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blankseplocked My list of stuff thats crippling the POS industry
 
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AnalogCapitalist
Posted - 2005.03.30 20:58:00 - [1]
 

Well, Eve isnt all PvP, its industry too. "Player driven market" is the buzzword, but without the tools that wont happen. I have gathered some old POS grievances here, things that have been festering all through EXODUS so far, in the hopes that they will get some attention. If you want more, go read in stations and starbases forum section. Too few people bother these days.

Ok, my list of stuff that cripples the POS industry :

1. POS fuel consumption.

POS consume too much ice products per day. Ensuring an adequate supply takes much effort. Time equals isk, and as long as the cost of running a POS is as high as it is today other endeavours are much more profitable. Hauling the fuel is another expense that few people factor in.

2. Ice harvesting.

Mining Ice is something best done AFK 99.5% of the time. 5 seconds every 15 minutes is sufficient to move the icicles from your hold to a jet can or hauler.

3. Component manufacturing complexity

Moon Material --> Simple compounds --> Advanced materials --> Construction component
The complexity of this process from moon harvesting to finished component makes for added costs along the way. All POS operators involved want a piece of the profits. Consider if tritanium always went through 4 different peoples hands before it reached the shipbuilders. What would it cost ?

4. Agent drops.

No POS operator can compete with agent dropped components or materials. The industry that does exist has been making the most desirable, complicated and expensive advanced materials and many of them are still running with very small profits or at a loss.

5. The limited usefulness of POS as bases.

POS are not viable as a base of operations for a corporation operating in 0.0. As an outpost they are useful for storage of ores and equipment and limited refining. The lack of advanced modules makes most POS out there today single role, either as parts of a component chain, or as mining outposts.

6. POS powergrid and CPU imbalance.

CPU capacity on the control tower is the deciding factor in what you can do with your tower. Some advanced reactions can only be done on Caldari towers. Silly enough all towers have plenty powergrid to spare unless you go for lots of the big turrets. CPU vs powergrid use on essential industrial structures need to be rebalanced. One would think that a refinery that melts rocks would use relatively more power than CPU, but thats not the case.

Face Lifter
Posted - 2005.03.30 21:10:00 - [2]
 

I don't own or deal with POS, so my opinion weighs little. What you say does make sense tho. I know some people were very successful at using their POS for refining high end ores far from other stations.. but most POS seem like a waste of time.

Another thing that kinda bothers me is how little impact POS have in PvP. I'm a member of alliance, our alliance corps have many POS set up. Our enemy also has many POS. But does any of it matters? I never hear anything about POS, I never go to any of those POS, our gangs never try to take over or destroy anyone's POS. As far as non-industrial player is concerned, POS don't do jack for this game. No visible effect whatsoever.

Noriath
Posted - 2005.03.30 21:17:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Noriath on 30/03/2005 21:19:52
Edited by: Noriath on 30/03/2005 21:18:05
Get rid of Level 4 missions and POS will be awsome...

Heck, get rid of Level 4 missions and everything that right now is not half as profitable as grinding missions will be awsome...

Which incidentally is every singe occupation besides "mission grinder" in the game including tech 2 manufacturing...

The problem is really not the complexity of it, but the fact that you'll have a really hard time finding enough people who are dedicated to the process as long as they can run missions for three times the profit without making any kind of comitment...

Raem Civrie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.03.30 21:38:00 - [4]
 

Lvl 4 missions don't need to go. They're already removing tech2 component rewards from missions, which means that the PoS industry will have to bear the entire load.

As for the amount of hitpoints these PoS have, and the general lack of usability they have as mobile bases...

Noriath
Posted - 2005.03.30 21:54:00 - [5]
 

They need to go...

They screwed the economy because they are more profitable then any other venture in the game while creating new money constantly instead of taking it from existing pools causing massive inflation.
They are flooding the market with Tech 1 items that nobody built but that were spawned as rewards, thereby making manufacturing items unprofitable in general.
And they drain the playerbase of experienced pilots by offering people higher rewards for staying in empire space and running missions all day then to work on creating and running player stations.
And they create a surplus of named loot that in most cases are only slighty inferior to tech 2 versions, however are sold for a fraction of the price.

