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Shepard Book
Posted - 2011.08.25 15:58:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Si Omega
I couldn't rat all day in null



That says why you are in empire. I can not wait for local to be removed and I hope they do not give into the cloak whiners.

Akita has some decent points. It is just a shame some large alliances have RMT in thier leadership.

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.08.25 17:17:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Ira Theos

In other words... they want YOU to assume the role of a human "bot" in fleet... (seems consistent with the Bot Lords nature to me).

1. you don't look as someone with 6 years experience of game (not only this but other posts).
2. ever heard about regular army? And why people started to use it?

Bklyn 1
Posted - 2011.08.25 17:21:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Ethan Bejorn
Are you Obama?


+1

Now we know why he's neglecting his job as president, he's addicted to Eve

Nick Bete
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.08.25 18:58:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Nick Bete
Exactly right. This is why I and so many others want nothing to do with 0.0 and why CCP's efforts to "encourage" players to go there will ultimately fail. No one wants to pay $15 a month (or more) to be a peasant serving at the whims of a small group of overlords, even if the rewards were shared (which, of course, they're not). This is especially true if one is more interested in the industrial side of the game. Indy characters are viewed with flat out hatred by many in 0.0.

Until the attitudes of the players change no amount of tinkering with game mechanics will have have any effect. I don't see any way for CCP to change human nature.

Well look at you not knowing what you're talking about.


Except for indy characters...**** those guys.


Try again Einstein. This is an alt. I've been in Eve 4 years on different characters in all kinds of corps and alliances. I know what I'm talking about and even if I didn't isn't it funny how so many others have the same experience?

Go back and get some more of Mitten's kool-aid. Come back with an intelligent argument when you actually have the capability to think for yourself.

Ira Theos
Posted - 2011.08.25 19:45:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Miss Rabblt
Originally by: Ira Theos

In other words... they want YOU to assume the role of a human "bot" in fleet... (seems consistent with the Bot Lords nature to me).

1. you don't look as someone with 6 years experience of game (not only this but other posts).
2. ever heard about regular army? And why people started to use it?

**********************

This statement coming from an Alt I can't even find ingame....

You gotta love how the Lords and the Lemmings come in to defend the the "Shearing of the Sheep"...
The Lemmings are too stupid to know they are being juiced like oranges...
and the Lords are too embarassed to use their mains to support "The Big Lie"...


Ira Theos
Posted - 2011.08.25 19:50:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Ira Theos on 25/08/2011 20:01:38
Originally by: Thur Barbek
Originally by: Ira Theos
...
Hell No... if they can't pay me three times the price in Jita... they can't have it.

Rolling Eyes

I admit I might of assumed too much, but i think you'll agree that a lot of the people on the forums are relativity new to 0.0, if they have been at all, when they start complaining.

Also, to the OP, I have seen a few corps that try to distribute wealth. One method i've seen used was; a player got a point for each hour of an op they were in. At the end of each month (can be whatever timeframe), they took 50% of the profits the corp wallet made during that time and distributed it to each member according to accumulated points. The other 50% was reinvested into corp assets. This particular corp happened to be an industry corp, so most of the ops were mining. But the method can still roughly be applied to CTA's and pvp ops. The only downside to this method of distribution is that the leadership has to spend some time keeping attendance and some additional bookkeeping. It would also be more labor intensive as the corp/alliance grows.

For alliances the same system can be used, but give points to the corps instead of individuals. Then it would be the corp's responsibility to further distribute the wealth.

More possible ways members could earn points: pvp kills, ships built at cost for members, JF runs, BP research for corp...





********

Your ideas about pilot reward sytems are good ones, but wouldn't it just be easier if CCP would provide a "salary and bonus" system for Corporations.. They could even include a "clock in" feature to automatically account for CTA participation... and what about a Corporate Insurance feature for ship reimbursement? The Corporate share system could be used if CCP gave that a bit of polish. There is so much that could be done pretty simply to eliminate the arbitrary nature of profit distributions in zero to incentivize new participants. The big thing is to make it systematic through corporate mechanics and not dependent on arbitrary personal judgement. Yes the CEOs and Directors can set the policies, but once set and understood by the pilots, they will necessarily see "the spice flow" into their wallets.

Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Fleet of Doom
Posted - 2011.08.25 19:54:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Si Omega
Edited by: Si Omega on 24/08/2011 00:51:08
Here's a wild thought, presented as a potential solution to get more people into null and restrict alliance sizes, fleet sizes and make PvP fun.

