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John Ryuk
Posted - 2011.08.24 02:16:00 - [1]
 

This question is in regards to Cynosural Field in Wormhole Space and is taken from a context in the Rules so here first of all Definitions.
Cynosural field- also known colloquially as a "cyno", is a cosmic anomaly that acts as a pseudo-gravity well which connects spact time.
Wormhole-is a hypothetical topological feature of spacetime that would be, fundamentally, a "shortcut" through spacetime

Now, you state that you can not use a Cyno field in WH Space, however WH space is still normal space in space time. A Cyno field by it's own definition is a artifical wormhole that connects twos to places in time. So in effect unless you can give me a reason as to why you can not connect two places even those they are far away , traveling time is not considered when you bring to points in timespace to the same point for travel. and as we know spacetime contains a compact region Ω, and if the topology of Ω is of the form Ω ~ R x Σ, where Σ is a three-manifold of the nontrivial topology
Now with that being said, there is no sciencetific reason that you can not use a cyno field in WH space, I do belive in order to do it you need to train cyno skills to lv 5 and it should take 6 months to train it as the tactical advantage it brings.

Source: Roommate has a Ph.D in Theoretical Physics and Applied ScienceLaughing

daddys helper
Posted - 2011.08.24 02:49:00 - [2]
 

only problem is a cyno doesn't have the range to get to a w-space region

ever try and auto pilot out of a WH? 239455094 jumps to get to null?
feh, so much for science

John Ryuk
Posted - 2011.08.24 02:55:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: John Ryuk on 24/08/2011 02:55:59
So much for your understanding of the Universe, if you paid more attention in class you would know that a cyno field being a artifical wormhole connects two places in space together at the same time. Diagram time...

point a ---------> point b
|__________________________________|
normal travel
a->b
|0|
wormhole travel.

as you are connecting two places in time via subspace there is no actual travel to be had. booyahhh

EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research
Posted - 2011.08.24 04:24:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: John Ryuk
WH space is still normal space in space time. A Cyno field by it's own definition is a artifical wormhole that connects twos to places in time.

How did you find this out?

John Ryuk
Posted - 2011.08.24 04:35:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: EdwardNardella
Originally by: John Ryuk
WH space is still normal space in space time. A Cyno field by it's own definition is a artifical wormhole that connects twos to places in time.

How did you find this out?

Roommate holds a Ph.D in physics and applied science, Makes things like this easy lol.

Simetraz
Posted - 2011.08.24 04:47:00 - [6]
 

CCP doesn't want people to settle permanently in WH space (ie have no reason to leave).

If they did they would allow.
SOV / Cyno's / ICE actually exist in WH space etc etc etc

Until they change there minds, well that ends that.

Personally I always thought it would have been cool if they created some constellations of normal space in WH space.
Complete with gates and ICe and well no NPC station but you could claim sov there.
And no local.

Each constellation would be isolated from the other and the rest of the universe by worm holes.
And make sure no WH in those constellations connects to the rest of normal space.
But you could get a connection to another constellation and obviously WH space.
Make sense ?

Either way I had hoped someone would find something like this out there.
But I guess not so oh well.




Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.08.24 04:53:00 - [7]
 

jump drive needs fuel, and u cant half ass a jump u would need 10000000 freighter loads of fuel to jump into the nearest wh system

Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Posted - 2011.08.24 04:58:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Messoroz on 24/08/2011 04:58:28
Originally by: Simetraz
CCP doesn't want people to settle permanently in WH space (ie have no reason to leave).




Too bad they ARE giving us reasons not to leave.

-Null style small gang warfare of the old days
-No supers
-No massive blobs
-No supers
-Lots of good isk
-No supers
-Nullsecs are the most common wormholes throughout all classes and so it makes a perfect home for corps looking to find null pew every day somewhere different
-No supers
-Actual meaningful logistics and effort rewarded.

Seriously wspace is the true eve end game intended or not. Null can go screw itself.

Ai Mei
Starfish Operating Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.24 05:23:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Messoroz
Edited by: Messoroz on 24/08/2011 04:58:28
Originally by: Simetraz
CCP doesn't want people to settle permanently in WH space (ie have no reason to leave).




Too bad they ARE giving us reasons not to leave.

