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zeberath
Posted - 2011.08.26 23:37:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: zeberath on 26/08/2011 23:37:46
I tried some 0.01 war with some items just for the lulz because i'm bored of L4 and my standings are ****ing going down.

So i wanna ask if this "profession" needs 24/7 to be worth?
I was pseudo-afk checking the prices during 6 hours or so, managed to buy about 30 things with +200k profit each, unable to sell them in that time.
Only about 10 / 10 sells/buy orders active. So i think in a couple days i will sell the stuff and earn like +10% isk. Still looks too low isk to me, and soon my max time playing will be 3hours.

TLDR:
This "profession" needs 24/7 playtime to be worth? how much time each day you do tradingwar

YuuKnow
Posted - 2011.08.26 23:43:00 - [2]
 

Supposedly there are trading bots out there waging the 0.01 wars for players.

Ezra Larkyn
Quafe Logistics
Posted - 2011.08.27 00:20:00 - [3]
 

Half an Hour in the morning and one Hour in the evening to make a 2% - 4% Revenue per week by a capital of 1 billion.


zeberath
Posted - 2011.08.27 00:28:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Ezra Larkyn
Half an Hour in the morning and one Hour in the evening to make a 2% - 4% Revenue per week by a capital of 1 billion.




hmm the point is, you can't go anywhere... at the time you leave eve, other will just price it 0.01 isk less, then you wont buy or sell that thing unless ppl buy it all the supplies above, and i don't think so.

Nikodiemus
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.08.27 00:54:00 - [5]
 

You can tell who is botting by changing the sell//buy order and then checking if it goes up by a set amount in around 5 minutes or less after your change (set amount say .01 or .1 etc.) You can also learn to work the bots evil players are using: if you are buying, and change the buy order up to what the bot is triggered at, getting a normally low volume item with relative predictability> Learning what the bot is triggered at is hard, but relatively large set amounts say 10k 100k increase and a nice round number are the best ways.

Its also good if you learn who is botting, report it, because the .01 wars are ****ing disgusting.

When I had to deal with the .01 thing, i just modify the order, spin the mouse wheel and reset. But typically if you change by larger increments the bots won't follow because they have a ceiling. You also hurt your margin this way, which is one reason the bots are evil.

If you see someone changing by .01, its almost def. a bot. People don't do that, it takes longer than just wheeling or ignoring the order.

If you want to do real trading on margins in a station, keep a 10% rule on profit and just experiement with quantities and items to see where the best money comes in for your investment. a few hundred mil or a bil is pleanty to start with and make some isk with less work//time//monotony than missioning when you get the hang of it.

TO answer the question, I don't trade war, but I trade about 1 hour a day on and off doing other things.

Kara Books
Posted - 2011.08.27 01:05:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Kara Books on 27/08/2011 01:35:01
I can confirm a market bot belonging to a Russian gate camper in Amarr, the price changes are always .04 ISK, im positive its a bot, and not a human player short of not being there in real life to take a picture and post it on the net.


A Russian Gate camper was very sour about not being able to compete against a human.

as for penny wars, you need just over 10 billion 125 market slots and at-least level 4 margin trading, when I was doing it I was yanking a good 200-400M per day till my competitor turned on his bot when he couldn't compete any more. now the ***** market in amarr wont make anything more then 60 per day, no matter how hard you try, because to compete against something that never sleeps means sitting there, like a bot yourself... NO no.. it aint working.

When you run into a bot, just destroy the margins of that item Troll it to the point of no existence, why not, not like anything bot the bot gonna make something, so be 100% sure to up and down the prices by 10% or whatever, be sure to sell an item to it and report!