I flew for 2 alliances in null. CTA this, CTA that. Kill this, kill that. My financial reward. NIL.

Now I respect that alliances have sov and infrastructure bills etc. but where the hell does all the profit actually go? I never fought for me (which might give me an incentive to go back to null and fight), I fought and someone else got the isk!

So I went back to empire to make MY money. I couldn't rat all day in null because 1) it got boring or 2) so lameass AFK'er neut logs in system and goes to bed (another thing they need to fix imho).

So consider this. Alliance funds (AFTER COSTS) are distributed automatically to corp/alliance members.

Potential benefits

1) Alliances would not (or more specifically could not) fund SRF. This will allow more personal choices in ships and subsequent fits. This will force better strategy PvP for FC's and make what *I* trained for much more fun. As it stands, you have to find an alliance that fits what YOU are trained to fly or you have to fly on a set of substandard skills.

2) Hard work and team effort, whether through defense of space or harvesting of resources will see the profits distributed among members.

3) Too many members in corp/alliance will either 1, reduce income and/or 2, make for stronger teamwork. Slackers and casuals get booted the usual way.

4) Caps/super purchases moves to the hands of the individual. This makes them personally more valuable and makes them less likely to be deployed like a $2 toy.

5) Added: Of course, it would also inhibit the ability to RMT from corp/alliance accounts without collusion.

I'm sure there are other benefits inherent. This is just a discussion piece that doesn't require nerfing caps, high etc. etc...




wealth distribution is and shall always be as thus:

Folks with lots of real life money buy plex and sell for isk.

Folks with lots of real life time grind lots and have lots of isk thusly.

Folks that are clever enough Scam other folks and have lots of isk.

Folks that are intelligent enough trade ( oftentimes @ Jita, but not always ) and have lots of isk.

Folks that are charismatic enough lead vast corporations or alliances and are generally in a position to have lots of isk. ( even if they don't always get to spend it on themselves )

The rest ( apologies if I've missed a category ) are simply fodder for our common mistress that is Eve.

Ira Theos
Posted - 2011.08.25 20:08:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Ira Theos on 25/08/2011 20:21:25
Edited by: Ira Theos on 25/08/2011 20:11:00
Originally by: Ris Dnalor
Originally by: Si Omega
Edited by: Si Omega on 24/08/2011 00:51:08
Here's a wild thought, presented as a potential solution to get more people into null and restrict alliance sizes, fleet sizes and make PvP fun.

I flew for 2 alliances in null. CTA this, CTA that. Kill this, kill that. My financial reward. NIL.

Now I respect that alliances have sov and infrastructure bills etc. but where the hell does all the profit actually go? I never fought for me (which might give me an incentive to go back to null and fight), I fought and someone else got the isk!

So I went back to empire to make MY money. I couldn't rat all day in null because 1) it got boring or 2) so lameass AFK'er neut logs in system and goes to bed (another thing they need to fix imho).

So consider this. Alliance funds (AFTER COSTS) are distributed automatically to corp/alliance members.

Potential benefits

1) Alliances would not (or more specifically could not) fund SRF. This will allow more personal choices in ships and subsequent fits. This will force better strategy PvP for FC's and make what *I* trained for much more fun. As it stands, you have to find an alliance that fits what YOU are trained to fly or you have to fly on a set of substandard skills.

2) Hard work and team effort, whether through defense of space or harvesting of resources will see the profits distributed among members.

3) Too many members in corp/alliance will either 1, reduce income and/or 2, make for stronger teamwork. Slackers and casuals get booted the usual way.

4) Caps/super purchases moves to the hands of the individual. This makes them personally more valuable and makes them less likely to be deployed like a $2 toy.

5) Added: Of course, it would also inhibit the ability to RMT from corp/alliance accounts without collusion.

I'm sure there are other benefits inherent. This is just a discussion piece that doesn't require nerfing caps, high etc. etc...




wealth distribution is and shall always be as thus:

Folks with lots of real life money buy plex and sell for isk.

Folks with lots of real life time grind lots and have lots of isk thusly.

Folks that are clever enough Scam other folks and have lots of isk.

Folks that are intelligent enough trade ( oftentimes @ Jita, but not always ) and have lots of isk.

Folks that are charismatic enough lead vast corporations or alliances and are generally in a position to have lots of isk. ( even if they don't always get to spend it on themselves )

The rest ( apologies if I've missed a category ) are simply fodder for our common mistress that is Eve.