-Null style small gang warfare of the old days
-No supers
-No massive blobs
-No supers
-Lots of good isk
-No supers
-Nullsecs are the most common wormholes throughout all classes and so it makes a perfect home for corps looking to find null pew every day somewhere different
-No supers
-Actual meaningful logistics and effort rewarded.

Seriously wspace is the true eve end game intended or not. Null can go screw itself.


Actually, if you find a c6 with a low sec or 0.0 exit, the mass of the wh can support a naked nano nyx to jump through it. But emphasize this only applies to class 6's.

Mass of a nyx 1,615,625,000 kg

Wormhole exit label k329 to 0.0 space can support a jump mass of 1,800,000,000 kg.

so....... umm yeah. Im unleashing a can of worms on that one.

Fox Starrunner
Caldari
Dark Circle Enforcement
Posted - 2011.08.24 05:41:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: John Ryuk
This question is in regards to Cynosural Field in Wormhole Space



Your playing Submarines Online™ and your worried about the physics of wormholes? ugh

I remember a years ago (wish I could find it) someone did the science guru thing and determined eve's "space", if applied to our knowledge of physics, is some-kind-of viscous oily substance for ships to be traveling at m/s instead of 10's of km/s and always returning to the same plane when stopped and all the other "OMG REAL PHYSICS DON'T WORK IN EVE" stuff people complain about.

Wormholes in games shouldn't be a priority for you.


Jack Tronic
Posted - 2011.08.24 05:46:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Jack Tronic on 24/08/2011 05:47:53
Edited by: Jack Tronic on 24/08/2011 05:46:56
Originally by: Ai Mei
Originally by: Messoroz
Edited by: Messoroz on 24/08/2011 04:58:28
Originally by: Simetraz
CCP doesn't want people to settle permanently in WH space (ie have no reason to leave).




Too bad they ARE giving us reasons not to leave.

-Null style small gang warfare of the old days
-No supers
-No massive blobs
-No supers
-Lots of good isk
-No supers
-Nullsecs are the most common wormholes throughout all classes and so it makes a perfect home for corps looking to find null pew every day somewhere different
-No supers
-Actual meaningful logistics and effort rewarded.

Seriously wspace is the true eve end game intended or not. Null can go screw itself.


Actually, if you find a c6 with a low sec or 0.0 exit, the mass of the wh can support a naked nano nyx to jump through it. But emphasize this only applies to class 6's.

Mass of a nyx 1,615,625,000 kg

Wormhole exit label k329 to 0.0 space can support a jump mass of 1,800,000,000 kg.

so....... umm yeah. Im unleashing a can of worms on that one.


Guess what, these wormholes aren't in active rotation, i.e. they don't spawn because they have mass regeneration properties. If these ever spawned, then Aharm, RNK, CCRES and others would have their home systems entirely fortified by now. The only low/null roaming statics that spawn are C140s and Z142s same as C5s.

C6 holes to all other classes are also mass restricted to normal caps at most, so a mom would never be able to leave.

AnzacPaul
Perkone
Posted - 2011.08.24 05:56:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: John Ryuk
Edited by: John Ryuk on 24/08/2011 02:55:59
So much for your understanding of the Universe, if you paid more attention in class you would know that a cyno field being a artifical wormhole connects two places in space together at the same time. Diagram time...

point a ---------> point b
|__________________________________|
normal travel
a->b
|0|
wormhole travel.

as you are connecting two places in time via subspace there is no actual travel to be had. booyahhh



So if cyno's are artificial wormholes and connect 2 points with no distance travelled, why do all ships have a jump range?

Shouldn't they be able to jum........ OH WAIT i nearly forgot it's just a game.

And the reason you flamed that guy above about going to get laid is because he's right.

inb4 regular trolls

The Offerer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.24 06:48:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: John Ryuk

Now, you state that you can not use a Cyno field in WH Space, however WH space is still normal space in space time.


Tell your roommate that if you travel through a wormhole, you could be traveling through time as well. That's why there's no guarantee that even two adjacent W-Space systems exist at the same time.Wink

CCP Navigator


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.24 11:40:00 - [14]
 

Thread cleaned of trolling and off topic comments.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.24 11:57:00 - [15]
 

You can't connect to wormholes because you need to know where you're connecting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to lite a cyno you pretty well need to know where you are and where you're going. Wormholes, you don't really know where you are. You don't even know if you're in the same galaxy.

