with the stress of faith. Being a Sarumite myself, God does not play a big role in my day to day routine. This is nothing to be terribly ashamed of, just the modus operendi of me and my brethern. Whenever God does appear to a Sarumite, it is usually one large event that changes the Sarumite forever.

Case in point, Lady Sarum. Divine mandate said she had to destroy herself before the Emperor could be crowned, and Sarumites crashed the party attempting to usurp the process. For these actions, Sarum died before a heir was named. If that is not the Hand of God, you truely are an optimistic believer of a benevolent God.

It has been my opinion that God is a representation of the creatures he loves, which means he is capable of great love, and great malice.

But I digress. I could be simply wrong. It's happened before...

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.04.20 14:50:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake

I knew that someone like you would say that. Does that mean that your saying it was not an act of free-will?


Are you saying you're God?

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2005.04.20 15:30:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: Rodj Blake

I knew that someone like you would say that. Does that mean that your saying it was not an act of free-will?


Are you saying you're God?


No, I'm not.

Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2005.04.20 15:33:00 - [35]
 


Quote:
It is indeed possible to have free-will in a deterministic universe.

For example, you had free-will in the past. You had complete choice in your past actions. And yet the past is fixed, is it not?

Since God created the universe, and therefore time, we can say that God is outside of time. Thus, from His divine viewpoint, everything is simultaneously in the future, and in the past.


Wow, I just knew if we got off away from definitions of post-humanism onto old-school theology we'd be fine Cool


Ardipithecus Ramidus
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2005.04.20 16:55:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Ardipithecus Ramidus on 20/04/2005 16:57:02
To respond to the worthy who started this thread,

One of my mentors was a Civre, who though predisposed toward capitalistic endeavors nonetheless has chosen to unite with the Sarumnites. He taught me some very interesting ideas, which some may consider slightly heretical but you may understand.

The "hand of God" does not work in small ways. It is only visible at the grand scope of human existence, it only influences what must be for us all to prosper. Only extremely infrequently are such acts visible within a single lifetime. Otherwise, we would see either Minmatar or Amarrian ships spontaneously explode at every encounter.

This is because we are all allowed to make our own fate, to determine our own destiny, so that only the truly worthy may know the Grace of God. Those unable or unwilling to meet these exacting standards will never have hope of Paradise.

I suppose one could start a theological arguement as to whether God is interested at all in the Reclaiming. But I feel it is vital that every individual be allowed a chance to live a righteous life, in this generation and those to follow, which is why I feel that the Reclaiming is of utmost importance. The next generation MUST be given the opportunity to find favor with God, and the current generation has no right to deny that to them.

Where lies the hand of God in this mess? I hardly feel that God truly cares one way or another about the fate of a 50 member corporation when He has the entire mass of humanity to care about.

As for the theological implications of the theft, I simply see it as a chance to prove ourselves worthy of the name Amarr. Let's face it, we are pod pilots and have tremendous opportunity for fortune-building. This was a set-back, but hardly something that can destroy a true community of believers. If this act was divine retribution we would have seen much, much worse.

Our alliance was allowed to come together before this happened. And that, more than anything, shows that if God cares about our actions at all, He supports us. We have our allies and friends, and support from many others. We shall rebuild, and that which distracted us from our mission before is now removed, and we shall be the stronger for it.

The theological views are my own, so please direct all flames in that regard to me rather than to my comrades.

Thank you, Herko, for giving me an outlet to speak on this issue. Very Happy

Ardipithecus Ramidus

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.04.20 17:40:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: Rodj Blake

I knew that someone like you would say that. Does that mean that your saying it was not an act of free-will?


Are you saying you're God?


No, I'm not.


Then you're not omniscient and my free will is safe Cool

Rhuu
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2005.04.20 17:42:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Ardipithecus Ramidus
Our alliance was allowed to come together before this happened. And that, more than anything, shows that if God cares about our actions at all, He supports us.


This statement contradicts itself. If the ability to form an alliance is proof of God's support, then God must be good, and only allow good things to happen to those he favors.