AnalogCapitalist
Posted - 2005.03.30 22:03:00 - [6]
 

Noriath, please take the level 4 discussion somewhere else. This is about POS, nothing else.

Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.03.30 22:06:00 - [7]
 

Only problem I see is that you can't give a member access to the refitting array without giving them the ability to unanchor the whole POS and haul it away in the night. Shocked

Reku
Posted - 2005.03.30 22:11:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Noriath
Edited by: Noriath on 30/03/2005 21:19:52
Edited by: Noriath on 30/03/2005 21:18:05
Get rid of Level 4 missions and POS will be awsome...

WOW. Just wow... Way to talk nonsense. Like saying get rid of blue prints and instas will get fixed. Make sense? No? Though so.

Noriath
Posted - 2005.03.30 22:16:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Noriath on 30/03/2005 22:16:43

Yea, whatever you're trying to tell me is exactly like what I said ... with the slight difference that my post acctually did make sense, if you spend the time to read and understand it anyways...

Hey, ever noticed how the ecconomy sucks ever since Level 4 missions are in?

Yea, that's right... because before there were Level 4 missions people had to go out to more dangerous areas to make money or manufacture items - and that's when Eve worked.

Reku
Posted - 2005.03.30 22:23:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Reku on 30/03/2005 22:44:50
Originally by: Noriath
Yea, whatever you're trying to tell me is exactly like what I said ... with the slight difference that my post acctually did make sense, if you spend the time to read and understand it anyways...

I read it, twice actually and it doesn't make sense at all. Maybe it makes sense for you and your 'ideas' how eve is supposed to work, but for me it doesnt make sense atall. I am just glad dev are not even planning to do anything stupid as removing level 4 missions.

Oh and add to that 'economy sucks'. What are you on about? Ever since level 4 missions there have been sold more battleships than ever before. Sure there was slight inflation, but also demand got up that effected it. It seem to working just fine as there is very much trades being done and producers have big market where they can compete with prices.

Katarine
Posted - 2005.03.30 22:41:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Noriath
Edited by: Noriath on 30/03/2005 22:16:43

Yea, whatever you're trying to tell me is exactly like what I said ... with the slight difference that my post acctually did make sense, if you spend the time to read and understand it anyways...

Hey, ever noticed how the ecconomy sucks ever since Level 4 missions are in?

Yea, that's right... because before there were Level 4 missions people had to go out to more dangerous areas to make money or manufacture items - and that's when Eve worked.


I think its actually kind of funny every time this discussion comes up and I hear 'nothing can compete with level 4 missions.'. I have a level 4 grind character, and a trade/build character. The trade character makes more per hour every hour, and twice as much on the weekends, with much of that time just moving minerals around and watching my wallet blink.

And actually, I've noticed how vibrant the economy is, if anything I think it is better. I enjoy trading far more than I do missions. I have diversified since getting my trade skills up and now I get to play in Tech II components, minerals, tools, and modules/weapons. As I have said before, maybe the economy is different, but its certainly not worse; it says more about the person complaining than it does about the game.

ollobrains
5th Front enterprises
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2005.03.30 23:21:00 - [12]
 

The problem is those that complain suggest changes to POS are the only ones talking - those that use em and are quite fine arent likley to speak up - id like to see tech 2 components dropped by level 4 agents BUT..... about 10% as much as now make em much rarer.

Lets see what they come up with after this current patch ie the one that should come in may

Zuschia Devalera
Amarr
Posted - 2005.03.30 23:30:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Zuschia Devalera on 30/03/2005 23:30:48
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Only problem I see is that you can't give a member access to the refitting array without giving them the ability to unanchor the whole POS and haul it away in the night. Shocked



Very good point.

My corp has been running a POS in 0.0 for about a month now and I must say, I'm really underwhelmed by its utility, as well as it's apparent prospects for being profitable in light of the resources and effort needed to keep the thing running at all.


I find myself somewhat curious about the thinking behind POS mechanics. It's almost as if the designers said, "Okay...we have this really cool new feature we're going to add to EVE to revolutionize gameplay. Now, what can we do to it to make nearly every aspect about it completely asinine?" To wit:

1. You have to be within 1500 meters of a ship maintenance array and no one and nothing else can be within a certain range (5000m?) of it at the same time to use it. Huh?

