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Tularek
Posted - 2003.07.04 04:54:00 - [1]
 

How about the big boat users get theirs. Since now any fool with 200k can compete with my 100million piece of equipment which I dont care how fast you ship goes or what I load it should stand no chance 20 of them should stand no chance. Since people claim "turrets are realistic" or "things wouldn't work like that" well lets shoot for total realism. Basically your Frigate is like a speed boat with a 50mm mounted gun. And your attacking my Destroyer class ship in the naval fleet.

Let's address several points of "realism" A. Your ship is to small to Carry ANY type of weaponry that should effect my shields let alone my armor. B. My gun SHOULD get a bonus modifier on your smaller ship since my shells are about the size of your ship and kill you in 1 shot period. If there are 8 frigs 30km from me in all fairness to "realism" I can point 1 gun at each of you and you all go POOF period. The day that a frigate or 10 frigates or 20 frigates stand a chance against a battle ship all BS users might as well quit because that is BS!!!!

Lets take the best frigate best gear whats that cost 10 million for 20 suped up frigs. Hmm against a 100 million isk battleship they should stand no chance period. I'm tired of all the lets help the weaker players, let's help the care bears, hell why your at it why don't you just make it so if I want to attack someone they have to accept my request. That'll make for a really fun game. Oh yeah incase you dont get my points unless im being attacked by atleast 50 suped of frigates they should get wiped out by 1 Battleship because in realife those little speed boats would get annihiliated so why wouldn't they in space.

Again my shells are just about as big as your ship. Heck I'm basically stuffing a bantaam in a cannon and shooting it at you. And just so we're clear I already know the only people who will agree this point are the weak players so don't bother. Now if cruisers want to attack a BS thats fine need to be atleast 5 but thats more fair. Frigates shouldn't be able to damage a BS or very little and should be killed in 1 shot because large shells need to get a damage multiplier vs. small ships. What do you think will hurt more an ak-47 full clip or 1 105mm shell from an m1a1-abram.....think it over.

Tularek
Posted - 2003.07.04 04:58:00 - [2]
 

Oh and I mean't the only people who will ARGUE with me are the little frigate users please dont post something stupid like learn to type or attack my sentence syntax, another tool the losing side of an arguement uses.

Axelay
Minmatar
DreamSmiths
Posted - 2003.07.04 04:58:00 - [3]
 

Trolling is prohibited.
"Trolling" is the phrase used to describe a post which is deliberately designed for the sole purpose of angering and insulting the members of the forum community. Posts of this nature are disruptive and do not convey a friendly attitude.

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Edited by: Axelay on 04/07/2003 07:44:32

Vacuole
Gallente
Knights of Shadows
Posted - 2003.07.04 05:04:00 - [4]
 

The occasional hit from a cruiser or BS on a frigate should be devistating, but very rare up close, IMHO.

In the real world, real battleships have massive turrets that take several minutes to align properly.. they are only suitable for hitting relatively stationary objects, like land objects or other ships.. They are useless on aircraft (Eve frigates?) or even small, very nimble gunships. Meanwhile, the gunships rip them up with small arms, like 50mm gatling, etc. but it takes them forever.. lots of time.. more time that passes, more odds that the BS will actually land that single devestating hit. Remember that BS ordinance is about the SIZE of an entire frigate. ;)

Massive turrets aren't agile enough to track a frigate, so the best they can hope for is the long range hit.

Up close, its time to get out the privates and their handguns or whatever.. something that can be quickly aimed.

For laughs, I fitted a large ion blaster on my ship tonight and .. holy ****.. up close, it dealt some serious damage.




