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blankseplocked So where are the minutes to the CSM/CCP July Summit?
 
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Lilith Ishanoya
Lai Dai Shipments
Posted - 2011.08.27 19:22:00 - [31]
 

I really doubt CCP/Hilmar's ego can take what the CSM wants to publish, thus they keep "iterating" on it (the only iterating CCP does it seems). Until everyone in the CSM gives in in disgust so that the minutes show exactly what CCP wants them to show. Then they'll be published.

Asmodeus Et'Mort
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2011.08.27 19:31:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Asmodeus Et''Mort on 27/08/2011 19:31:19
I just want to know,

Who on the CSM took minutes of the meeting? please tell me it wasnt a CCP employee only taking those minutes?

Are we getting fulll minutes with redactions only for NDA?

OR ARE WE JUST GETTING A PRECIS OF CCP'S MINUTES APPROVED BY THE CSM?

Im not trolling, Im trying to be reasonable and I feel I have asked pertinent questions, As I said above teh same conditions are there for another "perfect storm" all we need now is a leaked CCP email or Newsletter to start the crazies off again. So Im finding it hard to understand what CCP or the CSM have learned about communication, answers to the abobve questions would go at least some way to reassuring me and others it seems.

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.27 20:40:00 - [33]
 

ITT: People clamoring like babbies for things they feel entitled to when, in fact, they are not. Neutral

Asmodeus Et'Mort
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2011.08.27 21:19:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Lykouleon
ITT: People clamoring like babbies for things they feel entitled to when, in fact, they are not. Neutral


Great I ask some simple questions that should be easy to answer and get trolled by a member of a fail alliance.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.08.27 21:30:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 27/08/2011 21:31:08
Originally by: Lilith Ishanoya
I really doubt CCP/Hilmar's ego can take what the CSM wants to publish, thus they keep "iterating" on it (the only iterating CCP does it seems). Until everyone in the CSM gives in in disgust so that the minutes show exactly what CCP wants them to show. Then they'll be published.


Considering CSM chair The Mittani is fully on the "CCP are just misunderstood y'all be whiners" train (for the low cost of just a few beers) and most of the rest of the CSM have been ghosting, this seems unlikely.

Worst CSM ever.

BuckStrider
Nano-Tech Experiments
Posted - 2011.08.27 22:07:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: White Tree

Wow.


How many 'drafts' did you have to submit before being cleared to post this information?

Asmodeus Et'Mort
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2011.08.27 22:21:00 - [37]
 

Who on the CSM took minutes of the meeting? please tell me it wasnt a CCP employee only taking those minutes?

Are we getting fulll minutes with redactions only for NDA?

OR ARE WE JUST GETTING A PRECIS OF CCP'S MINUTES APPROVED BY THE CSM?

Information Agent
Posted - 2011.08.27 22:36:00 - [38]
 

Since when were any meetings 'minutes' subject to editing? Are they not supposed to be a shorthand version of what is said and discussed, also accurate in regard to questions put forward and relating answers given? Therefore by editting the minutes they would be effectively changing 'what was said' on record.

I dont believe 'minutes' are ever editted normally and especially not for 'tone' as meeting minutes tend to not have any 'tone' to them. Even if my version and manner is a little more serious/proffesional about meetings and stuff than ccp is, its certainly not good to change things like this as you know exactly how your customers will react. Razz

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.27 22:41:00 - [39]
 

The meetings should be recorded and broadcast. CCP just uses NDA as an excuse to hide its unethical/slimy ideas and behavior from the playerbase. There's no rational justification for it.

Asmodeus Et'Mort
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2011.08.27 22:54:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Information Agent
Since when were any meetings 'minutes' subject to editing? Are they not supposed to be a shorthand version of what is said and discussed, also accurate in regard to questions put forward and relating answers given? Therefore by editting the minutes they would be effectively changing 'what was said' on record.