I guess you can still make 100-200M per day penny fighting it if your really crazy like that.... but its not something permanent, moral of the story is, you cant fight fair if you want to win, or if your against bots then you cant win.

trance atlas
Posted - 2011.08.27 01:57:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: zeberath
Originally by: Ezra Larkyn
Half an Hour in the morning and one Hour in the evening to make a 2% - 4% Revenue per week by a capital of 1 billion.




hmm the point is, you can't go anywhere... at the time you leave eve, other will just price it 0.01 isk less, then you wont buy or sell that thing unless ppl buy it all the supplies above, and i don't think so.



Find a slower item


I get 15 mins before I go to work then 12 hrs later get on once or twice between family time I do fine

Nikodiemus
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.08.27 03:13:00 - [8]
 

Since we are debating bots:

If you detect a bot in trading, since they are the easiest to program and predict, use the new and wondrous reporting abilities to kill it. Sure CCP doesn't work instantly, but the more legit reports the more resources and personnel they have to apply to the problem, increasing its important. Report them if you suspect, but first read the CCP blog on what makes a bot. I'd link it but I am too lazy.

From what I see, the "mining" or "Rating" bots are not the biggest problem. The Market bots are NOW causing a lot of paper cut problems.

IceFyre S18
Zulu Labs
Zulu People
Posted - 2011.08.27 03:16:00 - [9]
 

2-3 times x 15 min per day for a 200-400M profit.
12-16 hrs when I need isk, very aggressive, no bot can beat me. 1,7-2B trade profit per day.

Sobaan Tuan
Posted - 2011.08.27 06:32:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: zeberath


TLDR:
This "profession" needs 24/7 playtime to be worth? how much time each day you do tradingwar


try getting out of the major hub regions. I rarely have to update my orders. (less purchases but higher profits, usually)

zeberath
Posted - 2011.08.27 07:02:00 - [11]
 

With all these bots, i'm afraid of CCP false positives, when i played other mmo, i was banned once because being suspicious of RMT activities... What i did was just play the action house game (the game was final fantasy xi by the way, lot of people got banned this way with false positives).
The algorithm they implemented was called " RMT PWNER V1337 ", i lol'd until i got banned.
Some people just played the grind and level up game, and i was just trying to make money...


So i'm afraid if i fight the bots or humans like crazy during my 3-4 hours checking my stations 20-25 orders every 15min~ i might end into the "suspicious bot checker algorithm".

Sure gonna check other mini-hubs transactions, but is a bad thing the history log is region based, and not station based, or system based..


malaire
Posted - 2011.08.27 08:26:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: malaire on 27/08/2011 08:41:23
Originally by: Nikodiemus
If you see someone changing by .01, its almost def. a bot. People don't do that, it takes longer than just wheeling or ignoring the order.

Not allways true. I use external application to calculate and show list of recommended prices, and then I just copy-paste those prices one by one to modify-order window. Really fast.

Also, that external application has nice logic. If competitor lowers price a lot, I make 0.01 ISK better offer, but if competitor lowers price by 0.01 ISK, I lower by random small amount (to make it hard for him to lower manually by 0.01 ISK again)

I love Market PvP Very Happy

ps. I didn't know about mouse-wheel support. Allways something new to learn in EVE.

edit: And to answer OP:

Some days I trade for 10+ hours. Not online whole time, but checking orders maybe every 0.5-2 hours depending on what else I'm doing, and every 5-15 minutes when I have more time and competitors are more active.

When I have less time I concentrate on items which only needs 1-2 updates per day to give acceptable profit.

malaire
Posted - 2011.08.27 08:55:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: zeberath
So i'm afraid if i fight the bots or humans like crazy during my 3-4 hours checking my stations 20-25 orders every 15min~ i might end into the "suspicious bot checker algorithm".

I don't think you need to fear that. Sure, you could get reported, but CCP knows there are many traders with far too much time to use, and that not every one who plays aggressive 0.01 ISK wars is actually bot.

Anya Ohaya
Posted - 2011.08.27 11:31:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Nikodiemus

If you see someone changing by .01, its almost def. a bot. People don't do that [...]



Confirming I am not a person.