But you were stolen from, which shows that God allows bad things to happen to those he favors, contradicting the original assumption.

So, if God doesn't simply let good things happen to those he favors, it could very well be that he allowed your alliance to form for the purpose of punishing you, teaching you humility, or just because he's just in the mood to throw some chaos into the mix.

Quote:
We have our allies and friends, and support from many others. We shall rebuild, and that which distracted us from our mission before is now removed, and we shall be the stronger for it.


Until another calamity befalls you, since we've only proven that God wants to make you guys jump.

Graelyn
Amarr
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2005.04.20 18:01:00 - [39]
 

Your arguement seems to be that God would teach us a lesson.

I for one am sure you are right on that. God never stops teaching us.

I would debate your assertion of what that lesson is.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2005.04.20 18:13:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 20/04/2005 18:13:29
Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: Rodj Blake

I knew that someone like you would say that. Does that mean that your saying it was not an act of free-will?


Are you saying you're God?


No, I'm not.


Then you're not omniscient and my free will is safe Cool


I don't need to know everything to know enough, and I don't need to be God to know what your next response is.

In fact, I already know what your response to this post of mine will be.

But you see, that doesn't mean that you don't have free will.

I tell you what, let's do a little experiment. After your next post here, I'll leave a little time before I respond. Use that time to see if you can work out what it is I'll say. You'll be pretty suprised how easy it is, although just because my answer is predictable and so pre-determined, it doesn't mean that I don't have free-will.

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.04.20 18:33:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake

I don't need to know everything to know enough, and I don't need to be God to know what your next response is.


Of course not. I'm quite predictable.

Originally by: Rodj Blake
In fact, I already know what your response to this post of mine will be.


Now now, trying to persuade me to not post isn't very nice!

Originally by: Rodj Blake
But you see, that doesn't mean that you don't have free will.


Me being predictable has got nothing to do with a god Smile

Originally by: Rodj Blake
I tell you what, let's do a little experiment. After your next post here, I'll leave a little time before I respond. Use that time to see if you can work out what it is I'll say. You'll be pretty suprised how easy it is, although just because my answer is predictable and so pre-determined, it doesn't mean that I don't have free-will.


If you assume a God exist, and that he is omniscient, then there can be no free will. Every decision you make, every choice, is logged into his memory. This means that your choices are set in stone, and that you didn't really have a choice in the first place. You might experience it as having the option to choose.

Unless your god isn't omniscient.

but hey, not really my problem, I don't believe there's such a thing as 'god' anyway Smile

Ly'sol
Caldari
Posted - 2005.04.20 20:08:00 - [42]
 

You are a slave.

You are a slave to your emperor

You are a slave to your religion

You are a slave to your god.

You have no choice. Since child birth you are indoctrinated with the belief that this slavery is freedom. That this hierarchy of slave holder god is one of enlightenment. The Empire is a slave it itself.

You must cast of your indoctrination and see the oppertunity that being a capsule pilot gives you.

Ardipithecus Ramidus
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2005.04.20 20:50:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Rhuu
Originally by: Ardipithecus Ramidus
Our alliance was allowed to come together before this happened. And that, more than anything, shows that if God cares about our actions at all, He supports us.


This statement contradicts itself. If the ability to form an alliance is proof of God's support, then God must be good, and only allow good things to happen to those he favors.

But you were stolen from, which shows that God allows bad things to happen to those he favors, contradicting the original assumption.

So, if God doesn't simply let good things happen to those he favors, it could very well be that he allowed your alliance to form for the purpose of punishing you, teaching you humility, or just because he's just in the mood to throw some chaos into the mix.

Quote:
We have our allies and friends, and support from many others. We shall rebuild, and that which distracted us from our mission before is now removed, and we shall be the stronger for it.


Until another calamity befalls you, since we've only proven that God wants to make you guys jump.


I suppose what you are arguing is that the details matter. I see them as inconsequential. This may have been a reminder to stay true to our mission as an Alliance, but this was hardly a crippling blow to our corp.