I dont believe 'minutes' are ever editted normally and especially not for 'tone' as meeting minutes tend to not have any 'tone' to them. Even if my version and manner is a little more serious/proffesional about meetings and stuff than ccp is, its certainly not good to change things like this as you know exactly how your customers will react. Razz


QFT

Thats why Im now expecting a precis of ccps minutes rather than anything resembling real minutes of a meeting with only redactions for NDA.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.08.27 23:10:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: White Tree
The minutes have been repeatedly delayed because we're in discussions with CCP regarding the tone of the minutes.


This is most disturbing.

AnzacPaul
Perkone
Posted - 2011.08.27 23:23:00 - [42]
 

To answer Asmodeus, I'm sure it's been mentioned before but I beleive the meetings are recorded, and a CSM member goes back over them, turns them into text, and then sends them to CCP until they agree the tone is correct. In this case I think it's more a case of CCP trying to protect themselves.

In other words expect something like this

CSM> we were disgusted by the lack of response to the forums
CCP> we agree with this

CSM> We feel that you need to start addressing issues that are bothering players
CCP> We agree with this


Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.28 02:09:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 28/08/2011 02:10:18
Originally by: Information Agent
I dont believe 'minutes' are ever editted normally and especially not for 'tone' as meeting minutes tend to not have any 'tone' to them. Even if my version and manner is a little more serious/proffesional about meetings and stuff than ccp is, its certainly not good to change things like this as you know exactly how your customers will react. Razz


It depends on the purpose of the minutes, and the practices of the organization in question.

Some organizations do publish everything that is said, verbatim, word for word. Such minutes are useful if the intended audience is familiar with the issues discussed and the people discussing them, and thereby has an appropriate framework for interpreting the raw dialogue. Conversations between people consist of more than mere words, and a familiarity with both the issues discussed and the people speaking is necessary to avoid misunderstandings. Especially if the meeting in question occurred in a charged atmosphere, where things might have been said that could easily be misinterpreted if taken out of context.

So it does make sense for the minutes to be edited and condensed if they are to be distributed to a broad audience, in order to avoid potential misunderstandings. As long as the content itself -- what was discussed, what decisions were made, and what the players should expect in the future -- remains unchained, I don't think there will be any problems.

Whiteknight03
WESAYSO Industries
Posted - 2011.08.28 02:15:00 - [44]
 

Or, you know, they could just publish the minutes and then give us their interpretation of them. Certainly wouldn't hurt us consumers.

Chrono Seeker
Posted - 2011.08.28 02:32:00 - [45]
 

Probably being translated still....

Bablefish can only do so much so fast.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.28 02:36:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: White Tree
The minutes have been repeatedly delayed because we're in discussions with CCP regarding the tone of the minutes.

I'm going to read this to mean "the minutes in their natural state do not present a flattering image of CCP".

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.28 03:15:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Information Agent
Since when were any meetings 'minutes' subject to editing?


When you make minutes that contain information that is corporate-secret, you edit that information out of the minutes that are then made public.

Meeting minutes are also subject to editing for clarity and for formalization of things that were written down in haste.

Cave Lord
Posted - 2011.08.28 03:22:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Alice Katsuko
Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 28/08/2011 02:10:18
Originally by: Information Agent
I dont believe 'minutes' are ever editted normally and especially not for 'tone' as meeting minutes tend to not have any 'tone' to them. Even if my version and manner is a little more serious/proffesional about meetings and stuff than ccp is, its certainly not good to change things like this as you know exactly how your customers will react. Razz


It depends on the purpose of the minutes, and the practices of the organization in question.

Some organizations do publish everything that is said, verbatim, word for word. Such minutes are useful if the intended audience is familiar with the issues discussed and the people discussing them, and thereby has an appropriate framework for interpreting the raw dialogue. Conversations between people consist of more than mere words, and a familiarity with both the issues discussed and the people speaking is necessary to avoid misunderstandings. Especially if the meeting in question occurred in a charged atmosphere, where things might have been said that could easily be misinterpreted if taken out of context.

So it does make sense for the minutes to be edited and condensed if they are to be distributed to a broad audience, in order to avoid potential misunderstandings. As long as the content itself -- what was discussed, what decisions were made, and what the players should expect in the future -- remains unchained, I don't think there will be any problems.


