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Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.26 16:34:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Mendolus


Has it happened yet? Does staring at a clear sky worrying about the possibility that a meteor will fall from out of nowhere and destroy your house do you any good?

When it happens, let's talk. Honestly when it happens, I won't be here much longer for us to talk about it, will you?

Then our debate is pointless, is it not?

So long as it is only vanity items, who the **** really cares once CCP makes them consumable or leaves them as is and makes them destructible instead?

IF they start selling gold ammo, you can claim the sky is falling all you want.


lol yes, ignore the warning I was trying to give from what they did and told us in STO cause that "MIGHT" happen here.

Thats all I was trying to do, warn ppl that it went like that there.
All youre apparently trying to do is defend the MT store

Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.08.26 16:40:00 - [32]
 

There's a lack of logic in explanation.

Paying 180$ a year is more then enough to keep MMO developing and covering all the expenses associated with it. And develop one more game in process. CCP decided to develop two games. I don't see why we have to pay for that decision anyhow. It's their decision, their problems and should not concern my wallet in any way shape or form.

Introduction of MT shop in EVE as many already said that indicates a serious danger of breaking the game not in small part due to "Greed is Good" philosophy. It's a closed circle. Subscription - MT shop - less subscribers - MT shop items to gain more $ - even less subscribers - F2P - full P2W. If CCP thinks it can break the circle at some point their are grossly mistaken. Less subscribers - less money = loans and development fees not getting any lower.
CCP just takes the path many has taken before and that makes players very anxious, angry, insulted. People invested years of their time in this game. For some it became some kind of a local club or bar to which they log in daily. Now what CCP does is breaks that gameplay with their MT shop. And brightest or more experienced among player base see where that leads. To the end of EVE Online. Not now, may be not in a year or two. But to the inevitable end that many good games that "Greed is good" philosophy taken to.

No amount of rational explanation will surpass the fact that CCP take the very wrong turn that players very much don't like.

As for charging for expansions... that would kill EVE on first such attempt. Instantly. So in that way CCP did correct decision not to introduce it.

As for other games. I can buy single player game for 15-30$ today. Crysis 2 goes for what? 75$ when i checked it last time. That game have outstanding single player with top of the line graphics and work on low end machines too. It have excellent multiplayer i dont have to pay a cent for. And free updates. Expansions? These expansions equals to standalone games in itself. You can't compare amount of development and money invested in something like Crysis 2 and EVE Online. Obviously over the years Crysis 2 ate a lot more money then EVE Online ever had. And still it is a very succesful title. And very profitable despite piracy losses. Server costs very high? No they don't. I work in the industry. Not that high. So please, lets not talk about CCP can't sustain EVE Online from subscriptions. It can and it is with large profit.
Again we back to CCP decision to fund two more games development from profits of EVE. That is not my problem and should never concern me as player of EVE Online. They made a mistake, i will not pay for it. Not enough money? Cancel one of these games. Still not enough? Cancel both and concentrate on cash cow that brings you money. When you will have again enough to develop another game, do smart decision and develop one more game. Greed in history of humanity destroyed many things. In recent history too. Take a look at all these abandoned games that weren't bad but greed of the owners destroyed them. May be EVE Online deserve a different fate then that?

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.26 16:51:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Mendolus


Has it happened yet? Does staring at a clear sky worrying about the possibility that a meteor will fall from out of nowhere and destroy your house do you any good?

When it happens, let's talk. Honestly when it happens, I won't be here much longer for us to talk about it, will you?

Then our debate is pointless, is it not?

So long as it is only vanity items, who the **** really cares once CCP makes them consumable or leaves them as is and makes them destructible instead?

IF they start selling gold ammo, you can claim the sky is falling all you want.


lol yes, ignore the warning I was trying to give from what they did and told us in STO cause that "MIGHT" happen here.

Thats all I was trying to do, warn ppl that it went like that there.
All youre apparently trying to do is defend the MT store


Long as they do not sell non-vanity items I could care less if the NEX store sells pink panties or crash helmets, though I might enjoy seeing the former on female avatars a lot more...