I see no contradiction, because I stated that God's only concern is the large picture, not individual cares or desires. Hence, the timing reflects that God stayed the hand of the traitor until the Alliance was formed. But after God had taken what He required, He had no need to restrain human greed and deviousness. And perhaps He did feel that there was too much stress on other areas, that we need to focus on our mission. That is an interesting idea, but certainly does not serve to counter the larger fact that we were allowed to form this Alliance before the thief was able to act.

I call this the larger fact because the existance of the Alliance has a larger impact on the situation than the individual concerns of Ubiqua Seraph. Thus, if in my opinion the larger trends are more definitive of God's will than the more isolated actions (which was the point I was arguing) then challenges that face UQS are inconsequential.

Now, I must report back to my pod, but thank you Rhuu for allowing me to clarify my position. I know that there are many who hold different viewpoints, these are mine.

May you come to understand and accept the Peace of God.

Ardipithecus

Zdragva
Posted - 2005.04.20 21:29:00 - [44]
 

Why I do believe we have touched upon this 'God cannot exist' arguement somewhere else before.

Im not quite sure of the dictionary meaning of omniscient, but if it means being everywhere at once infuencing all actions and all things, then what about time? What about the very fabric of our cosmos? Nothing exists as an isolated object free from deep connections to anything else, even if you do believe you have free will.
Infact our universe has more in common with a teeming, swollen, heaving mass like an ocean, or indeed a star, than it has in common with a 'true' void. I mean that every single action, being, object, event, and time is intimatly linked to all others, through the mere fact of all things in the universe, sharing the one universe.
Any of you science buffs out there will probably have heard of quantum entanglement, and thats the absolute epitome of what im describing.
Our actons, choices, even entire lives are no more a singular serious of actions, seperated by choice from all things, than an individual dancer performing in a grand ballet is a soloist. Each of us, and all our actions, are woven deeply, deeply dependant, and deeply influence other things, in the great interconnected 'froth' of existance that is our Universe.

And to highlight the point about freewill, I have one of my much loved thought experiments for you to consider Twisted Evil
Imagine sitting in your pod, suddenly a torpedo comes whizzing out of the blackness, straight towards you. What do you do? Do you stay, and die, albeit not permenantly, or do you warp out? and live?
If God was the reason for the torpedo, and the pod, and the head on collision between the two objects, then your free will still allowed you to escape. Only if 'God' was inside your head, manipulating whatever is in there to conclude a specific reaction to events of his choosing would you not have freewill. Although you could not tell.

Thus. A God who messes around with what exists, influencing events and outcomes, manipulating space and time, does not mean that there can be no free will. Free will, because all actions and events and times are merely different aspects of the one huge changing entity, doesnt really exist at all, with or without a God, or would continue to exist, with or without a God, so long as the choice on how to react between the ochastrated events was still that of the individual.

If you ran from the torpedo you only had 2 choices. Either one you made would have been freewill, but you could only have made 2. Tha means even if you didnt have free will in the first place, and ran or stayed, you still would have acted the exact same way as someone who had freewill. Thus actions and events have no bearing on freewill, thus freewill itself is not dependant on actions or events.

If a God played around with the fabric of the cosmos to engineer situations, that would have no effect whatsoever on your ability to make decisions. Do not come up with arguments stating that if God exists it means noone has freewill etc.
People are far too quick to make logic and arguments fit their beliefs, than vice versa. If you do not believe in God that is a statement carrying religious idealogies, so do not twist fact and logic just to suit your particular religious ideology. Unless you can come up with logic or some philosophie to back it up.

Thank you.

Zdragva
Posted - 2005.04.20 21:45:00 - [45]
 

"Every decision you make, every choice, is logged into his memory"

Memory is the recollection of things past. You cannot remember that which does not exist, has not existed yet.