Edited by: Vacuole on 04/07/2003 05:08:22

Desoto
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.04 05:05:00 - [5]
 

the A1 mod to the M1 Abrams tank mounts a 120mm turret, btw =)

Drefsab
Caldari
Apex Consortium
Posted - 2003.07.04 05:07:00 - [6]
 

Removed, moderation actions are not to be discussed on these forums - Wrangler

spankyster
Posted - 2003.07.04 05:13:00 - [7]
 

food for thought
that ak-47 fired inside the tank kills everyone but the driver ask any tanker they fear the little guy or the apc with a tow launcher on top of it

point 2 better check your ww2 history as there are many instances where cruisers and even battleships were set upon by frigates and destroyers
and guess what
the big ship went to the bottom
wanna know why
those big bad guns could not track fast enough to hit the little buggers but all along the big ship is getting hammered and finally they get in close and let fly with torpedo's boom thanks for coming out

"Lets take the best frigate best gear whats that cost 10 million for 20 suped up frigs. Hmm against a 100 million isk battleship they should stand no chance period."

battle starts
20 frigates launch 20 torpedoes
battleship nails ones frigate and kills it
frigates close range and lose 2 more
frigate warp scramble battleship
battleship kills 2 more frigates
frigates fire 15 more torpedo's
battleship blows up

check out the composition of a battlegroup
the battleship sits in the middle and is protected by about 14 other ships specifically designed to deal with "little speed boats"
I guess what this means is if your driving a battleship better get some escorts to help protect you or get a crap load of drones

interesting post
your facts need checking tho
and not meant as a flame just pointing out that battleship alone and by itself is dead if a wolfpack comes after it

Edited by: spankyster on 04/07/2003 05:19:57

Vacuole
Gallente
Knights of Shadows
Posted - 2003.07.04 05:19:00 - [8]
 

Umm, spanky

Thanks for helping me make my point. ;)

1. Frigates *can* kill battleships, given enought time and numbers.

2. battleships will kill a frigate in 1 or 2 shots up close, but those would be RARE instances.

3. Large Bship turrets shouldn't be able to track fast enough to make frigate killing up close feasible.

Desoto
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.04 05:22:00 - [9]
 

Gotta concur with Spanky on this one...

Battleships in RL (when they were still used in combat), NEVER travelled alone, but in large task forces with cruiser/destroyer escorts. Why? Because that small little insignificant frigate moving so fast that the huge 12'-16' battleship turrets could not track it would blast it to pieces with torpedoes. On the battlefield, everything has a place, even the frigates...

XeQtR
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.07.04 05:24:00 - [10]
 

You're basicly shooting bantams at ppl??
Hm. I did a quick check on the punisher and allthough it's possibly bigger than a bantam I'd still say that considering that a punisher is about 50 meters long, a bantam is quite possibly larger than the largest projectile you can shoot. (1400mm is it? That would be 1.4 meters for the ones not used to the metric system.
I'm not saying a frigate SHOULD stand any chance against a battleship, but I'm also pretty certain it doesn't. On the other hand. A Cruiser orbiting your Battleship at close range and hi speed should at least have a chance to do some damage to you if you haven't equipped your ship correctly.
As in your analogy to real life naval units. Do you think the battleships from ww2 would shoot at those small gunboats with their 50cm cannons or do you think they had some smaller weapons as well? Suitable for smaller targets.

Drefsab
Caldari
Apex Consortium
Posted - 2003.07.04 05:28:00 - [11]
 

So try and have at least one fast tracking close range weapon to slap any frigates that get cheaky :P

Psylocke
Posted - 2003.07.04 05:30:00 - [12]
 

History Channel, 2 days. You'll learn.

Vacuole
Gallente
Knights of Shadows
Posted - 2003.07.04 05:32:00 - [13]
 

Well, in real life, Battlships (like during WW2) had much more than "8 turret points" to deal with all sorts of threats.. Heck, GI's with their handguns were a factor! :)

So, a perfect analogy is not possible; EVE is too limited.

But the main point is that turret tracking is now very significant and it should be. Huge, heavy battleship turrets shouldn't be able to accurately track tiny fly-like frigates wizzing by.

