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Draconyx
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:28:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Draconyx on 30/08/2011 13:37:00

After reading some posts I am starting to wonder.

Awhile back CCP increased the the HP's on some ships increase the battle times.
However there is still a lot of insta-kills going on at the gates.

I am not arguing the single ship against 10 ships camping, you are going to die.
But when surviving a gate camp depends on how fast you can press a key then things have gone a bit too far.

I have played lots of twitch games and people use lag to create their one shot deaths.
I would hate to see EVE get stuck in this garbage of people purposely inducing lag to kill someone.

This isn't people at 20 paces, these are ships and they should survive more then a 1 ms against another ship.

PS - don't ever hit return after inputting the Subject line Embarassed

SupaKudoRio
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:30:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: SupaKudoRio on 30/08/2011 13:31:52
That was an amazing read. Shocked


In particular:
Originally by: Draconyx


Was extremely well put.


OT: You kind-of need both. Excessive amounts of either makes up for a limited part of the other, but cannot stand alone.

Dorian Tormak
M0N0LITH
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:33:00 - [3]
 

Yeah ^^ I've always seen as both of these things.

Probably more strategy though.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:36:00 - [4]
 

given that this game HAS NO twitch response, Id say strategy.

When they (lol) put in joystick controls where we can fly our own ships then ppl can talk about twitch

0/10

well 5/10 cause I was bored enough to respond lol

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:37:00 - [5]
 

One time, I swear a miner was using an aimbot.
Those asteroids... they didn't stand a chance.

Forum Worrier
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:40:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Forum Worrier on 30/08/2011 13:41:48
Lots of twitch in eve. I'm a twitch god.

Every shot I fire hits, almost like it was auto-aim.

Eve has no twitch (cs,quake), lots of micro (starcraft,dota).

Ghoest
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:49:00 - [7]
 

EVE isnt and has never been about twitch.

But the game has always been about rapidly implementing a sequence in response to your opponents actions.

Draconyx
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:57:00 - [8]
 

Okay what I am talking about is another thread where people were complaining about there insta-lock ships not being able to take out a frigate before it warps.

People went as far as complaining about the order on which messages are sent to the server.
When you are complaining about that, you are talking twitch as you are complaining about ms.
And that means lag can and will play a factor.

Draconyx
Posted - 2011.08.30 14:24:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Draconyx on 30/08/2011 14:26:57
And sense I am talking to myself it makes me wonder if .....

Well unfortunately the item I have in mind nobody will like cause everyone depends on them.
And because of that maybe they really do need a nerf.

Senser Boosters should either probably get a stacking penalty (if it has one it needs to be adjusted)
or a flat out nerf.

You should not be able to reduce the locking time of any sub capital to that of a frigate.
Frigates are for quick lock and tackle but have low HP's so if you kill them before the heavy guns lock and fire you might get away.
But in reality that doesn't exist in EVE but it should.

Maybe senser boosters should be modified to there original intent.
Lose the lock time bonus and leave the rest.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.30 14:27:00 - [10]
 

I think you are confusing twitch based gaming with meta gaming. Twitch based gaming has input variables while turn based gaming has input constants.

You can choose WHEN to fire your weapons in EVE, but the server does the rest of the math for you.

You can choose WHEN to fire your weapons in FPS, but if you anticipate your opponents rate of travel correctly, and the lag between firing and server response, and the rate of travel for whatever type of round you fired, you can successfully hit your opponent. Collision detection itself is the math the server uses to determine impact damage, but you do a lot of the work yourself, i.e. twitch.

I do not have to decide how far ahead of my moving opponent to fire or how likely they are to change courses after I fire before firing my rocket launcher in EVE, I only have to decide if their range, direction, and rate of travel is ideal for me to maximize the damage potential of the rocket when it impacts.

Draconyx
Posted - 2011.08.30 14:47:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Draconyx on 30/08/2011 14:52:46
Then again it really all comes down to lock times and warp times.
I think I started with the wrong subject.

Problem is if you increase lock times which would be great.
Nothing is drives you more insane then showing up at a heated battle and waiting on a lock.

So re-balance the lock times on everything except the frigate classes.
Frigate fast lock, everything else slower.

Then you are back to the senser booster changing the balance of everything.

So really you want to lose the lock time bonus or nerf them with a heavy stacking penalty.
Increase the lock time on the bigger ships to a limit.
Capitals are already crazy long lock times.

Adding hit points to sub capitals might be looked at as well.
Sorry but longer battles makes for more interesting game play.





Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.30 14:55:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Draconyx

Adding hit points to sub capitals might be looked at as well.



They have already done that once, they are not going to do it again.

Originally by: Draconyx

Sorry but longer battles makes for more interesting game play.



In my EVE, battles last as long as the variable factors cause them to last, be it mere seconds, or hours.
What gives you the impression CCP can just swing a gavel and makes battles last exactly long as you desire them to?

Draconyx
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:17:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Draconyx on 30/08/2011 15:22:49
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Draconyx

Adding hit points to sub capitals might be looked at as well.



They have already done that once, they are not going to do it again.

Might being the key word there and as you said it they did it before and it did little to nothing.

Originally by: Draconyx

Sorry but longer battles makes for more interesting game play.



In my EVE, battles last as long as the variable factors cause them to last, be it mere seconds, or hours.
What gives you the impression CCP can just swing a gavel and makes battles last exactly long as you desire them to?


Hour long engagements haven't seen that yet on a sub capital size, that would be rather long.
The problem is the 99 % of sub capital engagements can be measured in seconds.

Now if CCP
Hand me a joystick where I can control fly my ship and aim my guns then I will be happy with a a few minutes for an engagement cause I am doing something.

However a few seconds where everything is controlled for me and all I have to do is hit a few buttons before the other person. Boring.
To be honest if I fly anything on my other character it will be in a frigate class ship as everything else completely boring and not worth it.
Talk about years of training just to go back to where I started.





Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:20:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Draconyx

Hour long engagements haven't seen that yet on a sub capital size, that would be rather long.
The problem is the 99 % of sub capital engagements can be measured in seconds.

Now if CCP
Hand me a joystick where I can control fly my ship and aim my guns then I will be happy with a a few minutes for an engagement cause I am doing something.

However a few seconds where everything is controlled for me and all I have to do is hit a few buttons before the other person. Boring.







http://www.blackprophecy.com/ >>>

Seriously, you'll find what you want there, but you will never find it here.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:20:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Draconyx


Hour long engagements haven't seen that yet on a sub capital size, that would be rather long.
The problem is the 99 % of sub capital engagements can be measured in seconds.

Now if CCP
Hand me a joystick where I can control fly my ship and aim my guns then I will be happy with a a few minutes for an engagement cause I am doing something.

However a few seconds where everything is controlled for me and all I have to do is hit a few buttons before the other person. Boring.






You just proved why EVE ISNT twitch

Jack Traynor
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:28:00 - [16]
 

"than", not "then". Grammar ftw.

Draconyx
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:32:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Draconyx


Hour long engagements haven't seen that yet on a sub capital size, that would be rather long.
The problem is the 99 % of sub capital engagements can be measured in seconds.

Now if CCP
Hand me a joystick where I can control fly my ship and aim my guns then I will be happy with a a few minutes for an engagement cause I am doing something.

However a few seconds where everything is controlled for me and all I have to do is hit a few buttons before the other person. Boring.






You just proved why EVE ISNT twitch


Actually I just proved why EVE is not a FPS not why it is not Twitch, they are not synonymous.
FPS's have a lot more things going on then just twitch.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:36:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Draconyx

Actually I just proved why EVE is not a FPS not why it is not Twitch, they are not synonymous.
FPS's have a lot more things going on then just twitch.



I think what he was trying to say is EVE has few if any truly twitch based archetypes and hasn't for nearly a decade, so the thread is clearly going somewhere.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:40:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 30/08/2011 15:46:23
I love that Eve has little twitch,

For guys with good twitch skills it may feel like none,

For slower twitch people, the abilty to see where you are in a bubble, manually point your ship outwards, while still choosing targets, within range, and hitting vairous buttons, perhap's ewar on one ship and guns on another.. perhaps feathering the mwd cycle to get to escape position or to get within web or scramble range of a target other than the primary

... that takes a speed or reaction that I would call "twitch" but I can see someone perhaps have a better word for it.

I'm terribly slow at data entry... someone fast can enter data off paper forms into a spread sheet or something at well over 3 times my rate..(not only am I slow at seeing the name and begining to enter it, I need to correct the typing on 1/2 the words (i just typed entr and had to correct it ton enter... my left fingers react slower than my right fingers I beleieve.) Is that fast twitch? it is about dexterity with a keyboard.