Remember, there is no 'defination' of EXACTLY what a God will be in order to claim there is one. All we have is our knowledge of the Universe, of Science, and of what, if God exists, he created. (Created here, nothing else)

Time and Space are two names given to the boundaries of our Universe. They behave differently, from our point of view, but ultimatly they create the room for things to exist, and they allow outcome to precede action in order for things to occur.
If our Universe is X light years across, and is expanding, do you say that events in X+Y light years away still exist, just space hasnt reached them yet? Ofcourse not. Where there is no space, nothing from within this universe can exist, or occur.
Time is a boundary, which to us is a conundrum. Its obviously increasing like the space aspect of our Universe, because time marches on. But unlike space it would APPEAR that all knowledge of time, all action and event, infact all existance is confined right on the very tip of time, right on the crest of the expanding wave. This compared to space, where all space that has been created is free to move around in and for actions to occur within, is our deepest mystery yet regarding our own universe.

What says a God does not obey the rules he himself created?
The rules could be simple, basic, yet still allow for 'Godlike' power within the confines of those rules. Or perhaps he doesnt have to obey those rules, but time is a much deeper part of the Universe than god himself.

The facts are we do not know. You speculate and postulate, define your own boundaries and conditions and explanations and rules merely to argue with another person. Not to answer the question, or debate the topic.

I posted elsewhere that within this Universe human beings may one day exist for infinity, managing to avoid heat death of the universe through manipulating the entire universe.
((OOC thats actually the work of Freemen Dyson, heard of him?))
One day mankind may be the drving force in our universe, not time space or physical laws. imagine that, now tell me that outside our universe a consciouce being in control of all physical process could not exist. For that would be 'the' defination of a God, no?

Zdragva
Posted - 2005.04.20 21:58:00 - [46]
 

Infact our Universe is merely the by product of some 'extra universal' (like extra solar) event. Current theoretical debate points to extradimensional constructs, or forms, or whatever, colliding together, and where they clashed, and rebounded, is where our expanding universe exists.
Im not entirally 'on the ball' with all the fine details. Suffice to say there are more than 4 dimensions in existance, only 4 dimensions can human beings currently experiance in any meaningful, or full, way. It would appear, perhaps, that 'time' is an undercurrent, permeating ALL (trully ALL) things. But if not then its a condition of our universe alone, and not the greater 'multiverse'. you see te thing with these extra dimensions is that while they exist, and interconnectedly, physical process isnt so shared, and some dimensions behave, or exist, in rather fantastic ways.
For example gravity would appear to be in effect across 'our' 3 space dimensions (not sure about time Wink) and also it would appear to be in effect across a 5th dimension, perhaps more. Whereas the electroweak force (electromagnetism and the weak nuclear force combined into one theory some years ago) does not cross, and thus we cannot 'see' this other dimension. But!! we can 'feel' its gravity.. Dark matter!

Other dimensions that exist, exist so in strange ways, rolled up tight, or in rings etc. There is speculation that movement in these rolled rings in certain directions by certain objects creates positive or negative electric charge in our 4d universe, but in this other dimension it is merely movement.
For all any of us know 'true' reality could be a dull flat infinate boringness, that because of some peculularity in particular rules, combined with some mysterious force that causes actions and events known as 'time' we 'see' computers and people and planets and ships where infact there is really nothing at all.

Anyway the point of that was just to inform you that time may or may not be unique the 'appearance' of our particular 'universe' of 4 specific, 'effective' (not a good word) dimensions.

Sleazy Cabbie
Posted - 2005.04.20 23:14:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Sleazy Cabbie on 20/04/2005 23:21:46
Originally by: Ly'sol
You are a slave.

You are a slave to your emperor

You are a slave to your religion

You are a slave to your god.

You have no choice. Since child birth you are indoctrinated with the belief that this slavery is freedom. That this hierarchy of slave holder god is one of enlightenment. The Empire is a slave it itself.

You must cast of your indoctrination and see the oppertunity that being a capsule pilot gives you.


You are a slave.

You are a slave to Liberalism.

You are a slave to clever soundbytes.