2. You don't actually dock and go inside the maintenance array, you just dump your ship in there and then sit in your pod. Launching or boarding a ship from the array removes your name from the ship tag on the HUD so no one can tell who is in what ship. Now that's a cool feature.

3. What of the coolness of being able to refit your ship in deep space? Oh it's cool alright, but to make sure it's not too cool, we'll make your cap almost totally drain each time you fit a new module so you can sit there for minutes on end waiting for your cap to recharge in order to fit a new module. Nothing like 30 minutes changing loadouts. Well, I guess there's always parking a energy-transfer Scorp closeby and going through the hassle of making that workaround function.

4. Have friends in other corps you would like to extend the use of your POS modules to? Too bad...they can have a nice, expensive safe spot though (which is what it really amounts to for the corp running it, as well).

5. The POS as a refining outpost. This is a good one...best you can get is 75% yield (I guess that is better than nothing) and it takes three freaking hours per refine. On top of that..no mixing of ore types. Thanks again for gobs of new ore types. The intensive refining array gobbles up fuel at an alarming rate, so you often need to take it offline to staunch the bleeding. Why not waste more of the players' time by making it take an hour to put it online again? Done!

6. Ice mining for fuel. It's excruciating. I've done it. 3 people in barges for hours on end for a few days fuel. Now that's a good time. How can we make it more asinine? How about a nice 9-minute cycle to really bore you to tears over and above what mining of anything is like in the first place.

7. 0.0...or at least several areas of it just suck for moon mining. Way to go...makes sense. Wink Add to that the need to mine fuel in Empire and truck it to 0.0 and you've got yourself a shaky proposition, at best. Between lvl 4 missions and better POS-related aspects, Empire space is where it's at, I guess. Yay for 0.0 space.


I'm sure there's more, but this is what came to mind. POS and game-supported Alliance structure. Could have been cool, but really, neither are as currently implemented.



Abraxus
The Scope
Posted - 2005.03.30 23:32:00 - [14]
 

I agree about lvl 4 missions needing to go. I just started them, and why the hell should I do anything else now?

Its easy money, real easy. No worries about anything. Just money coming in left right and center.

Having them nerfed down to lvl 3 level with nicer agent offers would help the EVE economy a lot.

(Yes I know I went off topic a bitugh)

Lygos
Amarr
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2005.03.30 23:39:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Lygos on 30/03/2005 23:40:37
1) Scrap ice. Alternately, implement weaker POS that mine ice moons for you with just a little regular injection of normal minerals or some commodity. Amend the Ice Mining skill people have trained to also affect POS ice thingy efficiency as well. Actual ice fields can just serve as a supplement.

2) Make Conquerable Stations require a huge sum of POS products to power shields and to make all services such as offices, market, factories, refining (and quality), and escrow or others except cloning available. If you don't have an industrial wing at your HQ, it doesn't do jack except provide a vulnerable hangar.

3) Allow Conquerable Stations to remain indestructable, but make it to where an anchored module, if fed and protected, creates a Conquerable station eventually.

Orb Lati
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.03.30 23:39:00 - [16]
 

7. BPO LOTTERY AND BPO COPYING ISSUES

We have the POS industry which is ment to supply the market for Tech 2 manfacture.
Tech2 BPOs however are only avaible by a screwed up lottery system which means very few have them.
Tech 2 BPOS need to be as plentiful as tech 1 BPOS if POS operators and componet manufacturing have any hope of having a decent market.

Also copying a BPO should not take longer than manufacturing from it. Make it actually possible for more BPCs to get into the game.

(additional:
i agree. Agent runners should only get those items that dont directly compete with manfacturing. Agent drops are being altered now to only drop complex and basic reactions instead of compnets. But IMHO this is not enough. they shouldnt get anything that impinges on the creation process.
Actually i would rather they get limited tech2 BPCs every so often instead or increase usefull items such as faction ships or Implants)

Xavier Arron
Minmatar
The Knights of Ni
Posted - 2005.03.30 23:56:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Xavier Arron on 30/03/2005 23:56:50
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Only problem I see is that you can't give a member access to the refitting array without giving them the ability to un-anchor the whole POS and haul it away in the night. Shocked


Full access rights for POS modules need to be implemented. Some system similar to conquerable stations where you can set standings and cost modifiers for using certain facilities would be good (as long as they get it to work this time).