However, very rarely, a small-car sized battleship ordinance (a piece of ammo) might actually hit a frigate, and it would be curtains for that frigate. :)


Edited by: Vacuole on 04/07/2003 05:32:49

MoonDragn
Caldari
J0urneys End
Posted - 2003.07.04 05:37:00 - [14]
 

I agree, Eve is too limited. I never understood why ships only had a limited amount of slots for high, med and low. Its already limited by amount of cpu and power grid.

spankyster
Posted - 2003.07.04 05:40:00 - [15]
 

one thing that often confuses people is that battleships will use their main guns against small ships
they will fire into the water as close to them as possible and hope the splash damage or shockwave tears them apart.
unfortunatly we are in space and its real hard to get splash damage out here
unless they start making shells with proximity fuses we are back at square one

Desoto
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.04 05:48:00 - [16]
 

The technique was called 'bracketing'. The BS would concentrate its fire inside a square around a faster-moving target, so that the rounds that didn't hit would cause fragmentaion damage. Wonder how that tactic would translate to a 3-dimentional battlefield. Could call it 'cubing' lol

Wind
Caldari
Chaos Knights
Posted - 2003.07.04 06:01:00 - [17]
 

A person in a BS would have to be dumb to get trapped by 20 frigates. the event seems too fake, I never see more than 5 frigates parked anyware unless your at a station even than I dont think that BS is alone in the system.

just think. mom's children may be close by :P

Pudee
Posted - 2003.07.04 06:25:00 - [18]
 

At last the game is turning in to what was promised with each ship having a different role in a battle.

The game has suddenly become more tactical than get the biggest ship in the game and own everyone in a smaller ship, I think this is a positive change and is well within CCP's origional vision.

Ruulex DeMors
Caldari
HYDR4
Posted - 2003.07.04 06:39:00 - [19]
 

Heck, equip that BS size smartbomb and go to town. Honestly...there are weapons to counter every possible attack. Get with you Corp-mates and figure out the best overall set up. If all you guns are 1400mm Artillery than you're in for a rude awakening when the frigates destroy you 20 pts at a time. Maybe keep two Heavy Blasters for those up close and personal attacks.

For the ppl that are equipped for pure damage, they have to change their set-up now. BS's have many slots, don't just slap 'em all with lateral stablizers (or what-ever your damage mod of choice). Not making fun of ppl here, just throwing out suggestions to BS's that are scared of the zerging frigates ;-)

Edited by: Ruulex DeMors on 04/07/2003 06:40:51

Bambooza
CORE Technologies Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.04 06:44:00 - [20]
 

I would say a battleship on its own stands a better chance of surviving most encounters but to say that a battleship should be the king of the hill and untouchable by anything below it in less they are in large numbers removes any sort of battlefield tactics as well as promote a single direction tread mill to buying the biggest ship available. Having read through all the post I would agree with those who have posted before me as what they have said is a realistic approach and one that promotes multiple variables much as a game of chess has multiple moves. Battleships equipped only with large weapons would have a hell of a time tracking and hitting a fast moving frigate or cruiser moving in angles less then 45 to the battleship. Equip that same battleship with some medium and small turrets and it can spend all day eating frigates for breakfast. Now that battleship becomes vulnerable to other battleships and cruisers.
But the question is why would a battleship be alone? Cruisers being far more versatile make better solo ships and are far easier to replace when lost.

Zeknichov
Life. Universe. Everything.
Posted - 2003.07.04 06:57:00 - [21]
 

Okay why does everyone think battleships should be the only way to fight. If a battleship could take out 20 frigates then in time no one will use frigates anymore. Everyship needs an advantage. IMO Cruisers should be the main versitile fighter class of ship while battleships should be more for space station assassults (if that ever happens) frigates should be a quick hit and run attack force. Like someone stated above we shoot for real realism well your battleship can't aim very well at a fast moving speed boat.

DarkRift
Posted - 2003.07.04 07:21:00 - [22]
 

Quote:
I agree, Eve is too limited. I never understood why ships only had a limited amount of slots for high, med and low. Its already limited by amount of cpu and power grid.