Zelda Wei
Caldari
New Horizon Trade Exchange
Posted - 2011.08.27 11:47:00 - [15]
 


Playing the 0.01 isk games is the market equivalent of F1,F2,F3... in PvP. Find a better strategy.

Kesshisan
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.27 15:47:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Kesshisan on 27/08/2011 15:46:59
It takes me about 2 hours to get setup. (Figure out which items, and how many, and posting them all, etc.)

I then log on twice a day for about 10 minutes each day to .01isking everything.

I try to find items that no other people are selling or only a few people are selling to minimize the chances of someone else .01isking me.

Xinlisupreme
Posted - 2011.08.27 20:05:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Nikodiemus

If you see someone changing by .01, its almost def. a bot. People don't do that, it takes longer than just wheeling or ignoring the order.


This is the exact reason why I do take the time to 0.01 isk all my market orders. People tend to think I'm a bot, and leave the market because they believe they can't compete. Mindgames!

Klumsysmurf
Posted - 2011.08.28 00:08:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Xinlisupreme
Originally by: Nikodiemus

If you see someone changing by .01, its almost def. a bot. People don't do that, it takes longer than just wheeling or ignoring the order.


This is the exact reason why I do take the time to 0.01 isk all my market orders. People tend to think I'm a bot, and leave the market because they believe they can't compete. Mindgames!



I 0.01 isk because the simply fact is that unless I undercut by so much that they're not willing to undercut me, it won't make a difference if I do it by 0.01 or 1000 isk, except that I make more isk in the .01 way.

Honestly, if you don't .01 isk you are an idiot, unless you're undercutting by enough of an amount to try to drive out other people. When I see someone dropping the price of a 1+ million isk item by several thousand isk I shake my head and .01 isk them. All they are doing is driving down their own profits (and mine) faster than if they .01 isked me.

That being said, how do you report a suspected market botter? I have 2 I've spotted with some of the items I"m selling in Jita, but I don't know how to figure out who they are without buying something from them, which I refuse to do.



Serene Python
Posted - 2011.08.28 00:17:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Serene Python on 28/08/2011 00:19:15
Originally by: Klumsysmurf
Originally by: Xinlisupreme
Originally by: Nikodiemus

If you see someone changing by .01, its almost def. a bot. People don't do that, it takes longer than just wheeling or ignoring the order.


This is the exact reason why I do take the time to 0.01 isk all my market orders. People tend to think I'm a bot, and leave the market because they believe they can't compete. Mindgames!



I 0.01 isk because the simply fact is that unless I undercut by so much that they're not willing to undercut me, it won't make a difference if I do it by 0.01 or 1000 isk, except that I make more isk in the .01 way.

Honestly, if you don't .01 isk you are an idiot, unless you're undercutting by enough of an amount to try to drive out other people. When I see someone dropping the price of a 1+ million isk item by several thousand isk I shake my head and .01 isk them. All they are doing is driving down their own profits (and mine) faster than if they .01 isked me.

That being said, how do you report a suspected market botter? I have 2 I've spotted with some of the items I"m selling in Jita, but I don't know how to figure out who they are without buying something from them, which I refuse to do.





I bet you're the kind of person who genuinely complains cause a person has a CSPA charge...


To answer OP, I can update 3 times a day and make 100-200m profit(318m today for maybe 5 times). Each time takes me 15 minutes while I'm talking to friends/getting distracted. Easily 5 minutes if I'm updating my 50~ orders dedicated.

Klumsysmurf
Posted - 2011.08.28 00:28:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Serene Python
Edited by: Serene Python on 28/08/2011 00:19:15
Originally by: Klumsysmurf
Originally by: Xinlisupreme
Originally by: Nikodiemus

If you see someone changing by .01, its almost def. a bot. People don't do that, it takes longer than just wheeling or ignoring the order.


This is the exact reason why I do take the time to 0.01 isk all my market orders. People tend to think I'm a bot, and leave the market because they believe they can't compete. Mindgames!