I do not believe that EVE has changed to require more keyboard dexterity over the 2 1/2 years that I played. The control click change hurt somewhat as did the wonkyness of the control button freezing the overview. Session changes seem to have gotten a bit better allowing more time to react at least to the first target...the pod war

Ghoest
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:43:00 - [20]
 

Knowing a sequence of buttons to run through immediately in response to a given action by the opponent is not "twitch."
Being able to push the buttons quickly does matter but that in itself is not "twitch."

EVE skill is primarily about instantly understanding the proper response to a given action in a given set of circumstances.

Twitch games are primarily about being able to use hand eye coordination in response to seeing something.

In addition tactics matter in both type games and thats totally separate from the "twitch" issue.

Bane Necran
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:43:00 - [21]
 

Am i the only one who hates the term twitch?

I think the term people are looking for is reflexes, or hand eye coordination. Twitch makes it sound like success is based on some kind of involuntary spasm.

Draconyx
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:43:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Mendolus


http://www.blackprophecy.com/ >>>

Seriously, you'll find what you want there, but you will never find it here.


No thanks the next FPS for me will be Mechwarrior 5.
I don't play EVE because I wanted to play a FPS.
The whole point of the post to begin with.
EVE just seems to be picking up some aspects of an FPS.
Which funny enough is actually making the PvP rather boring.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:43:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 15:47:18
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 15:45:15
Originally by: Mendolus




http://www.blackprophecy.com/ >>>

Seriously, you'll find what you want there, but you will never find it here.


hey wait that looks like internet spaceships... I thought EVE didnt HAVE competition O.o

Originally by: Draconyx
Originally by: Mendolus


http://www.blackprophecy.com/ >>>

Seriously, you'll find what you want there, but you will never find it here.


No thanks the next FPS for me will be Mechwarrior 5.
I don't play EVE because I wanted to play a FPS.
The whole point of the post to begin with.
EVE just seems to be picking up some aspects of an FPS.
Which funny enough is actually making the PvP rather boring.



hm... fps... that word doesnt mean what you think it does... none of the MW games have been FPS...
They are simulation.
and EVE has ZERO FPS elements lol
dude... this has to be a troll

an wasnt there a lawsuit over MW5?

Draconyx
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:48:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Knowing a sequence of buttons to run through immediately in response to a given action by the opponent is not "twitch."
Being able to push the buttons quickly does matter but that in itself is not "twitch."

EVE skill is primarily about instantly understanding the proper response to a given action in a given set of circumstances.

Twitch games are primarily about being able to use hand eye coordination in response to seeing something.

In addition tactics matter in both type games and thats totally separate from the "twitch" issue.


Sitting on gate
Wait for decloak.
Twitch mouse to ship on overview while holding CNTL key.
2 seconds later ship is dead.
Twitch, to the point where people where complaining on another thread that CCP change the sequence of calls to the server and they couldn't get a lock on a frigate.

IF that isn't twitch nothing is.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:57:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 16:00:51
Originally by: Draconyx


Sitting on gate
Wait for decloak.
Twitch mouse to ship on overview while holding CNTL key.
2 seconds later ship is dead.
Twitch, to the point where people where complaining on another thread that CCP change the sequence of calls to the server and they couldn't get a lock on a frigate.

IF that isn't twitch nothing is.



Then nothing is cause youre using the term wrong
Cause it thats twitch, Windows is the most twichiest program ever. Im "twitching" my mouse all over to open stuff. All day long

Quote:
Twitch gameplay is a type of video gameplay scenario that tests a player's reaction time. Action games such as first-person shooters often contain elements of twitch gameplay. For example, Quake III Arena often requires players' fast reactions to shoot enemies. However, other genres can involve twitch gameplay as well. For example, Tetris is a puzzle video game that gradually speeds up as the player makes progress. Twitch gameplay keeps players actively engaged with quick feedback to their actions, as opposed to turn-based gaming that involves waiting for the outcome of a chosen course of action. Twitch can be used to expand tactical options and play, test skill in various areas (usually reflexive responses) and generally add difficulty (relating to the intensity of "twitching" required).Traditionally however the Term "Twitch game" was applied to simple computer, arcade, and console games that lacked the element of strategy and was based solely on a players reaction time.Early first person shooters were very much like early games in general, fast reactions were required and little skill or thought went into the play. Even the youngest players understood the concept. See the enemy, shoot at the enemy, try not to die. That said many of the earliest First person games were cookie cutter copies of each other. Doom, Wolfenstein 3D, and many other looked, played, and felt the same. Enemy AI was predictable and levels were single mazes with secrets and side rooms. While these games included the ability to look up and down it was rarely required of the player. It was all simply, run, click, win.



Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:57:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Bane Necran
Am i the only one who hates the term twitch?

I think the term people are looking for is reflexes, or hand eye coordination. Twitch makes it sound like success is based on some kind of involuntary spasm.


Eye hand coordination is probably more accurate, although given that the keystroke move is far more forgiving than the movement of the wrist in a tennis or golf swing where "eye hand coordination" is often implied, a different word seems appropiate.

Twitch, means a bit more than reaction speed... but maybe it doesn't to some people... a broader term is needed for the abilty to quickly turn mental decisions to take certain actions (redirect ship, target targets 1 and two by finding and clicking them on overview without delaying the manual directing of ship, apply one mod to one ship and another mod to another.)

.... I can quickly make the decision what to do , but getting the actions done with my mouse and keyboard is another thing... eye hand coordination is probably more related than reaction speed because my mind does react quickly enough.

The term twitch does seem to connect the speed a mental decision turns into a physical reaction... while eye hand coordination can apply to things that don't require speed reactions but finesse like making a free throw penalty shot in basketball or a golf tee shot.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:59:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Draconyx
Originally by: Ghoest
Knowing a sequence of buttons to run through immediately in response to a given action by the opponent is not "twitch."
Being able to push the buttons quickly does matter but that in itself is not "twitch."

EVE skill is primarily about instantly understanding the proper response to a given action in a given set of circumstances.

Twitch games are primarily about being able to use hand eye coordination in response to seeing something.

In addition tactics matter in both type games and thats totally separate from the "twitch" issue.


Sitting on gate
Wait for decloak.
Twitch mouse to ship on overview while holding CNTL key.
2 seconds later ship is dead.
Twitch, to the point where people where complaining on another thread that CCP change the sequence of calls to the server and they couldn't get a lock on a frigate.

IF that isn't twitch nothing is.



Everything in life requires you react to input you receive through your senses which you then take action on, calling that twitch is absurd.

Twitch is a very specific type of gaming, think of it like balancing a spinning plate on a stick with a control pad or the deliberate continuous rotation or movement of your mouse that interacts with the game environment for every drag event, EVE has nothing like that, nor will it ever. Nothing YOU do in EVE is continuous, your module may continuously cycle, but you are only able to activate or deactivate it at a single point in time, every action you take is a discrete and occupies that single point in time. It is impossible to have twitch based on discrete events, end of story. Go home troll.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.30 16:02:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 16:04:38
Originally by: Mendolus
Go home troll.


Or at least google twitch based gameplay and become less stupid

Draconyx
Posted - 2011.08.30 16:08:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Draconyx
Originally by: Ghoest
Knowing a sequence of buttons to run through immediately in response to a given action by the opponent is not "twitch."
Being able to push the buttons quickly does matter but that in itself is not "twitch."

EVE skill is primarily about instantly understanding the proper response to a given action in a given set of circumstances.

Twitch games are primarily about being able to use hand eye coordination in response to seeing something.

In addition tactics matter in both type games and thats totally separate from the "twitch" issue.


Sitting on gate
Wait for decloak.
Twitch mouse to ship on overview while holding CNTL key.
2 seconds later ship is dead.
Twitch, to the point where people where complaining on another thread that CCP change the sequence of calls to the server and they couldn't get a lock on a frigate.

IF that isn't twitch nothing is.



Everything in life requires you react to input you receive through your senses which you then take action on, calling that twitch is absurd.

Twitch is a very specific type of gaming, think of it like balancing a spinning plate on a stick with a control pad or the deliberate continuous rotation or movement of your mouse that interacts with the game environment for every drag event, EVE has nothing like that, nor will it ever. Nothing YOU do in EVE is continuous, your module may continuously cycle, but you are only able to activate or deactivate it at a single point in time, every action you take is a discrete and occupies that single point in time. It is impossible to have twitch based on discrete events, end of story. Go home troll.


Not a troll at all, when people start complaining about milliseconds on a gate and targeting frigates with there insta-lock cruisers there is a problem.

IF you don't think that is a problem you could have stated so from the beginning instead of arguing about a word and not talking about the subject, so who is trolling who here ?




Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.30 16:12:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 30/08/2011 16:04:38
Originally by: Mendolus
Go home troll.


Or at least google twitch based gameplay and become less stupid


Yep, thankfully someone posted a good description of twitch gaming above.


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