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Noguchi Raijin
Motorbreath Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.28 19:29:00 - [1]
 

I haven't played Eve, other than my skill queue and the very occasional mission, for about 8 month's. I want to, I just can't get excited about logging in with the current state of pvp. Ganking is all fine and good, but it's not the kind of pvp that I find interesting or satisfying. I am very much the small gang, goodfights type pvper.

There are several threads going with specific changes to help improve our game, so I'll throw out mine.

Killmails and Killboards are great. They show dominance over your enemys, are a record of your time in Eve, and are just generally fun as hell to collect. But, in my opinion, they're also the single biggest reason pvp is in the state that it is. In lowsec at least, null it may not have as much bearing.

I'd gladly give up killmails in exchange for solo pvp viability, and small gang goodfights en masse. Not that this alone would do that, but I think it would be a big first step.

Just a thought from someone who wants to play eve again.

The Offerer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.28 19:31:00 - [2]
 

No one forces you to use or look at killboards.

Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2011.08.28 19:33:00 - [3]
 

Eve has consequences, a permanent combat record is one of them.

Justified Cause
Posted - 2011.08.28 19:34:00 - [4]
 

Hey, Hey, lets do some really cool! Lets remove the only record that pvpers have of actually getting kills! ******, go back to WoW

Waipahu
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2011.08.28 19:35:00 - [5]
 

Neither response has anything to do with the OP

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.28 19:51:00 - [6]
 

Killmails have nothing to do with bringing overwhelmingly superior forces. Even without killmails, people will still attempt to get the maximum amount of "secured" dominance.

Basileus Volkan
Posted - 2011.08.28 19:56:00 - [7]
 

Man I thought this was about removing the metric system and I was like "Uuuuh dumb Americans".

baltec1
Posted - 2011.08.28 19:56:00 - [8]
 

How else would you prove that an Iteron V managed to kill a rokh?

Noguchi Raijin
Motorbreath Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.28 20:08:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: baltec1
How else would you prove that an Iteron V managed to kill a rokh?


There are many years worth of quality comedy mails, and it would suck to see them go. But I'd still rather have quality pvp back in my Eve.

Queue K'Umber
Posted - 2011.08.28 20:11:00 - [10]
 

Killmails aren't really what's primarily wrong with PVP in my experience.

You may be right but I think that the thing that would "fix" the PVP is to disincentivize douchebaggery.
To explain a theory of how do so would be an even bigger and more boring wall of text.

Yes, removing killmails may help but we had good PVP along with killmails in the past.

The problem is cultural.

PVP got a lot better for me once I stopped playing "Killboard Stats Online" and letting others measure my success. It's like I could perform again and did not need little blue pills to have a good time.
I kill more. I die less than I kill now.

Low sec in general is a lot of fun but you've got to work to get kills.
That means getting enough numbers and in the right ship types to get fights and win them.

A certain member of Caldari FW once remarked to me (a less cowardly alt) that he and his corp needed to fly odd types of T1 cruisers in order to get fights. Maller and Thorax hulls with the odd Moa thrown in as I recall. One Vexor or Rupture and people would run.
They hustled for kills and got them.

I have three suggestions to get your PVP on in a time efficient manner.
RvB
FW
Tuskers if they're still recruiting.

Possibly Agony Unleashed if you're squeaky clean and can tolerate their culture.


FAKE EDIT:
You've talked me in to it. I'm putting my other cowardly alt back into FW.



Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2011.08.28 20:15:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Noguchi Raijin
But, in my opinion, they're also the single biggest reason pvp is in the state that it is.


This just shows that you "don't get" Eve.

at all!

Sandviched
Posted - 2011.08.28 20:21:00 - [12]
 

I think a better way would be for ccp to remove the ability for users to post km's and ccp put up their own basic killboard will minimal stats.

no kill to death ratio's, no effciantcy %, no loss value's in isk or other real world currency.

and no actually count of how many ships people have killed and no points system.
just a log of the kills and nothing else.

Noguchi Raijin
Motorbreath Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.28 20:23:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Lykouleon
Killmails have nothing to do with bringing overwhelmingly superior forces. Even without killmails, people will still attempt to get the maximum amount of "secured" dominance.


Yep it will still happen. But I disagree that killmails have nothing to do with it. Individual, corp and alliance k/d ratios are serious business.