All I am saying is, a warning is a warning, but we all know EVE could not handle gold ammo, and so does CCP, so do not count on it ever happening; if it does, you might as well pack your bags, just like most of the rest of us will.

Until then I plan on not even worrying about it, just like the meteor that could strike my car at any moment... if it does, my car will obviously be totaled, so time for a new one.

Worry less friend, I promise you will enjoy life a lot more, this is a video game after all, why not entertain yourself as much as possible and move on if and when you find yourself at odds with the game developers at some point in the future?

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.26 16:55:00 - [34]
 

Quote:
Admit, CCP tried MT way already. They see it's not working too well and they see it will lead them into abyss.


wheres your source there Nostradumbass?

Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.08.26 17:00:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Quote:
Admit, CCP tried MT way already. They see it's not working too well and they see it will lead them into abyss.


wheres your source there Nostradumbass?


Sudden spike in discussion of MTs in forums Smartadumbass.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.26 17:03:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Alex Sinai
...


I agree that DUST514 and WoD developed concurrently is alarming, but if anything it could very well be a desperate move to remain relevant in a changing industry, who knows.

All I know is, for now, my game is largely the same as it was two years ago, and while this is pretty depressing, this is not Warcraft, we do not necessarily need to be spoon fed new content every six months to be amused, we provide more than half of the content ourselves just by the nature of the game itself. Though I DO want new spaceship content, oh how I want it.

If anything I am merely disappointed that Dominion problems are only just now being even legitimately talked about, i.e. insofar as "****, we really messed up guys."

Most people I know that lived in null figured that one out a few weeks after release when the NC got welped hard and you could look at half the null regions in the game and see a dozen unclaimed systems that no one knew how to pay for yet (read: botting), so why did it take CCP two years to admit it?

The problem is in comparing solo games to online games, you have to actually understand that the code base over time has to be maintained for MMOs, that is way more overhead than releasing a new solo game every few years.

I deal with this every day, the application I am in charge of has tens of thousands of lines of code that have to be maintained over time, it is a lot more work than it seems. You cannot easily document 'code', because it is... code.

It is like documenting a paragraph, using words, all you can really do is highlight keywords or write theory, unless you are sitting there actually reading the full sentences you still can't add a random "the" to any sentence you want and have a guarantee it 'works'.

MMO code is likely just as much of a pain to maintain as I imagine it to be, I have seen code for some companies that was in the hundreds of thousands of lines.

They had method blocks in their source code that were nine years old and still causing bugs, and no one knew about it until I caught a tiny blip of a problem while QA testing their product.

A nine year old bug, no one even knew it existed, but it sat there all that time, lurking.

MMOs have high overhead development wise, I really do not know about the hardware itself at all, but I breathe software engineering forty hours a week for five years straight, can def tell you it ain't as easy as it sounds.

Oh'Freddled Gruntbuggly
Posted - 2011.08.26 17:10:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Digital Messiah


  1. Subscriptions

  2. Expansions

  3. Macro Transactions

  4. Micro Transactions

  5. Real Life Advertisements




All of them together isn't going to be much fun.

Vol Arm'OOO
Posted - 2011.08.26 17:10:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
EQ2 actually wasn't THAT bad of a game. Its just suffered from age and heavy competition(WoW) which caused its downfall.

Competition is the one thing Eve hasn't really had to worry about. Its been the saving grace for CCP and Eve for years now.


EQ2 did suffer from age, it suffered from SOE.
EQ2 was for a while a decent pvp/pve game. Unfortunately, after kos every time you turned around soe changed the core rules of the game. You never knew what the flavor of the month was going to be -- only that some how in some way soe would make the game worse.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.08.26 17:21:00 - [39]
 

It's a matter of perception of value and fairness.

In a subscription it's understood that everyone is paying to play, since everyone is paying to play there are certain expectations of "fairness" that need to be maintained. The addition of a cash shop in those cases breaks the perception of "fairness" because the general consensus is that the influence of actions outside the game to the results inside the game should be minimal. I mean you can't stop someone with more RL money from having a better faster computer or having multiple accounts but you can stop them from bypassing game mechanics.