*****

While I gree with your observations, I disagree with the notion that the distribution must always remain this way in zero corporations. It is only this way now due to the sorry lacking of CCP provided corporate mechanics systems. Once this is cured... much will change... including larger participation in zero. All this requires is CCP's attention to game mechanics. Another interesting side effect of this reform would be the likely death of Botting/RMT Corporations and Alliances as the formal accounting for the profits would be transparent to the pilots and could not be hidden as it is now.

March rabbit
Posted - 2011.08.26 07:44:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Ira Theos
Originally by: Miss Rabblt
Originally by: Ira Theos

In other words... they want YOU to assume the role of a human "bot" in fleet... (seems consistent with the Bot Lords nature to me).

1. you don't look as someone with 6 years experience of game (not only this but other posts).
2. ever heard about regular army? And why people started to use it?

**********************

This statement coming from an Alt I can't even find ingame....


...because you don't read the forums. Elsewere you would know that Miss Rabbit is my alt. However real guys don't read before post do they? Very Happy

Originally by: Ira Theos

You gotta love how the Lords and the Lemmings come in to defend the the "Shearing of the Sheep"...
The Lemmings are too stupid to know they are being juiced like oranges...
and the Lords are too embarassed to use their mains to support "The Big Lie"...


...that's why you go to USA or EU army and go fight countryes "which don't have democracy". And cry loadly "hurray, we killed childrens of Caddafi! Great day for whole human world!!!"

just get out to your kindergarten until you know how to get information from the world outside of your butt

Sandslinger
NorCorp Enterprise
No Holes Barred
Posted - 2011.08.26 11:26:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Sandslinger on 26/08/2011 11:29:31
Edited by: Sandslinger on 26/08/2011 11:27:49
At first I read your post and thought Oh great another ISK carebear that just doesn't get it with with opinions on EvE

Then I read it all again and realised you do have one very good point. However the system as you describe is not possible to put into effect it will either be worked around simply causing more grind for directors that are already burdened with the access system in eve.

In my opinion (and many others) the Moon gold is a untenable situation and needs to be redeemed anyways.

massive passive income from holding space regardless of wether it is utilized is a blight on the game. And is a big contributor to why massive coalitions and vast tracts of unusued (but claimed) space is the norm.

anyways having said all that. Eve definitively requires some method of payment division.

I run a wormhole corp and we have created a advanced version of your described system by out of game means.

the problem/difficulties I see with your solution is as follows.

Nr 1 Alliances will simply use holding corps, much the same way that alliances have alt alliances/corps for RMT.

Nr 2 : The system would require several accounts to be tied into eachother, otherwise you would simply have people joining alliances with 30 toons and getting payment as such.

Nr 3 Dead meat has to be trimmed constantly, this is a major workload for 0,0 directors. with your system failure to do this will on top of everything else cripple alliances as their wallets becomes dry husks.

Using the argument that this will force alliances/corps to become smaller thus less blobs is not very well considered. The effect will just be that corps/alliances will consists only of pvpers. all cyno alts etc etc will be in holding corps set blue.

Carebears will be completely scorned from 0,0 except as renters. Not that this isn't the case today but with your system they would be even more scorned.
(Not saying this is a bad thing but I'm not sure CCP is ready for the additional organic manure storm)

Overall it's nice idea but it would never have the effects you propose it would.

But definitively +1 to CCP creating a proper payment system for pvp/mining/sites ingame.

It is ridiculous how much Coding time/Api pulls and manual labour, actually trying to run a Eve corporation like a real corporation takes in eve. It's second job material.

I've often thought EvE should have a log in screen called second job for anyone with directors status.



PS1 to the guy saying move into a high end wh to make isk because it's no work. This is basically rubbish. if you want no "work" either grind lvl4's or become a renter in 0,0. in wormholes someone is definitively doing "work" to keep it all running.

PS2 March rabbit there just isn't any need for that stuff. please no one be dumb enough to respond to him now





Alxea
Posted - 2011.08.26 11:36:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Si Omega
Edited by: Si Omega on 24/08/2011 00:51:08
Here's a wild thought, presented as a potential solution to get more people into null and restrict alliance sizes, fleet sizes and make PvP fun.

I flew for 2 alliances in null. CTA this, CTA that. Kill this, kill that. My financial reward. NIL.

Now I respect that alliances have sov and infrastructure bills etc. but where the hell does all the profit actually go? I never fought for me (which might give me an incentive to go back to null and fight), I fought and someone else got the isk!