E.g. it would be possible to limit access to a POS module to corp members only, alliance members only, or limit by standing (so setting to 0.0 would allow anyone to use that facility).

For example you could open up the refining array to alliance members only or even all corps, and be able to set a fee for its use, e.g. keep 5% of refined materials when its done.

Other modules that are needed to make the POS more useful would include deployable remote armour repairers and shield repairers, which automatically repair ships inside the shield which have correct permissions / standings.

POS Factories are also needed, and CPU requirements rebalancing so that its possible to run more of the facility modules, like refineries and ship refitting arrays.

CPU should be the limiting factor to how many POS components you can deploy and a fixed cost. Power usage should depend on the usage of the modules themselves so that the cost of running a base that is hardly used and just idling is considerably less than one that is being used daily to refine and repair ships. Guns should also draw more power when in use, but use less power when idling etc

It should also be possible to give read / drop only access rights to the CT fuel hanger so that empire merchants / alliance friends / alliance members can be paid to refuel a POS, without the owner having to be there to transfer the goods.

These changes would help lift the burden of running a POS / multiple POS and make POS more useful as trade hubs and repair and staging areas, if access to key modules could be controlled without having to give deployment rights or have players from other corps sign up alts to be able to use your facilities.

Lufio II
Amarr
Marangrio Space Services Inc.
Posted - 2005.03.30 23:57:00 - [18]
 

Well, back to the topic of POSes, shall we...

I am actually running a POS in 0.0, not too far away from empire yet.

I am in the lucky situation to have 4 to 5 people in my corp who are dedicated to the corp and really interested in bringing it forward. Well, actually I would be able to run that POS alone if I really wanted to. For me it takes like 12,5 hours to mine the ice needed for one week, if I get my members together, we're done in 4 hours or less, for one week where we can actually put the POS into use, which we do in the sense of a mining outpost.

We do fill up that intense refining array maybe twice a week with hedbergite or hemorphite (yes, not even the really good high end ores) and we're working profitable. We even are profitable by just refining once a week...

And don't tell me that you would want to haul 200000m of any ore back to a station x jumps away, just to save that few hours of ice mining and fueling the pos once a week? Even if it's only a 75% yield, it's still better (time wise) than moving that bulky ore somewhere else...

Admittedly, lvl 4 missions would of course pay more for now, but I actually like to have something done for my money, and so does a majority of my corps members.

I do agree on the agent drops of the T2 components, tho.

Paw Sandberg
Gallente
Quantum Industries
Prime Orbital Systems
Posted - 2005.03.31 00:49:00 - [19]
 

damn leave the lvl 4 mission out of this (cant start a discusion without everything being the lvl 4 agents fault)

that list does cover the basic flaws of the POS

we need the advanced modules ingame ASAP

with the tech II rewards being taken out hopefully the POS will see some more profit from construction

the promised Coproccesser and extra power for the POS (modules) will also help make all the POS more useble

the 75% max refine + the 3 hour is to much remove the 3 hour penalty on refining

for lords sake give us R&D and factory's with items that can only be produced in 0.0 (as well a R&D)

let us use the R&D (labs) to reverse engineer items (and get BPC)

let ppl be able to dock so they can use the market (thats a major item)


F'nog
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2005.03.31 01:45:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: ollobrains
The problem is those that complain suggest changes to POS are the only ones talking - those that use em and are quite fine arent likley to speak up - id like to see tech 2 components dropped by level 4 agents BUT..... about 10% as much as now make em much rarer.

Lets see what they come up with after this current patch ie the one that should come in may


Probably because there's no one who thinks they work well.

There are those, like my corp, who use them to the best of their limited ability, and have had some success, but no one will sing their praises, because there's nothing to praise. They need FAR more functionality to be truely useful and make an actual effect on the game.

Until we have factories, labs, useful fitting hangars, CPU upgrades, etc. they're nothing more than glorified safespots and handy, but limited and costly, refineries.