That in the end is the real kicker. The bypassing of game mechanics. EVE is a game that hinges on the idea that loss has consequence. The PVP experience is more invigorating than other places because you know you've actually destroyed someones time and effort when you blow up there ship and that you have risked your own time and effort in the process.


Games that start out as F2P have a completely different expectation, It's understood that the free players are simply freeloaders and if they left who cares anyway it's not like any revenue was lost.

In a subscription game all your users are paying customers and the ones who leave over disgust at the idea of micro-transactions are a loss of real revenue. That's something that I think CCP's execs failed to take into consideration when they rolled out the NEX store thinking that they could simply ignore the raging of the player base.

Battlefield Hero's got away with it because in the end the ones who left over micro-transactions weren't paying them anything anyway. In fact it was actually a net gain for them since those freeloaders were chewing up processor cycles, As long as they could retain enough to keep the servers from feeling deserted they would be fine.

In EVE on the other hand every single account is worth $15 a month and each player probably an average of $30 and that's recurring so multiply that by 12 for the year and that by however many years they're liable to play if not driven off.

It's one thing to daydream about imaginary revenues that you might make from new users, it's something entirely different to watch actual revenue disappear.

Sadly as posts such as yours demonstrate the siren call of unrealized riches is hard to ignore particularly by people who've confused past fortune with personal brilliance.

EVE has actually addressed the primary problem that MT and FTP models exist to address. That problem being how to get customers who have more money than time to pay more and how to keep those players who have more time than money to keep your population heavy.

The GTC system was a stroke of brilliance in that respect (though at this point I'm not certain they realized this aspect of it).

There is an excellent series of articles that someone linked a while back that does a very good job of articulating the "problem" that these companies are attempting to address. (There is also an explanation buried in there on why all the inflation worriers are clueless).

In the end I think a lot of us understand that there are really only two reasons for a company to attempt to change from subscription based to MT based.

1: The title is failing in the market and going F2P is a last desperate effort to milk a little more revenue out of their investment.

2: They expect to generate more revenue from P2W than they would from subscriptions which we read as they plan o gouging the crap out of us.

Micro-transactions make us think of overage and roaming charges on older cell phone plans or millage charges on car rentals and leases.

As far as how I want them to make their money. I say don't mess with success. Don't let desire for imaginary riches cloud their vision of the riches they are already receiving.

Like they say on Wall-street. Bulls make money; Bears make money; Pigs get slaughtered.


Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.08.26 17:39:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
...


I admit that I have no idea how software code side works in MMOs.

Hardware side servers maintenence costs isn't high. Acquisition of decent servers do cost a lot but these servers do the job for years and majority of them covered by manufacturer's warranty service. Bandwidth is a bit of an issue but again manageable comparing to profitability. Nothing in six zeroes high or even close to it.

In common sense way and according to logic CCP probably will release spaceships expansions now but we never know until we see it. I just hope that it won't be "NoX spaceships items" along the way.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.26 17:52:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 26/08/2011 17:54:16
Originally by: Alex Sinai
Originally by: Mendolus
...


I admit that I have no idea how software code side works in MMOs.

Hardware side servers maintenence costs isn't high. Acquisition of decent servers do cost a lot but these servers do the job for years and majority of them covered by manufacturer's warranty service. Bandwidth is a bit of an issue but again manageable comparing to profitability. Nothing in six zeroes high or even close to it.

In common sense way and according to logic CCP probably will release spaceships expansions now but we never know until we see it. I just hope that it won't be "NoX spaceships items" along the way.


LOL me too, I'm not paying for five subs out of pocket while trying to build something out in null just so some trust fund kid can get an [iWin] supercap with his exorbitant allowance, this happens enough ingame already without it happening out of game.

Technically he can do this already, but creating even easier ways for him to do it is not my idea of a good time, lol...

Also something to consider, did you catch the blurb from CCP where they claimed they were going to release the Ishukone Scorpion before the NEX store was capable of doing 'exchanges' just so people could have access to it, and that they would monitor it extremely closely to make sure it did not have a negative impact on the player driven market? Because without an exchange in place, people with AUR would technically be able to buy Ishukone Scorpions that would be created out of thin air and then placed into the game economy, and being able to reprocess these ships, means minerals could be 'bought' with real money.