Because the benefits are rarely linear when compared to fitting requirements. Multiple smaller modules are typically better than a single large module given the same fitting requirements. Having limited slots promotes the use of the single large module on ships that can carry it just to save space.

Quote:
battleships will use their main guns against small ships
they will fire into the water as close to them as possible and hope the splash damage or shockwave tears them apart.

Very true, a 5 inch gun can land 5 rounds at the same time in one area. However, this requires ballistic trajectories which you don't have in space (at small distances/low gravity). The gun has very little chance of hitting the boat directly. Proximity rounds (flak) would be an interesting addition.

A frigate that gets inside your main guns should pick you apart slowly. That's why high tracking/short range guns/smartbombs exist. Real ships use smaller cannons and Phalanx systems to shoot fast moving targets, so should you.

Battleships no longer exist in the navy due to the advent of the aircraft carrier. They can deliver accurate fire far beyond the range of a battleship's main guns (which had no chance of downing one of the planes at any range, that's what the smaller cannons were for).

Muppet
Posted - 2003.07.04 07:40:00 - [23]
 

well lets shoot for total realism. Basically your Frigate is like a speed boat with a 50mm mounted gun. And your attacking my Destroyer class ship in the naval fleet.

Well, destroyers were first built to protect cruisers and battleships from MTBs, so Eve is not that unrealistic

Torval Sontu
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2003.07.04 07:45:00 - [24]
 

I was eating frigates alive after the changes even with the nerfed tracking my heavy mods were two shotting them like normal :).

*cough* used to be one shot always but since I only use one dmg mod if they are lucky its 2 :).

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.04 07:49:00 - [25]
 

<< I was eating frigates alive after the changes even with the nerfed tracking my heavy mods were two shotting them like normal :).

*cough* used to be one shot always but since I only use one dmg mod if they are lucky its 2 :). >>

With what class weapons?

Solomani il Xafra
Posted - 2003.07.04 08:14:00 - [26]
 

If you want to be "realistic" and compare it to "real life" there are NO MORE BATTLESHIPS.

The USN has none and niether do any of the other world powers.

If you are shooting a volkswagon at a fast moving small target at 30 clicks away then you probably should miss - alot. If they get close enuf where they can hurt you they should be vapourised by your BS gun - but, so would you from the splash damage!

The only "real life" uber keel all weapon is the laser as it CAN NOT BE DODGED at anything less then 1 light year. You shoot it, it instantly hits your target.

THATS realistic. But, do you really want that? In real life frigates are used (along with destroyers) to escort and protect carrier vehicles.

ABNTanker
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.04 08:23:00 - [27]
 

food for thought
that ak-47 fired inside the tank kills everyone but the driver ask any tanker they fear the little guy or the apc with a tow launcher on top of it.


First, I was a tanker and an infantryman with an assualt rifle was the least of my fears. Fast movers,(aircraft) is what made me freeze in hopes of not being spotted. Second, ground warfare is the worst area for making comparisons to EVE combat. Stick to naval units is my advice.

Axelay
Minmatar
DreamSmiths
Posted - 2003.07.04 09:06:00 - [28]
 

Thats not a good comparison because if you related it to naval units then this game would be ALL phuqued up.

Oh, wait, it is....


Sure maybe a Dreadnaught Battleship wouldn't be able to hit a guy in a raft with it's main guns.

But then, anything that the guy in the raft could mount would simply bounce off ot the Battleship without even scratching it.

And I bet they would be able to find something on the ship to shoot at the guy in the raft which wouln't have much trouble at all hitting.

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.07.04 09:10:00 - [29]
 

I was under the impression that Destroyer class ships mounted not only large weaponry, but AA-guns and smaller turrets as well.

Is this still the case in naval warfare?

MoonDragn
Caldari
J0urneys End
Posted - 2003.07.04 09:11:00 - [30]
 

I dunno what the fuss is about. I am still using my long range heavy guns and these frigates still last about as long as they did before the patch.


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