Noriath
Posted - 2005.03.31 01:51:00 - [21]
 

The level 4 agents are a big problem because they ruin the player economy by just dumping gigantic amounts of stuff into the market that comes out of basicly nowhere.

They don't even have to be completly removed, just changed...
Move them more and more out to lowsec so people have to go there and remove rewards that directly compete with manufacturing and POS...

It's just not enough to remove only tech 2 components as rewards - rewards like 25 frigs just sufficate low level manufacturers before they even have a chance to start on something high level...

On top of that it's just ridiculous that you are basicly forced to run dozens of missions in order to even get a chance to generate a lot of research points...

Lagartija Nick
Aliastra
Posted - 2005.03.31 01:54:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Lufio II
For me it takes like 12,5 hours to mine the ice needed for one week, if I get my members together, we're done in 4 hours or less, for one week where we can actually put the POS into use, which we do in the sense of a mining outpost.



At this rate, 25 days of your year will be spent ice mining to keep your tower up.

A part time job, working 4 hours a day, 5 days per week would eat up 40 days of your year.

Enjoy your ice.

Zdragva
Posted - 2005.03.31 03:00:00 - [23]
 

From what iv seen, control towers etc. have more in common with giant secure cans than Stations :P

I dont use them, but I agree that pre-exodus and any actual info, the IDEA of a POS was really cool.
From what I do know they suck badly, an NPC refinary will take ore off you according to your standings, so why shouldnt your POS give you 100% yield?

I say lower their shields slightly, and max their yield, that way people will want to use them for mining in low sec, and it might ENCOURAGE people out of high sec to use them.

I understand that CCP wont want any 30 minute Eve junky to own and supply a run a POS, but do they realise that for corps who do use them the vast majority of the workload will automatically fall on the shoulders of the CEO's and 'valuable' members, i.e perhaps 5 people in a 30 person corp will regularly assist, if that.

I reckon CCP need to lower POS fuel consumption so that you can run maybe 4 for the current effort of running 2, and combine the POS will some 'real' kind of formal territory possesion AND deployable sentry guns, so that a corp of 50 people e.g could find a nice 2-3 systems, launch theyre 4 pos or whatever to get all the materials (or lots i dont use pos so forgive my ignorance :P) for t2 production, and also deploy sentry guns at gates of those systems, effectivlly claiming and defending a nice area of valuable space, and encouraging aggressive people to take on this little base.

/emotes sighs at the lack of thought put into POS implementation

Mikelangelo
Gallente
Posted - 2005.03.31 03:46:00 - [24]
 

That just about sums it up.


Unemployed
Caldari
Caldari State Institute of Advanced Engineering
Posted - 2005.03.31 04:05:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Only problem I see is that you can't give a member access to the refitting array without giving them the ability to unanchor the whole POS and haul it away in the night. Shocked


signed

Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Posted - 2005.03.31 05:07:00 - [26]
 

You know, if player-owned stations were fully functional, and alliances weren't as kill-happy as they are now, you might actually be able to just set up a big buy order for minerals/ice/whatever at your station, and let trader PCs fill the demand for you buy buying ice from miner PCs in empire space and trucking it out to your station.

But maybe I'm just full of the crazy tonight.

Lagartija Nick
Aliastra
Posted - 2005.03.31 05:09:00 - [27]
 

Doesn't change the fact that someone has to spend 25 days worth of their time per year mining ice to keep those stations up. And I'm sorry, thats just insanity.

MutationZ
Posted - 2005.03.31 07:03:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Zuschia Devalera
Edited by: Zuschia Devalera on 30/03/2005 23:30:48
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Only problem I see is that you can't give a member access to the refitting array without giving them the ability to unanchor the whole POS and haul it away in the night. Shocked



Very good point.

My corp has been running a POS in 0.0 for about a month now and I must say, I'm really underwhelmed by its utility, as well as it's apparent prospects for being profitable in light of the resources and effort needed to keep the thing running at all.