So I went back to empire to make MY money. I couldn't rat all day in null because 1) it got boring or 2) so lameass AFK'er neut logs in system and goes to bed (another thing they need to fix imho).

So consider this. Alliance funds (AFTER COSTS) are distributed automatically to corp/alliance members.

Potential benefits

1) Alliances would not (or more specifically could not) fund SRF. This will allow more personal choices in ships and subsequent fits. This will force better strategy PvP for FC's and make what *I* trained for much more fun. As it stands, you have to find an alliance that fits what YOU are trained to fly or you have to fly on a set of substandard skills.

2) Hard work and team effort, whether through defense of space or harvesting of resources will see the profits distributed among members.

3) Too many members in corp/alliance will either 1, reduce income and/or 2, make for stronger teamwork. Slackers and casuals get booted the usual way.

4) Caps/super purchases moves to the hands of the individual. This makes them personally more valuable and makes them less likely to be deployed like a $2 toy.

5) Added: Of course, it would also inhibit the ability to RMT from corp/alliance accounts without collusion.

I'm sure there are other benefits inherent. This is just a discussion piece that doesn't require nerfing caps, high etc. etc...


So because the risk in 0.0 became too high for the reward of isk you hug highsec and complain how it should be less risky in 0.0 because of cloaks. Nice cloaky mask for your troll face you have under there. Rolling Eyes Too bad some of us can see troll through deception. Wink

CCP Navigator


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.26 13:07:00 - [72]
 

Off topic political nonsense removed.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.08.26 13:58:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 26/08/2011 14:00:11
Originally by: Si Omega


1) Alliances would not (or more specifically could not) fund SRF. This will allow more personal choices in ships and subsequent fits. This will force better strategy PvP for FC's and make what *I* trained for much more fun. As it stands, you have to find an alliance that fits what YOU are trained to fly or you have to fly on a set of substandard skills.



All of your post is terrible, but this part is especially wrong. FCs dont insist on specific ships and fits because they hate your individuality and creativity, but because it has been proved over and over that unified fleet doctrines are hugely superior to your concept of CTRL-A-Cats

EDIT: Also, god, it's not at all hard to make ISK in 0.0 if you're prepared to take a few risks. If you're not prepared to take risks, what are you doing in 0.0?

Jenn aSide
Posted - 2011.08.26 14:21:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Jenn aSide on 26/08/2011 14:25:38
Originally by: mechtech

Yeah, it's funny to me that 0.0 grunts spend 100s of billions of isk in resources fighting for space that's what, 1.5x as better for isk making as perfectly safe high sec? Maybe it actually is fun to some people...




Amen. I recently had a SICK experience. I'm in a null sec alliance, we recently fought a in a big war and ended up with a pretty nice region. I have my ratting alt with a nicely fit faction BS grinding sanctums. Nice income, especially with the occasional escalation where I sometimes end up getting some juicy Gist loot.

Well, our corp ceo started an Alt corp for us to put toons in for high sec incursions. JESUS CHRIST. Doing incursions I made enough isk to pay for 4 accounts with plex in LESS THAN HALF THE TIME it takes grinding sanctums in null sec...all in the safety of High Sec.

Other than the occasional scary warp scramming incursion rat on a gate, it's perfectly safe....and wrong, DEAD wrong. Later we had an incursion in null sec near our space and found the rewards were only slightly better.

WTF mate? I know CCP is scrared that improving null sec will help entrenched "old player" null sec interests, but this is just freaking insane. I no longer have a ratting alt in null sec, I just do safer easier incursions with my corp in half the time and have WAy more time to pvp (or talk to the wife, which IS pvp btw).


---

To the OP. I agree with the goal, but not your solution. Space Socialism is not the answer.


Ray Parez
Posted - 2011.08.27 01:12:00 - [75]
 

As I understand it, large alliances such as NCdot reward their member corps with supercaps, in exchange for having good KB stats

EI Digin
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.27 05:16:00 - [76]
 

give me all the isk

problem solved

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.27 05:38:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Si Omega
So consider this. Alliance funds (AFTER COSTS) are distributed automatically to corp/alliance members.



That sounds like a fantastic idea - You should start an alliance that does that.

GSF keep open books, so we know where our money is going: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlIIq5agK7rWdDRnaWwzMVRrYTFCTG1sZEJhTWN1Z1E&authkey=CMng2u0B&hl=en_US#gid=5


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