The blip hit the radar for about a couple days before CCP yanked all mention of it and we saw neither hide nor hair of the Ishukone Scorpion in the NEX and have yet to. I think a dev somewhere mentioned it once or something, saying that they decided it was not worth the risk or some such thing... I can't remember, I am not meticulous about logging or tracking dev blogs or posts, takes too much fun out of the game for me, I rarely do anything in my spare time besides play the actual game, when it comes to anything EVE related at least. Rarely spend one iota of my free time perusing endless logs, posts, and resources concerning things that may or may not ever come to be, would honestly rather just blow stuff up and forget about it.

So at least someone over there at CCP decided, hey... this is not what we want for this game, let's just wait until the NEX exchange code is up and running before we go allowing what would even temporarily be a non-vanity item in the game for even a few weeks, let alone permanently.

Something to consider ^

Enormously Huge
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.26 18:00:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: AnzacPaul
but I guess making more money is more important.

...Yeah, of course it is. It always has been, always will be.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.08.26 18:12:00 - [43]
 

Quote:
Yeah the title of that memo tends to go in the face of that. "greed is good" is as bad a phrase as they ever could have chosen and given the security leaks in CCP in the past, any memos they put out should be looked at as though they might make it to the players because they probably will. I think that title alone disputes the claim that "theyre not as money hungry as they look".


/Facepalm

The title was actually "Greed is Good?", and if you don't understand the cultural reference implied by that phrase followed by a question mark you probably shouldn't use it as an example to support your assumption.

Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.08.26 18:13:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
...


That is exactly I'm so much against NeX shop.
Ishukone Scorpion was mentioned before Incarna release as an item that will be sold via NeX shop.
When Incarna hit and all Hell broke loose CCP hid any mention of it and pretended it never happen.

That is one of the biggest reasons I am in total opposition to NeX shop. Because we all sense where it going to lead if they not remove that thing from the game.
NeX shop presence also a reason why I did not added a sub for character I really need and instead trained one on expense of training time for another. I'm not going to sub more or even pay RM for subscription until I see that RMT shop going down or be sure there will be no game affecting items. Including ship paints.

So with that NeX shop CCP not only lost some revenue it also prevented itself from gaining more revenue due to players being weary about all the story with their MT shop and the way game going to take.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.26 18:17:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Alex Sinai
Originally by: Mendolus
...


That is exactly I'm so much against NeX shop.
Ishukone Scorpion was mentioned before Incarna release as an item that will be sold via NeX shop.
When Incarna hit and all Hell broke loose CCP hid any mention of it and pretended it never happen.

That is one of the biggest reasons I am in total opposition to NeX shop. Because we all sense where it going to lead if they not remove that thing from the game.
NeX shop presence also a reason why I did not added a sub for character I really need and instead trained one on expense of training time for another. I'm not going to sub more or even pay RM for subscription until I see that RMT shop going down or be sure there will be no game affecting items. Including ship paints.

So with that NeX shop CCP not only lost some revenue it also prevented itself from gaining more revenue due to players being weary about all the story with their MT shop and the way game going to take.


True... I am pretty optimistic that they removed all mention of it in future blogs for good reasons though, the reasons you and I both hope for and not because they were trying to cover up their real plans or anything.

So I feel they still think better of the non-vanity items, you may feel that they are trying to sneak them in somehow, hopefully more people at CCP feel the way I think they do than the way you may think they do, or we'll both be quitting, rofl.

Razz

Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.08.26 18:24:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Mendolus

So I feel they still think better of the non-vanity items, you may feel that they are trying to sneak them in somehow, hopefully more people at CCP feel the way I think they do than the way you may think they do, or we'll both be quitting, rofl.

Razz


Very well said. Hope you right on every word about CCP!Very Happy
Since you absolutely right about quitting part.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.26 18:29:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Alex Sinai
Originally by: Mendolus

So I feel they still think better of the non-vanity items, you may feel that they are trying to sneak them in somehow, hopefully more people at CCP feel the way I think they do than the way you may think they do, or we'll both be quitting, rofl.