Seems like a significant amount of word-smithing is being done because they don't trust the players to understand what was discussed. Makes me wonder if they don't trust us because we aren't going to be happy with the crap that was discussed. We weren't happy with the outcome and I guarantee you we won't be happy with the notes, WHEN and IF they are *EVER* released. A month is WAY more than enough time to wordsmith something.

The longer I watch how this crap plays out, the more justified I am in unsubscribing. I can't believe how badly CCP is screwing over the players and you know what? The players kind of deserve it. If only for the fact that the majority are taking it like the sheep they are.

Alice has a point that yes, some things need to be word-smith'd. But CCP never had to wordsmith anything to this degree BEFORE this patch.

CCP. STOP. GET BACK TO YOUR ROOTS.

Vin Hellsing
Posted - 2011.08.28 03:39:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Vin Hellsing on 28/08/2011 03:40:26
Originally by: Lilith Ishanoya
I really doubt CCP/Hilmar's ego can take what the CSM wants to publish, thus they keep "iterating" on it (the only iterating CCP does it seems). Until everyone in the CSM gives in in disgust so that the minutes show exactly what CCP wants them to show. Then they'll be published.


I'll be blunt: If I ran for CSM and got elected to the helm, I would DEFINITELY be the antithesis to Hilmar's ego. I have no interest in sugarcoating everything, and I will, by all means, sear that very fact in his mind for all eternity.

By using the entire first season of "My Little Pony" in my powerpoint presentations.

AnzacPaul
Perkone
Posted - 2011.08.28 04:05:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Vin Hellsing
Edited by: Vin Hellsing on 28/08/2011 03:40:26
Originally by: Lilith Ishanoya
I really doubt CCP/Hilmar's ego can take what the CSM wants to publish, thus they keep "iterating" on it (the only iterating CCP does it seems). Until everyone in the CSM gives in in disgust so that the minutes show exactly what CCP wants them to show. Then they'll be published.


I'll be blunt: If I ran for CSM and got elected to the helm, I would DEFINITELY be the antithesis to Hilmar's ego. I have no interest in sugarcoating everything, and I will, by all means, sear that very fact in his mind for all eternity.

By using the entire first season of "My Little Pony" in my powerpoint presentations.



So it would go something like this

Vin > Leave the minutes as they are, people want to see the true representation of the meetings.
Hilmar > Lol, who runs this company? Here's the minutes edited to our liking, and don't forget your NDA about it.

Laughing

Vin Hellsing
Posted - 2011.08.28 04:26:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: AnzacPaul
Originally by: Vin Hellsing
Edited by: Vin Hellsing on 28/08/2011 03:40:26
Originally by: Lilith Ishanoya
I really doubt CCP/Hilmar's ego can take what the CSM wants to publish, thus they keep "iterating" on it (the only iterating CCP does it seems). Until everyone in the CSM gives in in disgust so that the minutes show exactly what CCP wants them to show. Then they'll be published.


I'll be blunt: If I ran for CSM and got elected to the helm, I would DEFINITELY be the antithesis to Hilmar's ego. I have no interest in sugarcoating everything, and I will, by all means, sear that very fact in his mind for all eternity.

By using the entire first season of "My Little Pony" in my powerpoint presentations.



So it would go something like this

Vin > Leave the minutes as they are, people want to see the true representation of the meetings.
Hilmar > Lol, who runs this company? Here's the minutes edited to our liking, and don't forget your NDA about it.

Laughing


Actually, if Hilmar said that to me, I would call his bluff and up the ante. After all, my core principle has always been transparency, and if anyone tries to undermine that - oh yeah, it's on.

FilterRelease
Posted - 2011.08.28 05:13:00 - [52]
 

this game is ******ed. lol.

Alu Utukku
Posted - 2011.08.28 05:18:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Lykouleon
Originally by: Information Agent
Since when were any meetings 'minutes' subject to editing?


When you make minutes that contain information that is corporate-secret, you edit that information out of the minutes that are then made public.

Meeting minutes are also subject to editing for clarity and for formalization of things that were written down in haste.


editing is fine and dandy.

except it's the end of bloody august for minutes from july. if it were left this long by my employee, i wouldn't expect them to stay employed for long.