You are a slave to pseudo-intellectual crossdressers who sip synth-wine and provide clever commentary on how the strong man failed, how the warrior stumbled, and how the faithful were disappointed.

Hey, at least the rest of us are participating in our own destruction, we believe in our people, I don't have the LUXURY of running off and joining the circus just to discuss post-humanism with 10 mental midgets and a bearded lady at La Maison De La Snob.

You want to die in bed reading Nietze and Engels thats your life.

Me, I prefer to die for something bigger than a belief in nothing.

Kalast Raven
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.04.21 00:57:00 - [48]
 

If God has omniscience of present, future, and past, can even he be said to have free will?


Herko Kerghans
Taleweaver
Posted - 2005.04.21 02:13:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Ardipithecus Ramidus


As for the theological implications of the theft, I simply see it as a chance to prove ourselves worthy of the name Amarr. Let's face it, we are pod pilots and have tremendous opportunity for fortune-building. This was a set-back, but hardly something that can destroy a true community of believers. If this act was divine retribution we would have seen much, much worse.

(...)

Thank you, Herko, for giving me an outlet to speak on this issue. Very Happy




My friend, it's entirely the opposite.

It's truly inspiring to see that treachery and material loss have not broken your will or your faith. A strong spirit when all else is lost... That's the true test of the warrior.

In your words there's a lesson I'll try myself to learn. I thank you for your tale, and your courage.


Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2005.04.21 07:25:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Kalast Raven
If God has omniscience of present, future, and past, can even he be said to have free will?




Yes, he can, in the same way that you can have knowledge of your past and still jave free-will. To God, our future is in the past, because he exists outside the normal space-time continuum


Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.04.21 07:30:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake

Yes, he can, in the same way that you can have knowledge of your past and still jave free-will. To God, our future is in the past, because he exists outside the normal space-time continuum



Not entirely true. If he does exist, and the Scriptures are true, then we have at least one physical manifestation within our universe. The magnetic storms in New Eden.

You just gave another reason why god and free will are mutually exclusive, btw.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2005.04.21 08:23:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 21/04/2005 08:23:12
Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: Rodj Blake

Yes, he can, in the same way that you can have knowledge of your past and still jave free-will. To God, our future is in the past, because he exists outside the normal space-time continuum



Not entirely true. If he does exist, and the Scriptures are true, then we have at least one physical manifestation within our universe. The magnetic storms in New Eden.

You just gave another reason why god and free will are mutually exclusive, btw.


The fact that He created the universe means that he must exist beyond it.

The fact that He created the universe means that he must be capable of interacting with it.

You just gave another reason why you should burned at the stake as a heretic, btw.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2005.04.21 08:26:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Discorporation

If you assume a God exist, and that he is omniscient, then there can be no free will. Every decision you make, every choice, is logged into his memory. This means that your choices are set in stone, and that you didn't really have a choice in the first place. You might experience it as having the option to choose.

Unless your god isn't omniscient.

but hey, not really my problem, I don't believe there's such a thing as 'god' anyway Smile


I refer you to my earlier statement regarding memory.

Just because your memories of an incident are fixed (within limits), it does not mean that you did not have free-will when that incident was occuring.

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.04.21 09:10:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Discorporation on 21/04/2005 09:14:15
Originally by: Rodj Blake


I refer you to my earlier statement regarding memory.


I don't think you understand. If the future is known to an entity, the choices you make are known as well. So, it doesn't matter if you choose something, since it was already known you were going to make that choice.

If there is a god, it is aware of -everything- at any given moment, past present or future. Thus, your choices are known in advance. If that is the case, it means that the future is a set path, from which you cannot deviate (as God knows about what you're going to do in advance). Your choices have no meaning, you were always going to make them the way god intended.

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Just because your memories of an incident are fixed (within limits), it does not mean that you did not have free-will when that incident was occuring.


An interesting statement. If god is 'remembering' this all, then this already happened, the future is pre-ordained and free will is an illusion. On the other hand, if god is aware of the future and isn't remembering it, then the future is pre-ordained and .. Ohh wait, free will will -still- be an illusion!