Razz


Very well said. Hope you right on every word about CCP!Very Happy
Since you absolutely right about quitting part.


Yea, I'm out the door the moment they sell non-vanity times, I adore my friends here, but non-vanity goods are where I draw the line. I am pretty sure CCP is aware that there are more of us <<< than not, so... here's to wishful thinking!

Very Happy

Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.08.26 18:59:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Mendolus

Yea, I'm out the door the moment they sell non-vanity times, I adore my friends here, but non-vanity goods are where I draw the line. I am pretty sure CCP is aware that there are more of us <<< than not, so... here's to wishful thinking!

Very Happy


My entire corp is on the wall watching what CCP does next. Entire Alliance of my good friend in game also on the wall watching what's it gonna be. A lot of people reading the forums but not bother to reply. Some not even reading but aware of things going on. All of these I know have a red line on vanity items only but would love to see NeX store vanish in history to move forward with subs and activities. Many real active ones with 3-4 accounts preferred to cancel subs on them and wait out to see where things will go. I will hate to lose friends in here but non-vanity is really red line for many players.

So we are not alone in this :-)

DeftCrow Redriver
Gallente
Best Path Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.08.26 19:17:00 - [49]
 

What I don't like about CCP's attempt at MT is that it removes the player from the equation and substitutes it with a passive consumer. There's nothing much we can do about CQ, NeX items or Aurum in its current iteration, i.e. indestructible clothing, solo-play CQ and non-transferable currency, so it doesn't feel like a part of Eve that emphasizes player action and interaction.

These are my lousy attempts to do something about it, thrown in just for fun.

4. Micro Transactions.
=> Split the concept of character avatars and character portraits so that you don't have to update your portrait every time you change your clothes. After that's done, make all Aurum clothing destructible. The Aurum clothing will be placed in the ship's cargohold, and Aurum clothing that is not at the player's current location will not be usable. If a player awakens from podding, that character will be wearing nothing but shorts and will have to change clothes again. Basic clothing will be available at all stations as part of all Capsuleers' privilege.
=> To compensate for the vulnerability of Aurum clothing, CCP can decrease the price of all Aurum clothing to about 3% of current price levels. (provide a refund to those who have Aurum clothing, of course)

5. Advertisements.
=> I don't think real life advertisements are appropriate to a subscription based game, but player made video advertisements (recruitment, product/service ads, etc) will be a good addition. Broadcasted to all CQ viewscreens and billboards. Time slots payable either in isk or Aurum. That will be a good use of screen space that's currently being wasted playing loops of expansion trailers.
(Well, the billboard part will be impossible until CCP finds out that buried billboard code segment.)

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.26 19:31:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 26/08/2011 19:38:30

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Quote:
Admit, CCP tried MT way already. They see it's not working too well and they see it will lead them into abyss.


wheres your source there Nostradumbass?


The direct opposite assessment seems to be the case here as per Hillmar's global email that I re-posted in another thread. I know we've read this before but it fits here too:

Quote:
After 40 hours we have already sold 52 monocles, generating more revenue than any of the other items in the store.

Quote:
Having the perspective of having done this for a decade, I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say.

Quote:
we will stay the course and not flip flop around or knee jerk react to the predictable


Pretty much says it all there

Originally by: Ranger 1

/Facepalm

The title was actually "Greed is Good?", and if you don't understand the cultural reference implied by that phrase followed by a question mark you probably shouldn't use it as an example to support your assumption.


Password is dominixevenews24 if you havent read it you might wanna before YOU start talking on a subject you are too little informed on

Quote:
Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures, the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind and greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the U.S.A


That cultural reference you mean?
well that an the fact it was called "The Gordon Gekko edition" was a bit of a hint.


Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.08.26 19:52:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: DeftCrow Redriver

5. Advertisements.
=> I don't think real life advertisements are appropriate to a subscription based game, but player made video advertisements (recruitment, product/service ads, etc) will be a good addition. Broadcasted to all CQ viewscreens and billboards. Time slots payable either in isk or Aurum. That will be a good use of screen space that's currently being wasted playing loops of expansion trailers.
(Well, the billboard part will be impossible until CCP finds out that buried billboard code segment.)


Nice idea if transactions done in ISK and there's some kind of broadcasting company/companies set up in game so it won't break the general market and bypass that NeX thing completely (or just redesign it and name something like EVETV or whatever). And prices for this advertisement can be high, ridiculously high since it will be broadcasted to all screens in CQ and that cost way more then one PLEX for sure.

CCP that idea can bring your so much desired money and won't break single rule in game. The other way around. It will add to the game.

+1 to author!

Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.08.26 20:56:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Digital Messiah on 26/08/2011 21:01:41
Originally by: Alex Sinai
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 26/08/2011 10:21:46
Originally by: Alex Sinai
I will correct your statement a little bit Digital.
I listed forms of income, you listed your opinions on them. How have you corrected this list?

Blizzard entertainment is a good example for a very successful developer who utilizes most of these.
1. Subscription: $14.99 a month
2. Expansions: having released three so far. Every expansion for world of warcraft has cost 40-50 dollars.
3. Macro Transactions: realm transfers, character re-customizations, faction changes, and race changes.
4. Micro Transactions: The Trading card game, vanity pets from blizzcon, collectors edition items, and mounts.
5. Real Life advertisement: I'm not certain if World of Warcraft uses any of these. But the old battle.net in diablo 2 and warcraft 3 used banners to help fund the servers.

Examples from another developer to this one. I am not trying to start an argument or troll. I simply wanted to get it straight that you were stating your opinion on these topics. And you were not sharing an entirely unbiased point of view.



Using your usual trick Digital?
It's so obvious already it's boring.
You can't under any circumstances compare two completely different games with vastly different player base.
It's like comparing USS Enterprise aircraft carrier and tanker. Agreed, both are ships and they sailing. But they vastly differ and any attempts to compare them is stupid.

General IQ of EVE Online players by far higher then standard IQ of population. Stop thinking you dealing with underaged or stupid people Digital. And stop giving idiotic examples. Because it's already boring.


Using your usual tricks Digital?
It's so obvious already it's boring.
You can't under any circumstances compare two completely different games, with vastly different player bases.
It's like comparing the USS Enterprise aircraft carrier and a tanker. Agreed, both are ships and they are sailing. But they vastly differ, and any attempts to compare them is stupid.

The general IQ of EVE Online players is by far higher than standard IQ of population. Stop thinking you are dealing with under aged or stupid people Digital. And stop giving idiotic examples, it is already boring.


It helps to use proper grammar when you are making an argument about IQ. Also, the services that blizzard entertainment provides, are in no way, special or simply affiliated, with world of warcraft alone. And to make a personal stab at the IQ of any other MMO because of your opinion on its company or game. Is "idiotic" to say the least. Sure now there are tons of add-on's to help with countless aspects of that game. But when it was still new, there was nothing to help with gear choices or theory crafting. Both being similar to how you would now use EFT to build a ship.

I am unsure to what tricks you are talking about. And I can not understand how you have taken a question, turned it into a statement, and then, decided it was boring and a trick? Are you so caught up in hating everything that is not in your tastes. That you will insult it without reason?
Originally by: Alex Sinai

Paying 180$ a year is more then enough to keep MMO developing and covering all the expenses associated with it. And develop one more game in process. CCP decided to develop two games. I don't see why we have to pay for that decision anyhow. It's their decision, their problems and should not concern my wallet in any way shape or form.
You are right, you never did. Which is why they are not forcing you to buy Aurum, or use NEX. Why are you so hell bent on assuming you have to take part in this? Is aurum a form of methadone to you? All joking aside, you should be happy they are expanding. Otherwise you would eventually be saying good bye to EVE.