I find myself somewhat curious about the thinking behind POS mechanics. It's almost as if the designers said, "Okay...we have this really cool new feature we're going to add to EVE to revolutionize gameplay. Now, what can we do to it to make nearly every aspect about it completely asinine?" To wit:

1. You have to be within 1500 meters of a ship maintenance array and no one and nothing else can be within a certain range (5000m?) of it at the same time to use it. Huh?

2. You don't actually dock and go inside the maintenance array, you just dump your ship in there and then sit in your pod. Launching or boarding a ship from the array removes your name from the ship tag on the HUD so no one can tell who is in what ship. Now that's a cool feature.

3. What of the coolness of being able to refit your ship in deep space? Oh it's cool alright, but to make sure it's not too cool, we'll make your cap almost totally drain each time you fit a new module so you can sit there for minutes on end waiting for your cap to recharge in order to fit a new module. Nothing like 30 minutes changing loadouts. Well, I guess there's always parking a energy-transfer Scorp closeby and going through the hassle of making that workaround function.

4. Have friends in other corps you would like to extend the use of your POS modules to? Too bad...they can have a nice, expensive safe spot though (which is what it really amounts to for the corp running it, as well).

5. The POS as a refining outpost. This is a good one...best you can get is 75% yield (I guess that is better than nothing) and it takes three freaking hours per refine. On top of that..no mixing of ore types. Thanks again for gobs of new ore types. The intensive refining array gobbles up fuel at an alarming rate, so you often need to take it offline to staunch the bleeding. Why not waste more of the players' time by making it take an hour to put it online again? Done!

6. Ice mining for fuel. It's excruciating. I've done it. 3 people in barges for hours on end for a few days fuel. Now that's a good time. How can we make it more asinine? How about a nice 9-minute cycle to really bore you to tears over and above what mining of anything is like in the first place.

7. 0.0...or at least several areas of it just suck for moon mining. Way to go...makes sense. Wink Add to that the need to mine fuel in Empire and truck it to 0.0 and you've got yourself a shaky proposition, at best. Between lvl 4 missions and better POS-related aspects, Empire space is where it's at, I guess. Yay for 0.0 space.


I'm sure there's more, but this is what came to mind. POS and game-supported Alliance structure. Could have been cool, but really, neither are as currently implemented.





Excellent post! Hope the dev's are paying attention

AnalogCapitalist
Posted - 2005.03.31 13:17:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: AnalogCapitalist on 31/03/2005 13:17:54
With the change in agent drops the POS industry will still be experiencing competition from agent runners, but lower in the chain. Advanced material integrators will benefit and the people who actually mine the moons will suffer instead.

Level 4 mission rewards and POS are not connected in any way except that you sometimes get tech II drops from the agent. That is not something new, but for the POS industry to thrive the drops must go from all agent missions, not just level 4.

Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Posted - 2005.03.31 15:37:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Lagartija Nick
Doesn't change the fact that someone has to spend 25 days worth of their time per year mining ice to keep those stations up. And I'm sorry, thats just insanity.



Er, it's not insanity. If you have 100 people trucking in ice to sell to your station (or refining it there and you are taking a cut), each of them is spending a whole 6 hours a year supporting your station. And if that's what they want to do with their game time, what's wrong with that? How many days a year do miners spend mining? Or traders spend trading? I spent about 15 hours two weekends ago buying and selling trade goods and trucking them around, and doing nothing else. That's what I chose to do with my time.

If you buy ice from people who aren't necessarily in your corp or your alliance (and there's plenty of people with barges who aren't affiliated with any agency that owns a station), you don't have to mine it. You can do whatever else to get the money and just buy it. This is what manufacturers do for minerals. It only doesn't work with stations now because a) they don't have a market (as far as I can tell, I have never known anyone with a station or seen how it works, to be honest), and b) the people who own stations sit at chokepoints and gank anyone who comes through because they might "steal their ore" or "steal their spawns," instead of letting people through and just taking a cut from people who refine at their stations.

I don't blame corps and alliances for b), so don't get super defensive -- right now, they have limited options for defense and player-owned stations are not even close to the same as NPC stations, so they can't do exactly what I'm talking about. I'm just saying, if player-owned stations were more like NPC stations, and "defense" was not all about ganking anyone who tries to come through "your" territory, then there would be a better solution to this problem.


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