Originally by: Rodj Blake
The fact that He created the universe means that he must exist beyond it.


Not neccesarily. But okay.

Originally by: Rodj Blake
The fact that He created the universe means that he must be capable of interacting with it.


Allright Smile

Originally by: Rodj Blake
You just gave another reason why you should burned at the stake as a heretic, btw.


I am quite comfortable with that. I don't believe there's a god, that I am making my own choices and force my will unto the universe. If I die, whatever, I'll be gone and there will be nothing after that. So it doesn't matter. On the other hand, if there is a god, then I'm comfortable in the knowledge that I have been following his plan all along, since there's no free will if the choices I make are pre-ordained. Whatever he does to me after I die will be irrelevant, since I never had the option of changing that anyway.

Smile

The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2005.04.21 09:10:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 21/04/2005 09:11:31
Originally by: Discorporation

If you assume a God exist, and that he is omniscient, then there can be no free will. Every decision you make, every choice, is logged into his memory. This means that your choices are set in stone, and that you didn't really have a choice in the first place. You might experience it as having the option to choose.



Although I am a heretic and a transhumanist, I remember enough of my old theological training to know there is a rather elegant answer to this question which emphasises such a posited God's love of free will.

That is, while such a God may be omniscient, He may choose not to exercise His power in that regard with respect to the future choices of individuals. In giving free will to His creations, such a God does Himself, under this theological scenario, exercise His own free will and lay aside, for this special purpose, His omniscience.

Having said that, I see no need to cling to such totems and look forward to the days of godlike Posthuman Anarchs.

The Cosmopolite

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.04.21 09:22:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: The Cosmopolite

That is, while such a God may be omniscient, He may choose not to exercise His power in that regard with respect to the future choices of individuals. In giving free will to His creations, such a God does Himself, under this theological scenario, exercise His own free will and lay aside, for this special purpose, His omniscience.


I don't think that matters. Whatever choice we're going to make, the god knows about it. In advance. The choice not to know it is not important, because he can know, if he chooses to.

Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Having said that, I see no need to cling to such totems and look forward to the days of godlike Posthuman Anarchs.



An interesting debate would be; if technology advances sufficiently that we are omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient, does that make us god? If we are aware of everything that occurs, are we still seperate beings? Will the human race eventually evolve to a commonality, a single entity composed of countless trillions of exact fragments, each aware of everything, able to do anything, able to be everywhere?

Has this already occured, and are we merely the memories of that entity, that it plays back in order to remember where it came from?

All fun theoretical dung and also entirely irrelevant to what we are experiencing. Enjoy the now, you're not going to get much more of them

Zdragva
Posted - 2005.04.21 12:55:00 - [57]
 

Think of this then discorporation.

If our universe collapses in the future it will form exactly what we erupted from in the beginning. If the initial conditions are identical everytime, and the universe collapses and expands ad infinitum, then we will eventually relive our lives again identically over and over again forever.

If our universe expands forever and we manage to find a way to survive forever, then because there is only a finite amount of matter in the universe, there is only a finite amount of configurations of this matter, thus we will think the same thoughts over and over again, eventually, forever.

There might be other outcomes though, I hope to god there is, eh? LaughingLaughing

Zdragva
Posted - 2005.04.21 13:13:00 - [58]
 

"I don't think you understand. If the future is known to an entity, the choices you make are known as well. So, it doesn't matter if you choose something, since it was already known you were going to make that choice. "

Ummmm hate to spoil your absolutions of logic and fact, but what we live in doesnt follow the logical paths your mind says it should.
If everything were so logical and matter of fact, and SIMPLE then we would not have computers e.g.

The Past, Present, and Future, to us, are specific points, but no matter what point in time we reach, the future is always ahead, the past always behind etc.