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.08.26 21:06:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Blazde on 26/08/2011 21:10:11
In a PVE or content based/storyline MMOG that is pure entertainment - Who cares

In a PVP game where players need a level playing field to compete on - Subscriptions are the only way


What's distressing is that the whole microtransaction movement is making proper pvp MMOGs even more of a niche. CCP is sitting on that niche and doesn't seem to know it

Written Word
Written Word's Tax Haven
Posted - 2011.08.26 21:16:00 - [54]
 

Microtrasaction Talk

This is why.

Also remember that CCP Zinfidel paid a bunch of money for his spectral tiger pet thing or whatever in WoW. He (and the rest of CCP) is firmly in the mindset that "You bond with your games if you spent a lot of money on it".

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.26 21:21:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Thornat

Star Trek Online
All games that basically failed because they where not good enough and where forced into free to play with micro transactions tacked on.


Actually, I logged on STO today to check that out, theyre still sub based with heavy C-Store (NeX) involvement. They DIDNT go free to play.

Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.08.26 21:31:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Digital Messiah

It helps to use proper grammar when you are making an argument about IQ.

I am unsure to what tricks you are talking about. And I can not understand how you have taken a question, turned it into a statement, and then, decided it was boring and a trick? Are you so caught up in hating everything that is not in your tastes. That you will insult it without reason?


That trick Digital. Exactly that.
1. You state grammar. Indication of lack of argument from you. If you would think a little may be it would come to your mind that a person native language might be other then English or a typo perhaps. That also indicates your arrogance.
2. I'm puzzled why you took IQ reference as a personal insult. I merely suggested not to take granted that players of EVE Online have IQ's below average or that majority of them underaged. But judging by your reaction you getting IQ related insults on a regular basis. Answering to a post a few pages back also not really speak to your advantage. But if you feel insulted I'm sorry. No offense meant.

Originally by: Alex Sinai

Paying 180$ a year is more then enough to keep MMO developing and covering all the expenses associated with it. And develop one more game in process. CCP decided to develop two games. I don't see why we have to pay for that decision anyhow. It's their decision, their problems and should not concern my wallet in any way shape or form.

Originally by: Digital Messiah

You are right, you never did. Which is why they are not forcing you to buy Aurum, or use NEX. Why are you so hell bent on assuming you have to take part in this? Is aurum a form of methadone to you? All joking aside, you should be happy they are expanding. Otherwise you would eventually be saying good bye to EVE.


That statement of yours entirely incorrect. We all did finance these two games in development merely by paying our subscriptions. And they are forcing Aurum on me by giving me some amount of it that I never asked and aggressively marketing their NeX MT store that I never wanted. That is intrusive advertisement that should not by any means be present in a subscription game. They breaking the rules and they have their butthurt for that.
Why should I be happy about "their expanding" if the game I pay monthly subscription which yearly cost me more then 3 AAA titles expanding the way neither me nor many other players don't want. I should not and I am not.
I perfectly understand your desire for me to say good bye to EVE but you will have to stick with me until CCP introduces first game changing item in their NeX MT store. I'm afraid you will be saying good bye to about half of EVE Online population then.

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.08.26 21:50:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Written Word
Microtrasaction Talk

This is why

I highly recommend everyone who considers themselves a gamer watch this, especially if you think microtransactions are 'okay'

This is your enemy and ignorance is allowing him to win

MsValentineWiggin
Posted - 2011.08.27 00:09:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Thornat
Microtransactions and free to play models are the first sign of a failed game.


That certainly used to be the case. After a couple of the companies did it and saw their revenue increase when they went F2P, it is becoming increasingly common. It is no longer just the end-game for dying games. Recently, WoT/WoWp/WoBs seem successful. Everything comes in cycles; right now MT are trendy and unless you are a large MMO ( WoW, Rift, TOR ), I think $15/month will be the exception not the rule.

Originally by: Cailais
I dont think you can easily divorce the nature of the game from its funding method.
The 'Harsh' Universe looks substantially less harsh if you can $ spend your way out of trouble.


This has been EVE for several years. Lost in EvE podcast even had a commercial that was "done something stupid and got your freighter blown up? replace it with plex from ..." And the universe was less harsh for the gentleman who spent $100,000 of RL rubles for his alliance.