It's like being in Boston and going to visit a friend in New York. You have the address, you go visit them. Now, imagine trying to go visit someone that only has a street address, but no city, state or even country.




Tom Gerard
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.08.24 12:07:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Tom Gerard on 24/08/2011 12:37:37

Reasoning:

If they allowed Cyno within WH, any zone in EVE capable of supporting a cyno would be 1 jump away. EXAMPLE:

NPC 0.0 System 61 jumps away from target system, but it has a WH.
Jump to WH.
From the WH system you can then cyno up in the target system.
Jump to Target System.


Work Around:
Now a very cool "clear skies" themed response to this would be "Cynos are suicide to cast in WHs" basically spawn a few sleeper dreads, and 30 to 50 support ships at optimals off the cyno.

This would occur during both arrival and departure, so if departing under hostile conditions you could sacrifice your carrier for a Pyrrhic victory.

It would also add A LOT to the "fear factor" of dealing with highly intelligent murderous robots from pre-humanity.


"ShockedShockedShockedWHO THE HELL LIT A CYNO!?!!"ShockedShockedShocked"

Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.08.24 12:20:00 - [17]
 

Perhaps the sleepers jam cynos?

And a cyno is just a beacon that capitals use to lock on to the destination co-ordinates, its the jump drive is what actually makes the jump from A to B.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.24 12:25:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Tom Gerard
"ShockedShockedShockedWHO THE HELL LIT A CYNO!?!!"ShockedShockedShocked"


I lol'd!

IIRC - WH's are indeterminate in location, as the above poster said, you have to know where your starting from and where your destination is to use a Cyno.

Raid'En
Posted - 2011.08.24 12:26:00 - [19]
 

to make a jump you need to know where you are. but you don't know where unknown space is, you don't have the coordinates. so your ship computer can't calculate the way.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.08.24 12:35:00 - [20]
 

Personally I think they could have left the cyno functionality as it is in wormhole space, you can't use it anyway and would just burn fuel to light the cyno. Using the CCP EVE map dump one can see the location of both normal systems and wormhole systems.

Using this map dump one can see that wormhole space is a lot further from normal space than any cap ship can jump, so you could never jump cap ships between normal space and wormhole space anyway.

It would be theoretically possible to jump cap ships between wormhole systems, as they are distributed similar to the systems in normal space. However you would have big problems in finding two systems that are close enough to jump between. And if you want to chain two jumps it's even harder, so good luck in trying to invade someones wormhole system with capitals if you don't by some fluke happen to be next door to begin with.

Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2011.08.24 14:52:00 - [21]
 

1. You can light a cyno in w-space
2. The systems in w-space are often close together you can get the distance with the fleet window
3. If you try to jump to the cyno in range it tells you something like "can't find the beacon in new eden". can't remember the exact words, but we tried it.

Now my guess (and its all fiction anyway) is that the jump drives need the network provided by the gates in new eden to jump to a cyno. Same goes for the local channel. So why are there the other channels and why can i still communicate at all in w-space you ask? Magic!

Ampoliros
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.08.24 15:23:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Ai Mei
Actually, if you find a c6 with a low sec or 0.0 exit, the mass of the wh can support a naked nano nyx to jump through it. But emphasize this only applies to class 6's.

Mass of a nyx 1,615,625,000 kg

Wormhole exit label k329 to 0.0 space can support a jump mass of 1,800,000,000 kg.

so....... umm yeah. Im unleashing a can of worms on that one.


k329s are probably k-space to k-space wormholes, they don't exist in c6 space

Oscasre
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.24 15:30:00 - [23]
 


Quote:
Actually, if you find a c6 with a low sec or 0.0 exit, the mass of the wh can support a naked nano nyx to jump through it. But emphasize this only applies to class 6's.

Mass of a nyx 1,615,625,000 kg

Wormhole exit label k329 to 0.0 space can support a jump mass of 1,800,000,000 kg.

so....... umm yeah. Im unleashing a can of worms on that one.


k329s are probably k-space to k-space wormholes, they don't exist in c6 space


As he said .... K-Space to K-Space directly.

