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Sjugar
Posted - 2011.08.23 19:22:00 - [1]
 

Ok, so I played a bit yesterday and managed to sc**** together the 700-800 million that it costs to buy 2 plexes and fund my accounts for another month. Actualy I played all day.

But considering how "easy" it was to make that amount of ISK, who pay those plexes for me? Who hands me a month's worth of gametime to get like 360-370 M?

I'm really wondering. Are there just a few who spend lots and lots of real money on Eve or are there a few that sell a plex now and then.

Who are the people that keep Eve free for me, and what are their motivations?

Fractal Muse
Posted - 2011.08.23 19:26:00 - [2]
 

Before I answer the question, I have one of my own:

How long is 'played all day?'

Is that 4 hours? 8? 12? 16?


Ymirus
Minmatar
Fly Drunk
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.08.23 19:26:00 - [3]
 

Mostly it's people who'd rather play 'how they want to' without bothering with making ISK and/or people with enough real life disposable income that the cost of x amount of plexes is worth less to them than the time they would have to spend earning said ISK ingame.

Sjugar
Posted - 2011.08.23 19:29:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Fractal Muse
Before I answer the question, I have one of my own:

How long is 'played all day?'

Is that 4 hours? 8? 12? 16?


Isk making activities? 9 hours.

Kitty McKitty
Gallente
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.08.23 19:30:00 - [5]
 

Considering the only way to get plex is via cash purchase or some promotion such as the buddy system it's clear that there are indeed those that would rather just drop some money for plex rather than earn the isk in game.

In before the following:


  • less effort to work x hours irl and pay for sub and plexes

  • less effort to work x hours in game and pay for sub with ISK

  • less effort to scam/trade/do xxxxxx specific pve activity and pay for sub with ISK

  • lol u are wrong

  • I have eleventy trillion isk and dont need to lift a finger for xxxxx years


Aldan Romar
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.23 19:38:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Sjugar
... Who are the people that keep Eve free for me, and what are their motivations?
Me, for example. I use PLEX to get additional ISK, basically, because I
Originally by: Ymirus
...'d rather play 'how they want to' without bothering with making ISK ...
and because I allow myself to blow some money on this hobby (a NEX customer as well Wink ).

Kitty McKitty
Gallente
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.08.23 19:41:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Aldan Romar
(a NEX customer as well Wink ).

UH OH! Watch out for pitch-forks!

Gigante Toralen
Posted - 2011.08.23 19:50:00 - [8]
 

People like me that have way more disposable income than free time to play computer games. So in my gaming world, $35 for 700 million ISK is money well spent.

zeberath
Posted - 2011.08.23 19:57:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Kitty McKitty


  • I have eleventy trillion isk and dont need to lift a finger for xxxxx years




how you guys make that mutch isk? are you guys always grinding L4 or mining? or is just about "endgame" isk making stuff?, i know you can make isk by scaming, trading etc but sure there is competition there too, and needs time.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:04:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 23/08/2011 20:07:03
Originally by: zeberath
Originally by: Kitty McKitty
I have eleventy trillion isk and dont need to lift a finger for xxxxx years

how you guys make that mutch isk? are you guys always grinding L4 or mining? or is just about "endgame" isk making stuff?, i know you can make isk by scaming, trading etc but sure there is competition there too, and needs time.

I made (in the end) nearly half a trillion net profit in one patch prolonged trade session : Linkage
Could have actually made much more, but I was overly cautious. Laughing

P.S. If you would be running missions like a madman, say, maybe averaging 100 mil ISK/hour (using multiple accounts, uber-specialized, etc) and working as if it would be a standard full time job (8 hours a day, 5 days a week), it would take about two and a half years to get half a trillion ISK that way.

Zenith Intaki
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:07:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: zeberath
Originally by: Kitty McKitty
I have eleventy trillion isk and dont need to lift a finger for xxxxx years

how you guys make that mutch isk? are you guys always grinding L4 or mining? or is just about "endgame" isk making stuff?, i know you can make isk by scaming, trading etc but sure there is competition there too, and needs time.

I made (in the end) nearly half a trillion net profit in one patch prolonged trade session : Linkage
Could have actually made much more, but I was overly cautious. Laughing
Now, how much you could have done in that period of time, if you would have put that effort on real world business?

Serina Diggs
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:10:00 - [12]
 

Look at it this way. How much real life money could you make even with a minimum wage job in 9 hours? How much can you rat in 9 hours? Typically 90m an hour w/o phat lewtz on average. Minimum wage here is 7.25. So in 2 hours of work someone has already bought one plex w/ RL money and sold it to you for your 4-5 hours of ratting.