I 0.01 isk because the simply fact is that unless I undercut by so much that they're not willing to undercut me, it won't make a difference if I do it by 0.01 or 1000 isk, except that I make more isk in the .01 way.

Honestly, if you don't .01 isk you are an idiot, unless you're undercutting by enough of an amount to try to drive out other people. When I see someone dropping the price of a 1+ million isk item by several thousand isk I shake my head and .01 isk them. All they are doing is driving down their own profits (and mine) faster than if they .01 isked me.

That being said, how do you report a suspected market botter? I have 2 I've spotted with some of the items I"m selling in Jita, but I don't know how to figure out who they are without buying something from them, which I refuse to do.





I bet you're the kind of person who genuinely complains cause a person has a CSPA charge...


To answer OP, I can update 3 times a day and make 100-200m profit(318m today for maybe 5 times). Each time takes me 15 minutes while I'm talking to friends/getting distracted. Easily 5 minutes if I'm updating my 50~ orders dedicated.


CSPA charge? If that was directed at me then wtf, I have no idea what you're trying to say. But grats on your awesome profits with mininmal effort. I just created an alt in Jita to attempt the same thing. Unluckily 2 of the items I chose to invest a significant amount of isk in had someone come in shortly after with a ~20 day supply of items and they seem to be on ~18 hours/day undercutting.

Learned an important lesson, look for higher volume items and diversify a lot more. Luckily for me I got plenty of isk to do that now, but these items will take a while to sell.

AndreaMena
Minmatar
Tanuki Heavy Industries
Posted - 2011.08.28 01:44:00 - [21]
 

Haven't read all the replies but this is my take on the topic.

If you find markets fast enough and with enough volume (as in high volume low value trading in JITA) You can log in once in the morning, once midday and once in the evening/night and it'll be ok since your stock would be bought/sold before the need of serious agressive 0.01ISK pricing

Also nets you about 3-10% a week in profit. At least it does to me when im arsed enough to trade, coz lately i've been finding more fun stuff to do in EvE :)

Nikodiemus
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.08.28 04:30:00 - [22]
 

Not to oversimplify trading, but it all comes down to the amount of time spent vs the profit generated. You can spend 1 hour per day with 4 diff characters in PI and make an easy 120mil a week. You can also run missions for 2 straight hours and make near the FABLED 30mil per hour (really two) - varied of course upon number of characters.

If you invest in high cost items that generate say 10-25% profit you are sure to sell very few or buy very few over a set amount of time. You also need to check in less and micromanage the market less than having many or few low cost items with the same profit margins in MASSIVE quantities.

malaire
Posted - 2011.08.28 05:45:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: malaire on 28/08/2011 05:48:38
Originally by: Klumsysmurf
That being said, how do you report a suspected market botter? I have 2 I've spotted with some of the items I"m selling in Jita, but I don't know how to figure out who they are without buying something from them, which I refuse to do.

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2352

edit: err, I misread. Yep you can't know who they are without actually buying something from them.

However, if you are using cache reader, you can get orderID from that, and then you could make petition about those bots and mention the orderID of their orders. CCP can then find out which characters had those orderIDs.

Kei Darker
Posted - 2011.08.28 17:09:00 - [24]
 

Wow. There are a lot of failposts in this thread.
Where to start.

If you make 2-4% weekly on 1 billion capital, trading a total of 1.5 hours every day, you're doing it wrong. With that capital and time commitment, you should be able to hit 10% or higher returns without a problem. Just be smart about what items you are in.

0.01 ISK changes are extremely common by human traders, not just bots. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

If you want to do trading as a profession in Eve, and you want to focus in a trade hub, no you don't have to do it 24/7. You should however know that you will be spending a lot of time updating orders to make sure you are at least in the lead by 0.01 ISK. In Jita, this usually means refreshing your entire list of items a few times a day if your capital is low, or else just having a very large number of buy and sell orders that are updated every day or two. The time spent doing it or time of day is much less important than the number of times you refresh. Usually waiting 10 minutes between refreshing to be number one and waiting 3 hours will have no difference on the number of items sold between. Refreshing your orders often makes profit. Period.