But let me know the system you have your naked Nyx in and I will help you test the theory :)

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.24 15:58:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: John Ryuk
Originally by: EdwardNardella
Originally by: John Ryuk
WH space is still normal space in space time. A Cyno field by it's own definition is a artifical wormhole that connects twos to places in time.

How did you find this out?

Roommate holds a Ph.D in physics and applied science, Makes things like this easy lol.


Look at you trying to use physics to justify content and features in a science fiction game. Laughing

Dasola
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:15:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Dasola on 24/08/2011 16:17:01
Hmm quotet wrong message somehow? Forum server crapping up too?

Ammzi
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:17:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: daddys helper
only problem is a cyno doesn't have the range to get to a w-space region

ever try and auto pilot out of a WH? 239455094 jumps to get to null?
feh, so much for science


You're wrong. Many wormhole systems exist that are so close to each other that if you lit a cyno, you COULD jump from 1 system to another.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:22:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 24/08/2011 16:22:11



Yea, the wormholes are actually clustered together in space by their type or something, I'm sure someone could post up the diagram again if we asked nicely for it, and also explain it a LOT better than I.

There is a three dimensional plotted graph of each wormhole by type (Wolf, Ranier, or w/e it all is) and estimated location, and it makes this funky looking globular mass of wormholes by type spread out in a cluster of isolated blobs.

It is really neat actually, I enjoyed the thread where people were talking about it.

So cyno between two wormholes of the same types but different classes, why not? but from regular space to wormhole space, or different types to different types, not enough fuel in the world with the current cynosural mechanic.

Lors Dornick
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:41:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Ammzi
Originally by: daddys helper
only problem is a cyno doesn't have the range to get to a w-space region

ever try and auto pilot out of a WH? 239455094 jumps to get to null?
feh, so much for science


You're wrong. Many wormhole systems exist that are so close to each other that if you lit a cyno, you COULD jump from 1 system to another.


Indeed they are.

I think the issue at hand isn't physics, it's gameplay.

The idea with w-space systems was that they can only be accessed by scanning down w-holes, and they respawned at regular intervals.

Now, every system, both k and w, have a fixed 3D location in space and some people where clever enough to extract this data from the static DB and "map" the un-mapped (k-space) systems.

That allowed equally clever people to bypass the intended game mechanic of only being accessible with the use of worm holes by jumping to and or from a system within jump range.

CCP obviously decided that while they like clever abuse of the game, they wanted to keep their w-space system as intended and gave the sleepers cyno jammers.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:50:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: John Ryuk
This question is in regards to Cynosural Field in Wormhole Space and is taken from a context in the Rules so here first of all Definitions.
Cynosural field- also known colloquially as a "cyno", is a cosmic anomaly that acts as a pseudo-gravity well which connects spact time.
Wormhole-is a hypothetical topological feature of spacetime that would be, fundamentally, a "shortcut" through spacetime

Now, you state that you can not use a Cyno field in WH Space, however WH space is still normal space in space time. A Cyno field by it's own definition is a artifical wormhole that connects twos to places in time. So in effect unless you can give me a reason as to why you can not connect two places even those they are far away , traveling time is not considered when you bring to points in timespace to the same point for travel. and as we know spacetime contains a compact region Ω, and if the topology of Ω is of the form Ω ~ R x Σ, where Σ is a three-manifold of the nontrivial topology
Now with that being said, there is no sciencetific reason that you can not use a cyno field in WH space, I do belive in order to do it you need to train cyno skills to lv 5 and it should take 6 months to train it as the tactical advantage it brings.

Source: Roommate has a Ph.D in Theoretical Physics and Applied ScienceLaughing


I as well have a Ph.D. in Theoretical Physics, and I am personally more disturbed by space being treated as a liquid (aka submarine physics). As to the Cyno not being useable, you need to know where you are going, and presumably the stars visible in w-space indicate that we aren't in Kansas anymore.

AG

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.08.24 17:42:00 - [30]
 

Null supercap pilot alt detected. Sorry man, but don't try to stick your supercap in our mashed potatoes, mmmkay?


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