I would rather work 9 hours at a real job and spend all of that money on paying for my accounts + PLEX for other chums like you to buy. I would end up having more ISK than you + more money IRL + a girlfriend + friends + more fun in EVE because I am not constantly shooting rats all day.

Using plex to get gametime with ISK is just a cheap trick deployed by CCP. Buying plex is OK if you are making money barely doing anything like people with lucrative moons and other do-barely-anything-to-make-gobs-of-isk EVE activities.

Otherwise it's just a waste of your life, bro.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:13:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 23/08/2011 20:18:51

Originally by: Zenith Intaki
Now, how much you could have done in that period of time, if you would have put that effort on real world business?

No idea. Most likely, not even remotely as much, because getting RL funding to "play with" is far more difficult.

For the actual effort, I estimate it was maybe about 30 hours actual work collecting data and working on spreadsheets, 5 hours tops actually fiddling with orders, and most of the rest of the time just arguing on the forums (which I would have done anyway, so it doesn't really count).
So, basically, less than a week of *actual* work, to get as much ISK as I could have gotten if I would pay very roughly somewhere around 20k USD to buy GTCs/PLEX and sell them for ISK.

Even if I over-estimate it all to maybe 200 hours (say, if you claim the forum time also matters), where do I find a job that pays over 100$/hour ? Twisted Evil
Sure, I could loan a huge amount of cash and play the stockmarkets, but it's not even close in terms of risk to do that in RL. You don't get such a massive advance warning of what's going to happen in the economy, nor do you get such easily predictable huge price shifts.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.08.23 21:08:00 - [14]
 

Just to tag the thread with the counter point to peole attesting that you'd be dumb not to pay for plex if you make so much an hour more in RL

Related to all that is before and after tax income, an employer or profession that offers you more hours or you have business you're turning away that you could take, a willingness to work a longer work week so you could have game assets , no other better claims in rl on that amount of discretionary spending money you have (sushi , a rock concert, or a tengu ?...most people can't have every extra $15 thing they'd like in the world)

But, the most important:

Some people play the game because they really enjoy the activities that happen to make isk, or they keep score in the sanbox based on their isk generation not the dollars of destroyed assets they can put on the Killboards. That makes sense doesn't it ? (even if its not what you prefer) .

Just as finding juicy kills takes recon, an prepartion , patience and timely coordinated effort so does eve industry and commerce... which can be quite exciting for many when it comes to market control and manipultion, or just satisfying.

Some people enjoy shooting at asteroids or red boxes in missions while having a beer , chatting with friends on vent or watching tv. They could be doing all of those things without the eve part, but the eve part doesn't really distract them from their other social enjoyments happening concurrently.

But to the OP - lots of people like the shooting people part of the game and not the others and have pressure or desire to fly more expensive ships rather than cheap ships that could offer the same excitement. Many of those people buy a plex or so a month to pay for losses.

But... your bigger question was how did the plex for isk sales break down... the one a month is pretty common but certainly there are people who only buy one early in their game experience to get some working capital for commerce early but more so, the few who sell 50 or something for a super capital, for a character purchase, for expensive pos set ups etc.

Obviously one guy selling 50 equals 50 guys selling one for the month.... and, I'd guess that it is more frequent than a 1 in 50 among that subset of players that sell plex for isk in the first place.

I would guess 50% of the plex come from a very small number of people with a big plan(or buying a character with $), 20% come from people selling a few for a bigger goal than usual (getting a capital or faction fit t3 that they won't lose often) and 30% from people who routinely lose ships and replace them with $>isk transactions rather than playing the isk earning parts of the game.

Sure those numbers are a "bit" out of my ass. But my guesses come from partial knowledge of peoples habits from years of play and talking to players and from trading characters in half a dozen regional markets doing regional buys of plex and my ablity to see the patterns by name of the sellers.

Not-Apsalar
Posted - 2011.08.23 21:28:00 - [15]
 

Run incursions for the bulk of a day to generate enough isk for two plexes or work one hour for the same.... decisions decisions

Sjugar
Posted - 2011.08.23 21:44:00 - [16]
 

I understand that people have to rationalize choices. But I haven't got the option to work more or work less. I got a set amount of hours. I could get a second job in the evening, but to do that for spaceship wealth?

I understand that getting isk by paying for it is easier, but a 1 on 1 comparison in time spent on the job and in a game? Isn't the game supposed to be your leisure time?