Thats not how the Universe and TIME behaves in REALITY though.
Remember (if u read) how i wrote all things are connectedin a big 'froth' of reality? Well the past, present, and future and all things inbetween and all objects and forces all exist. The problem is HUMANS dont have this kind of perception of reality.
If something in the past was to change, all things linked to it, by forces etc. and BY TIME would change to 'tidy up' and make things workout basiclly.

Like if you removed a Star, all its orbit items would suddenly fly off, also all the things this star would smash into the future would suddenly be saved from that particular fate in the future. If (pretend you are a God) then took this star and travelled 2 billion years into the future and smashed it into a bunch of other stars, the universe would compensate, and the star would appear in its orginal place AND time, where u stole it from.

The Universe will not allow paradox's. It does this by compensating. In our universe you cannot create 'extra' stuff. Therefor the universe itself will manipulate what there is in order to make things 'work out'.

The future will change according to what happened previously, the same as the PAST will change to accomodate a set of final conditions that exist in the future.

Nothing is set, anywhere, anytime. Infact its constantly changing. History changes constantly, by changing the now you affect what happens in the future, and if something occurs in the future then the past must lead up to it.

Although it makes no sense, it actually makes perfect sense. And regardless of whether or not you believe this, it would appear that this is how things work.

what you are arguing over is irrelevant, science has already voided your arguments. If there is a God then we arnt aware of him interfering with our universe. There is no past present or future in reality, there is only ALL THINGS, and how they relate to each other.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2005.04.21 13:22:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Discorporation
Edited by: Discorporation on 21/04/2005 09:14:15
I don't think you understand. If the future is known to an entity, the choices you make are known as well. So, it doesn't matter if you choose something, since it was already known you were going to make that choice.




But we've already determined that just because I know that you're going to do something, it doesn't mean that you won't exercise free will to do it.


Quote:
If there is a god, it is aware of -everything- at any given moment, past present or future. Thus, your choices are known in advance. If that is the case, it means that the future is a set path, from which you cannot deviate (as God knows about what you're going to do in advance). Your choices have no meaning, you were always going to make them the way god intended.


If you don't believe in God, how can you speculate on His nature?

Quote:
An interesting statement. If god is 'remembering' this all, then this already happened, the future is pre-ordained and free will is an illusion. On the other hand, if god is aware of the future and isn't remembering it, then the future is pre-ordained and .. Ohh wait, free will will -still- be an illusion!


Again, just because you can remember your own past, it doesn't mean that you didn't have free will back then.


Zdragva
Posted - 2005.04.21 13:37:00 - [60]
 

The real problem I think though is that your debating God, which is always futile.

You wonder if God obeys the rules of time, if God fiddles about with things, what Gods motives are, if God has given us free will or not.. All that is futile.
If you use facts and logic, based upon your knowledge and experiances, it says nothing. Facts and logic based upon knowledge merely gives some kind of understanding of whats around us. The more we question and theorise the more we discover and understand, but its all about us, our universe, our existance (repeating myself i know) and thats it. Science, logic, fact, understanding doesnt address God in any way, it addresses whats around us. It gives us a description of the mechanics of our existance, it opens up new avenues for us to test and contemplate, but its always going to be about that next step beyond what we currently know.

You cant say, human beings are proof for/against God, or that space and time is proof for/against God. Its merely what exists, what we are testing and contemplating and exploring.

The cold stark facts and rules of our universe, and anything else we know about, are the cold stark facts and rules about what we know about, they dont apply to anything else, because we dont know about it.

You cant apply logic to God, A: because you dont know what god is, and B: you dont know if logic really works ultimatly, because we dont have ultimate knowledge yet.

My point is that your trying to apply the rules that APPEAR to be the rules in this little enclosed area of existance, to something no one has any idea about whatsoever.
Imo thats like being blindfolded, with earplugs and your hands tied behind your back, and trying to describe something that might be in front of you, but you cant be sure that what applies to everything else you have encountered applies to it.

Rather than debate how God might act, or what logic might apply to God, or what implications God has for stuff, instead simply debate whether or not God 'might' exist or not. Because anything/everything else is pointless.


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