Darth Vapour
Posted - 2011.08.28 09:05:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Vin Hellsing
Originally by: AnzacPaul
Originally by: Vin Hellsing
Edited by: Vin Hellsing on 28/08/2011 03:40:26
Originally by: Lilith Ishanoya
I really doubt CCP/Hilmar's ego can take what the CSM wants to publish, thus they keep "iterating" on it (the only iterating CCP does it seems). Until everyone in the CSM gives in in disgust so that the minutes show exactly what CCP wants them to show. Then they'll be published.


I'll be blunt: If I ran for CSM and got elected to the helm, I would DEFINITELY be the antithesis to Hilmar's ego. I have no interest in sugarcoating everything, and I will, by all means, sear that very fact in his mind for all eternity.

By using the entire first season of "My Little Pony" in my powerpoint presentations.



So it would go something like this

Vin > Leave the minutes as they are, people want to see the true representation of the meetings.
Hilmar > Lol, who runs this company? Here's the minutes edited to our liking, and don't forget your NDA about it.

Laughing


Actually, if Hilmar said that to me, I would call his bluff and up the ante. After all, my core principle has always been transparency, and if anyone tries to undermine that - oh yeah, it's on.


Vin: It's on !
Hilmar: So you want your real name on the internet as someone who violated a Non Disclosure Agreement ? That will come in handy in any future job applications.

Written Word
Written Word's Tax Haven
Posted - 2011.08.28 09:21:00 - [55]
 

After reading the last minutes I'm pretty sure this one will be

CSM: Question?

CCP: HURRRRR WE ARE A HUGE GROWING COMPANY WITH NO RESOURCES. STFU

Copy/paste until desired length

Pytria Le'Danness
Posted - 2011.08.28 09:43:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Nin Kimrov
... only null sec players from power blocs voted. I through you would have know that.


I voted too, but my interests did not get pushed forward. Same as in RL politics I guess. At least the CSM is not giving away billions of EUR to banks and ailing EU countries who ruined themselves and afterwards claim they have no money left for most of the urgent social issues we face.


Vaako Horizon
Posted - 2011.08.28 09:54:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Vaako Horizon on 28/08/2011 10:05:47
The CSM have never been anything but a PR tool...

Did anyone notice they pushed the patch 2 days? they forgot to and another pair of pants :P

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.28 12:41:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Asmodeus Et'Mort
So White tree the CSM did make sure they had independent minutes of these meetings? and who was responsible for taking those minutes? Why do you have to look at the tone? Are these proper minutes or as its starting to sound a precis of the minutes?

All of the sessions were recorded. CCP prepared an initial draft, then CSM reviewed it and the session recordings and produced a revised draft.

We are now on the 5th draft.

The minutes will be published when CCP and CSM can agree on a draft.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.28 12:46:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
The minutes will be published when CCP and CSM can agree on a draft.

That would be never?

Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.08.28 12:53:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: BuckStrider
Edited by: BuckStrider on 27/08/2011 14:29:13
Let's say CCP calls another emergency meetingRolling Eyes of the CSM, or even just a regularly scheduled one.

When they arrive at the confrence room to start the meeting with CEO Hilmar and some Devs, they find out that 'White Tree' missed his flight and won't be making it until the next day. CSM Chairman 'The Mitani' bends down, removes his left shoe as well as his sock and places the sock over his hand. He says to everyone gathered "White Tree is right here and we can begin the meeting."

Now here's the best part....

After the meeting is concluded for the day, 'The Mitani' heads to the bar. He decides that he's going to get '**** faced again in Iceland' and drinks himself into a stupor. The next day, eveyone notices that CSM Chairman 'The Mitani' is missing and the other CSM members don't want to start without him. Hilmar calmly bends down and removes his left shoe and sock. He places the sock over his hand and says "The Mitani is here and we can start the meeting...See, he's a puppet too."


Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

All of the sessions were recorded. CCP prepared an initial draft, then CSM reviewed it and the session recordings and produced a revised draft.

We are now on the 5th draft.

The minutes will be published when CCP and CSM can agree on a draft.


Here, CSM are puppets.


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