JeanBomberFromagePutain
Posted - 2011.08.23 21:48:00 - [17]
 

One plex equals 14euro. I mak anywhere between 30 to 50 euro an hour.

/thread

M5 Tuttle
Posted - 2011.08.23 22:24:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Sjugar
Originally by: Fractal Muse
Before I answer the question, I have one of my own:

How long is 'played all day?'

Is that 4 hours? 8? 12? 16?


Isk making activities? 9 hours.


So it took you 9 hours to make 30 dollars worth of ISK, for a rate of 3.3 dollars/hour. I think this should have answered your question.

TheMahdi
Posted - 2011.08.23 22:35:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: TheMahdi on 23/08/2011 22:36:22
Originally by: Sjugar
Isk making activities? 9 hours.


There are people who earn a lot more than that an hour and want to do something fun when they play EVE.

Edit: ninja'd, answer still relevant

Bongo Debbie
Minmatar
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.08.23 22:37:00 - [20]
 

You could just spend all your life working and be mega rich and not waste it on anything that wasn't essential.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.08.24 02:56:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 24/08/2011 03:26:07
Originally by: M5 Tuttle
Originally by: Sjugar
Isk making activities? 9 hours.

So it took you 9 hours to make 30 dollars worth of ISK, for a rate of 3.3 dollars/hour. I think this should have answered your question.

Minimum wages over here in Romania are 700 RON/mo (for unskilled labor ; it's minimum 1200 RON/mo for jobs that require a university degree).
Minimum paid leave per year is 21 days, plus various holidays, that leaves 234 working days in 2011, or 1872 working hours for the equivalent of roughly 2850 USD (for the absolute minimum ; 4885 USD for superior studies jobs).
That comes out as 1.52 USD/hour (or 2.61 USD/hour for the other one).
But, that's BEFORE TAXES.
Which, granted, are smaller for somebody earning minimum wage, but it's still 9.5% for social services, 1% unemployment, 6.5% national health, PLUS 16% tax on non-deductible wages (which depends on number of dependents, and is only 250 RON per month for a person without any dependents).

That leaves you with 1.1 USD/hour (509 RON instead of 700 RON) for the first kind, and 1.83 USD/hour (844 RON instead of 1200 RON) for the second kind.
And let's not even talk about VAT (Romania is part of the EU), because let's say you're buying the GTC online from a non-EU site (which technically means you're aiding fiscal evasion, but who cares) so you side-step that particular issue (otherwise you would be looking at the equivalent of 0.76 and 1.27 per hour).

So... 3.3 USD/hour actually sounds pretty damn GOOD in comparison for somebody living over here and working minimum wage, especially since getting paid overtime is virtually never heard of, and getting a second part-time job is bordering on a miracle.


P.S.
Of course, minimum wage is crap. You can't even afford to rent a nice place with that kind of money, let alone have anything left over for the bare necessities.
So you think the average is better ?
The NET AVERAGE WAGE across the entire country was only 1424 RON/mo (almost triple of the bare-minimum net wage), or 483 USD/mo (which means you could afford a modest rent and live frugally with not much in the way of spending money), which means 3.1 USD/hour.
Yup, that's still lower than 3.3 USD/hour.
No wonder quite a few of the Romanians I have contact with ingame actually buy PLEX with ISK as soon as they can afford to.

Aldan Romar
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.24 04:15:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Aldan Romar on 24/08/2011 04:16:17

Originally by: Sjugar
I understand that people have to rationalize choices. But I haven't got the option to work more or work less. I got a set amount of hours. I could get a second job in the evening, but to do that for spaceship wealth?

I understand that getting isk by paying for it is easier, but a 1 on 1 comparison in time spent on the job and in a game? Isn't the game supposed to be your leisure time?



Basically it has more to do with how do I spend my time. That is where I start to make relative calculations.

Say I have limited time to spend on EVE -
Say I'm not into the more lucrative EVE activities -
Say I have an income that not only feeds my basic needs but lets me spend a certain sum on EVE (optimally without having to miss out on other things) -

Then I ask myself if it's not worth more to spend the equivalent of x hours of real life work in cash than trying to make that in more than x hours in ISK ingame.

If the answer is yes, I buy PLEX with real life money to sell for ISK.

So for me it's not about actually working more for money to buy PLEX, but about making use of the ressources time and money that I have: I work a fixed number of hours which I cannot cut (rather the other way round), so I have limited time for my hobbies. On the other hand I have a reasonable sum of disposable income that I can use to offset that time limit, in this case by removing the supply question from EVE.