Originally by: Basileus Volkan
Man I thought this was about removing the metric system and I was like "Uuuuh dumb Americans".


I'd also gladly give up the "standard" system =)

baltec1
Posted - 2011.08.28 20:28:00 - [14]
 

Personally I find the biggest issue I have in pvp these days are supercaps. Be it in a fleet, small roaming gang or going solo in my bomber I will get a Nyx dumped on me.

Noguchi Raijin
Motorbreath Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.28 20:38:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Personally I find the biggest issue I have in pvp these days are supercaps. Be it in a fleet, small roaming gang or going solo in my bomber I will get a Nyx dumped on me.


This made me laugh. This is a problem also, killmails are just my thought on some solutions. As one poster suggested with the removal of local in null sec, give it a test run for awhile and see how things go.

Myfanwy Heimdal
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.28 20:39:00 - [16]
 

I was hoping that this would be a suggestion that we move over to furlongs rather than use kilometres.

Kill mails? I find that they are lacking in one aspect; that it gives no details of what has killed your ship. Who? Yes. But not what.

So, on that score I would like more extensive kill mail information. And, furlongs.

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2011.08.28 20:55:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Noguchi Raijin
I haven't played Eve, other than my skill queue and the very occasional mission, for about 8 month's. I want to, I just can't get excited about logging in with the current state of pvp. Ganking is all fine and good, but it's not the kind of pvp that I find interesting or satisfying. I am very much the small gang, goodfights type pvper.

There are several threads going with specific changes to help improve our game, so I'll throw out mine.

Killmails and Killboards are great. They show dominance over your enemys, are a record of your time in Eve, and are just generally fun as hell to collect. But, in my opinion, they're also the single biggest reason pvp is in the state that it is. In lowsec at least, null it may not have as much bearing.

I'd gladly give up killmails in exchange for solo pvp viability, and small gang goodfights en masse. Not that this alone would do that, but I think it would be a big first step.

Just a thought from someone who wants to play eve again.


good fights are exact type of pvp which should never exist in eve

i won't mind getting into exciting fights but purpose of pvp should not be just pvp for sake
of pvp. it should be for isk, personal e-honor or for the good of corp/alliance.

that being said killboards shouldn't have anything to do with it. even without killboard stats you can pretty soon figure out that you are not doing so good when your wallet gets empty. or at least that way it should be. sadly it rarely is because now people grind isk and go have these so called "good fights" then complain about killboards when they mindlessly lose 100 ships a day for sake of good fights.


Rath Kelbore
Kings of Kill
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2011.08.28 21:03:00 - [18]
 

I don't think removing kill mails would change much. The type of person that doesn't get into a fight they might lose because it will "look bad" on their kill board isn't going to get into fights with a chance of loss anyways.

For whatever reason, most people are risk adverse and will avoid a fight they might not win if at all possible.

OTOH, you can get good fights all over, just plan on being out numbered and probably dying a fair amount. That doesn't mean you can't win though.

Umad Bro Questionmark
Posted - 2011.08.28 21:05:00 - [19]
 

I didn't read anything but the title but

BAD IDEA IS BAD

Bye.

Hicksimus
Gallente
Mom's Friendly Spaceship Company
Posted - 2011.08.28 21:07:00 - [20]
 

You must be looking in all of the wrong places then because my entire killboard are small gang pvp kills and losses and there are several excellent places to experience small gang pvp.

The solution to you not knowing how to pick a fight is not the removal of my trophy wall, it's using your brain, like you should have done before you made this stupid suggestion.

ITT: Attack of the carebears!

The Offerer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.28 21:14:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Noguchi Raijin
Originally by: Lykouleon
Killmails have nothing to do with bringing overwhelmingly superior forces. Even without killmails, people will still attempt to get the maximum amount of "secured" dominance.


Yep it will still happen. But I disagree that killmails have nothing to do with it. Individual, corp and alliance k/d ratios are serious business.



Let's look at the history:
- Did k/d ratio played any role when BoB fell apart?
- Did k/d ratio played any role when Goons were forced out of Delve?
- Did k/d ratio played any role when CVA lost Providence?
- Did k/d ratio played any role when NC lost the North?

K/D ratio is not serious business.

Noguchi Raijin
Motorbreath Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.28 21:33:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Hicksimus
You must be looking in all of the wrong places then because my entire killboard are small gang pvp kills and losses and there are several excellent places to experience small gang pvp.