Originally by: Sullen Skoung

Originally by: Digital Messiah

5. Real Life advertisement: I'm not certain if World of Warcraft uses any of these. But the old battle.net in diablo 2 and warcraft 3 used banners to help fund the servers.


you never saw any of the Mr T commercials... Verne Troyer commercials, William Shatner commercials, Ozzy Ozbourne commercials...?



I believe this was referring to something different. The trend in TV and movies is product placement is increasingly more important than commercials. Blizzard did a promo where you went to an OOG Mountain Dew web site where you got a robot pet that, using fuel earned from that web site, you could have inconsequential pet battles with others in game. The analogy here is what if there were a named cosmetic-only ship skin e.g. Prius(all green?) or M3 (Bavarian white-blue), made by players from a BPC you earned at the corporate sponsor's web site? Viagra brand boosters? Or the same ingame insurance was sold by the renamed ING insurance store? OTOH, what company would really want to be associated with/appeal to the typical EVE player? Bail bondsmen is the only one that comes to mind.

If you don't follow gaming news, Blizzard got some buzz with the Diablo 3 announcement that not only was their a way to purchase items in game for RL$, but their will be a way to eventually get your ingame profits converted into RL$ credits to spend with Blizzard or eventually for you to receive RL$ cash. The TBD-but-initially-seems-clever thing is that Blizzard does not sell anything, they just take a commission %. So nothing is unfair or gouging - another player set the price.

Originally by: Alex Sinai

Paying 180$ a year is more then enough to keep MMO developing and covering all the expenses associated with it.
...
concentrate on cash cow that brings you money.

The number of $180 subscribers is at least as important: EA has said that if they have a million subscribers then they will lose money on TOR. My understanding is two million would be a success and 3 is the goal. IDK but think I read that at current subscriptions EVE is mildly profitable. It certainly would not be at 250k subscribers without downsizing some developers while 500k would

To correct your business terminology, a firm never wants to concentrate or invest in a "cash cow" - cows are to be milked (see what we did there?) and the proceeds invested elsewhere in higher growth/ROI opportunities.

Originally by: Blazde

In a PVP game where players need a level playing field to compete on - Subscriptions are the only way


Makes sense; the problem is that the market is very definitely going the other way. WhOl is the latest to join LoL and the rest. Even if you discount the WoT five million "subscribers",(with WoWp and WoBs announced), it is certainly successful.

Tuggboat
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.27 00:20:00 - [59]
 

What I want is for them to use those new 3d printers to sculpt an avatar of myself So I could put it on my desk

Narisa Bithon
Caldari
The Motley Crew Reborn
Posted - 2011.08.27 00:33:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Digital Messiah
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 26/08/2011 10:21:46
Originally by: Alex Sinai
I will correct your statement a little bit Digital.
I listed forms of income, you listed your opinions on them. How have you corrected this list?

Blizzard entertainment is a good example for a very successful developer who utilizes most of these.
1. Subscription: $14.99 a month
2. Expansions: having released three so far. Every expansion for world of warcraft has cost 40-50 dollars.
3. Macro Transactions: realm transfers, character re-customizations, faction changes, and race changes.
4. Micro Transactions: The Trading card game, vanity pets from blizzcon, collectors edition items, and mounts.
5. Real Life advertisement: I'm not certain if World of Warcraft uses any of these. But the old battle.net in diablo 2 and warcraft 3 used banners to help fund the servers.

Examples from another developer to this one. I am not trying to start an argument or troll. I simply wanted to get it straight that you were stating your opinion on these topics. And you were not sharing an entirely unbiased point of view.



u seem the miss the point though with regard to micro transactions

1. micro transactions in eve online would kill off both trade & industry, and thus the majority of alt account subs would be lost to ccp.

2. most eve players are mature adults not teenagers... insta gratification gets tiring fast for us.

3. you would remove all sense of achievement in the game if it was pay 2 win cos only rich ppl could click the i-win button (aka credit card) when ever they felt like it.... thus causing more subs to be cancelled.

World of Warcraft is a very very different game to Eve Online in pretty much every aspect.


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