KamikazeBrAzIl
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.24 04:54:00 - [23]
 

I work hard in real life to fund my PVP on EVE.

This way I don't need to spend time making isk.

Mr Plack
Posted - 2011.08.24 08:57:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Mr Plack on 24/08/2011 09:02:41
@OP:

Anyone who doesn't feel like wasting a day of their life with horrendously boring EVE PVE and at the same time has a RL job that pays more then 5$ an hour.

For example I'm making about 30$ per hour (actually closer to 35$ thanks to the weak dollar) working my nine to five desk job. So I make roughly a plex per hour. If I can spend 1h per month to finance my PVP instead of 10-20h of sickening grinding then that's definitely worth it to me.

Kunming
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2011.08.24 10:02:00 - [25]
 

You're all doing it wrong...

Passive income is the way to go!

Thornat
Posted - 2011.08.24 13:02:00 - [26]
 

I know a lot of people who buy plex to get cash and actually as already in above postings given that most of us have fairly sizeable salaries spending 15 bucks to get 370 million ISK which can take several hours to earn in game doing stuff its usually not contest, though personally I have never done it for two reasons.

1. I play the game to enjoy the game, sometimes what I do is profitable, sometimes its not, but I make sure that what I'm doing is enjoyable. I don't worry about plexes because for 15 bucks I can enjoy the game every day all month so for me spending ISK on PLEXes is pointless, I rather spend it on stuff I use for my large variety of operatons I run with my friends.

2. I don't equate work time to in game time. For me earning 400 million ISK is an achievement in the game that I earned and I enjoy having success in the game. I don't really bother with doing math like X amount of hours playing to earn X ISK means buying a plex is actually a better use of my time. Again, I don't really count the hours I play, I play as long as I feel like playing and am enjoying. Buying the ISK is rather empty to me, because in the end I don't play Eve on some desperate effort to earn ISK, I play because I enjoy the challenge of the game. When I can't afford something I just wait until I have saved enough and than buy it, which becomes a reward for me for well executed gameplay. Buying it is not a reward, which is why I don't see any point in buy characters either. It seems silly to skip entire portions of the game content just to get to the end game... its the journey not the destination that makes Eve fun.

Which brings me to my final point. I think their is a lot of bitternes and anger over the game and the losses people take and I think its because people are constantly doing ISK to real money math or ISK to time math. A drake is a drake.. its a fun ship to fly and at any moment it might get blown up. You fly it as long as you have it. Not playing the game to its full extent (PVP, low sec, null sec, wormholes etc..) because your worried about loosing it to me is just silly. Its a electronic toy, not a real ship and its not worth real money again as long as you dont buy plexes.. as soon as you start buying plexes, those ships become worth real money which to me is just a stupid idea but different strokes for different folks.

Malcolm Slayton
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.08.24 13:35:00 - [27]
 

@Thornat: +1
I think the same. Perhaps if I could earn enough ISK to buy plexes, but with enjoyment, I'll do that, just to spare a month.

But to me the game is enjoyable, I like mining, I like what I do. If the game becomes boring, if I play just to earn ISK but I don't like the gameplay anymore, I think it will be time for me to quit the game.

I'll not buy plexes for real money, for me this is a sort of cheating. It is endorsed by CCP but for me it is still cheating. In most mmorpg such things are forbidden ;) Because the plex system means that the more wealthy IRL have the most money in game, and I don't find it good...

I doubt I'll ever buy a plex for ISK as well, as I don't think I'll ever be able to earn enough ISK to buy plex and still have ISK for my eve activities ^^ (when I see the price of implants, big ships, and so on)

So to me eve is just what is is, a game, a hobby. I pay a subscription fee like in most mmorpg. And I play it and I enjoy it.

A Little Girl
Posted - 2011.08.24 14:22:00 - [28]
 

but the minerals I mine are free! So I get game for free! ugh

Silver Usoko
Posted - 2011.08.24 14:31:00 - [29]
 

As someone who buys PLEX,

I make 5-600 mil isk/hour quite easily.

2 hours grinding will fund 3-4 accounts - thats far from the worst wage in the world and far above the minimum wage for even the richest of countries.


Primera Black
Posted - 2011.08.24 23:20:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Primera Black on 24/08/2011 23:28:21
official statement from ccp:

god (so far he/she/it exists) praise the wealthy ones because they are the ones who keep our company alive.


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