Like any other profession in Eve, if you want the competitive edge, you're going to have to train the skills. Accounting, Broker Relations, and Margin trading to 5 for starters. That's going to raise your profits tremendously compared to the amount of time and effort you would need to put in without them, or even having them all at 4.

TLDR: It takes effort to trade successfully, but you don't have to do 24/7 to make decent profits.

Kazn Antilli
Incompertus INC
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.08.29 17:56:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: zeberath
With all these bots, i'm afraid of CCP false positives, when i played other mmo, i was banned once because being suspicious of RMT activities... What i did was just play the action house game (the game was final fantasy xi by the way, lot of people got banned this way with false positives).
The algorithm they implemented was called " RMT PWNER V1337 ", i lol'd until i got banned.
Some people just played the grind and level up game, and i was just trying to make money...


So i'm afraid if i fight the bots or humans like crazy during my 3-4 hours checking my stations 20-25 orders every 15min~ i might end into the "suspicious bot checker algorithm".

Sure gonna check other mini-hubs transactions, but is a bad thing the history log is region based, and not station based, or system based..




Luckily CCP is not as paranoid as SE. :P A lot of people got banned in FFXI for pretty much just finding ways to make decent money (including myself.)

Kalipoli
Posted - 2011.08.30 18:15:00 - [26]
 

All Day. I will be mistaken for a bot sometime. I have not yet but i have my computer available every hour of every day and have been known to change orders if needed in the middle of the night if i wake up.

But on another note, if one is smart with where they place their sell orders you will sell at the price you want and not have to .01 it to the bottom.

Kara Books
Posted - 2011.08.31 12:28:00 - [27]
 

If CCP is not going to take a serious stance against bots, then maybe they should go head and let us all use market bots.
Bots cause new players grief, they not only support some lazy person's free game time but they take the fun out of the game from people actually playing the game, and Im talking specifically about Market bots.

When you run into bots, you dont see it right away, only after a few days you just know, you just know somethings not right..

against a Bot:
All I can do is force the market price buy orders really high and the sell orders really low, as far as the bot will mod the price... other then that is a nightmare and hopefully CCP will introduce some SEVER penalties to any IP addresses that use bots, not the alternate accounts, because people aren't stupid, im talking about people thinking, do I want to risk my beloved main account incurring restrictions if my bot gets caught?


As for market trading, I WAS making 100-400 million per day, now its 30-90 with the market bot randomly hitting up the most profitable items I have at any given point and time, obviously I insta crash the hell out of those items because there is no chance of winning, You try it day after day if you dont believe me.

with the current rules and how they are being enforced by CCP, people still chose to run bots Openly in trade hubs! and that bothers me because I came here to Eve online to be a Merchant, that's what I do for fun.

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:11:00 - [28]
 

Quote:

It takes me about 2 hours to get setup. (Figure out which items, and how many, and posting them all, etc.)

I then log on twice a day for about 10 minutes each day to .01isking everything.

I try to find items that no other people are selling or only a few people are selling to minimize the chances of someone else .01isking me.



This is what I do. I use an alt with reasonable trade skills that's perma-parked at my chosen station. I trade about 25 items and just 0.01-isk them 2-3 times a day.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.09.01 02:37:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Ezra Larkyn
Half an Hour in the morning and one Hour in the evening to make a 2% - 4% Revenue per week by a capital of 1 billion.



Wait, you make 2-4% off of a 1 billion ISK investment per week? And you spend an hour and a half every day maintaining your orders? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it more worthwhile to mine Veldspar in high sec?

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2011.09.01 12:22:00 - [30]
 

40 million for 7 hours of trading does indeed seem like a pretty bad deal...


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