The solution to you not knowing how to pick a fight is not the removal of my trophy wall, it's using your brain, like you should have done before you made this stupid suggestion.

ITT: Attack of the carebears!


Mind linking your killboard?

Noguchi Raijin
Motorbreath Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.28 21:40:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn
it should be for isk, personal e-honor or for the good of corp/alliance.


All fine reasons to pvp, I'd just also throw in pvp for pvp's sake

Hicksimus
Gallente
Mom's Friendly Spaceship Company
Posted - 2011.08.28 22:53:00 - [24]
 

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=695239&view=kills

Nothing impressive, just constant fun small gang pvp.

Dorian Tormak
M0N0LITH
Posted - 2011.08.28 23:32:00 - [25]
 

Get rid of killmails? Sure.

Killmails are stupid.

Killmails are dumb.

Of course I say this because I have a crappy killboard.

I just also think it would,

1. Make people more willing to risk ships, it won't effect their killboard so they won't care so much about their precious stats.

2. Make "big" kills more meaningful; like a Garmon Mach kill... only folk who were there will know for sure if it happened unless it is frapsed.

3. Just a better all-around environment in pvp areas I think, more people will be running around solo shooting eachother.

That's my thought anyway; killmails are bad for pvp. Disagree? Tell me why please :)

Mixne
Posted - 2011.08.29 00:01:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Dorian Tormak
Get rid of killmails? Sure.

Killmails are stupid.

Killmails are dumb.

Of course I say this because I have a crappy killboard.

I just also think it would,

1. Make people more willing to risk ships, it won't effect their killboard so they won't care so much about their precious stats.

2. Make "big" kills more meaningful; like a Garmon Mach kill... only folk who were there will know for sure if it happened unless it is frapsed.

3. Just a better all-around environment in pvp areas I think, more people will be running around solo shooting eachother.

That's my thought anyway; killmails are bad for pvp. Disagree? Tell me why please :)


Kill mails are not bad for PvP, they are simply a summary of the fight. What's bad for the "good fight" mentality of PvP is harsh death penalties and character skill imbalances. "Good fights" are found in FPS games when two roughly equivalently skilled teams of players fight each other. The penalty for death is waiting for a respawn and every character has the same skills available to them.

EVE PvP is designed to favor ganking, number of ships and who has played the game (payed CCP) the longest. Ganking is a form of income and tends to be pretty imbalanced fights, number of ships is blobs and the bigger blob generally wins, and SP imbalance can make a pretty huge difference. Take a month old character and an 8 year old character, toss them both in even a Rifter and the older player is going to deal more damage and take less damage. EVE is not designed to provide a "fair" environment where "good fights" take place. The outcome of most fights is known before the fight even happens, so if the side that will lose can avoid it, they will.

Noguchi Raijin
Motorbreath Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.29 00:02:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Hicksimus
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=695239&view=kills

Nothing impressive, just constant fun small gang pvp.


Just think how much more fun you'd have if every pilot in Eve didn't have to worry about their k/d ratio.

The Offerer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.29 00:19:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Noguchi Raijin
Originally by: Hicksimus
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=695239&view=kills

Nothing impressive, just constant fun small gang pvp.


Just think how much more fun you'd have if every pilot in Eve didn't have to worry about their k/d ratio.


But you already don't have to. Is someone forcing you to even look at killboards?

Hamatitio
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.08.29 00:41:00 - [29]
 

Back before kill mails, people still kept track of what was killed. The current CAOD was generally speaking a place for impromptu battle reports, usually revolving around 3-4 battleship kills being the highlight of a roam.

However even though you know the pilot exploded, there would still be people arguing in the threads about who brought how many ships, who killed what, and what was actually dropped.

I'd rather have killmails than deal with that again.

Hicksimus
Gallente
Mom's Friendly Spaceship Company
Posted - 2011.08.29 00:44:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Noguchi Raijin


Just think how much more fun you'd have if every pilot in Eve didn't have to worry about their k/d ratio.


I thought most people worried about their supply of isk tbh. Also half of the fun is making them lose whatever they care about like the isk or the ratio. When people lose these they say some really crazy stuff.

http://echo.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9347567 just check what this guy said, I copied it into the comments.

And if we didn't have killboards, nobody would know he said that, how would I share the love?


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