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blankseplocked moving ice to low and nul is giving the drf a blank isk check...
 
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Lady Ayeipsia
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:42:00 - [1]
 

Moving ice to nul and low sec, with the current state of nul is nothing more than allowing the large nul alliance one more blank isk check. They will be able to control the market, and any who wish to have a pos in hi sec will either be stuck missioning to make ends meet or buying plexes to sell for isk to fund the pos.

The only way this could be prevented is if ccp gives unlimited research, invention, and manufacturing slots in hi sec, which will not happen.

Why is ccp trying to hinder indy development and the joy many of us get out of invention and manufacturing just to line the pockets of the large nul sec alliance?

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:46:00 - [2]
 

Long as supercap walls are an iWin button, it doesn't really matter to be perfectly honest.

Lu'Marat
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:57:00 - [3]
 

As with most recent changes, I can only speculate that CCP simply hates players and goes above and beyond to torment them. They are probably throwing darts at a print of your character portrait right now.

Prince Kobol
Posted - 2011.08.23 14:18:00 - [4]
 

I've been saying the same thing for a while now.

Move Ice to null sec and the whole research/Invention/manufacturing will be in completely in the hands of the null sec alliances.

The price of Ice will raise to the point where nobody is going to grind the require isk to fuel a pos.

The amount of ice will be reduced to a fraction of what is available now since only bots mine in Null as all the players in null are too l33t to mine.

The prince will rocket and will be 100% controlled by the null sec alliances.

Most people agree null sec has major problems, but that doesn't mean to make it better you destroy the rest of the game, unless of course you want to become the next SWG.

Kesshisan
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.23 14:33:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia
Moving ice to nul and low sec, with the current state of nul is nothing more than allowing the large nul alliance one more blank isk check. They will be able to control the market, and any who wish to have a pos in hi sec will either be stuck missioning to make ends meet or buying plexes to sell for isk to fund the pos.


Wouldn't opportunity cost pretty much prove you wrong?

Unless, of course, the opportunity cost of mining ice in high sec is much higher than that of other sources of income such as missions, trading, or incursions. However, in the event that you can prove yourself correct, Ayeipsia, I'll start training to get into a Hulk.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.08.23 14:44:00 - [6]
 

The devs are leaning more towards making ice more like roid belts: not infinite and depleteable.

However, knowing that they're leaning that way and knowing we know, the will probably just move it all to null.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2011.08.23 14:53:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Prince Kobol
...
The sky is falling, and other things like that...


You have trouble with the supply <-> demand equation, it seems.

Supply will dwindle because 0.0 players won't mine ice? One word: renters. If that's not enough, prices may rise a big, and make it more worthy to mine ice as a living. It will reach a balance point eventually between profitability and volume. It always do, when there's no artificial limitation like moon goo monthly volume. But that balance point is guarranted to be under the profitability cost of putting up a pos in the first place.

Prices will be controlled by 0.0 alliances? Wrong, prices will still be controlled by what buyers are willing to pay.

0.0 alliances are going to impose a monopoly on ice? Wrong again. Monopoly is only possible with a handfull of sellers. Even if the DRF were to hold all of 0.0, the DRF isn't a single entity. It would still be hundreds of corps competing with each other to sell ther ice.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.08.23 16:55:00 - [8]
 

I have to wonder what the hell the rational behind this is.

Ice mining is one of the least profitable activities one can engage in in EVE. A perfect Mack with an Mindlinked max leadership Orca booster cranks out a whopping 7 mil Isk per hour on highsec Ice. This compared to that same perfect miner with that same Orca who could be making 17 mil/hr mining Veldspar.

It's hardly game breaking earnings.

And this idea that Ice mining is primarily a bot activity why the hell would a bot mine Ice when it could just as easily be programed to mine actual ores even the least profitable of which (Omber) would generate 12 mil isk per hour.

It's only real advantage is that the long cycle time and lack of need to move around makes it an effective way to generate a little isk while doing other things for the non-botter.

Even the most lucrative per hour Dark Glitter (which is already only available in null) is only worth about 18 mil an hour this compared to Arkonor which is around 52 mil per hour even Crokite is good for about 25 mil an hour.

Now tell me in an environment where you have to pay attention (or bot) anyway to survive why the hell would anyone chose to harvest ICE over mining minerals?

This idea of moving ICE to null only is a stupid, pointless exercise dreamed up by people who are clueless of the economic realities they are addressing.


Godpool
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:04:00 - [9]
 

OP, your premise is wrong.

You could just as easily move all ice to null sec. Then make high sec POS's take -50% fuel. If the price doubles, you still pay the same price.

Also, if ice in null sec is moved to grav belts, every system would need a mining detection array with the sov isk cost of such array.

With that, you could make it so ICE isn't unlocked unless the owners of the system mine 1 mil m3 of other, lower minerals first, especially if they want to mine dark glitter.

The other end result is the bots will have to pull down tengu plex bots to add macro mining bots, and the macro mining bots are MUCH easier to kill than the tengu bots.

I've seen days back when Bob was around where 20 hulks in a very bad bot would all get killed by belt rats. They warped to a spawn, got scrammed by a frig, then popped. The bot just warped to a pos, undocked a new hulk, and warped back to the ice.

Don't fear the removal of hi sec ice--it is a necessary change in the GR "the great reset" that is coming this winter.

As for hi sec research going bye bye--here is an idea...

What if blueprints were ALL removed and items were part of stations.

If I dock in a caldari station, the station menu gives me a drop down blueprint LIST. Then I just click on what I want to produce and add the minerals.

This would let some areas specialize in t2 production. Since different areas would have different blueprints per station, no one could have a monopoly on them. You could only queue up t2 blueprints as per station for 30 days. The first one who gets to the station gets the blueprints!

Jack Tronic
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:07:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Godpool

The other end result is the bots will have to pull down tengu plex bots to add macro mining bots, and the macro mining bots are MUCH easier to kill than the tengu bots.



Don't forget wspace will give a **** YOU to null by making those tengu plex bot hulls now cost 2 billion alone due to increased fuel costs.

Oh'Freddled Gruntbuggly
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:13:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Godpool

What if blueprints were ALL removed and items were part of stations.

If I dock in a caldari station, the station menu gives me a drop down blueprint LIST. Then I just click on what I want to produce and add the minerals.

This would let some areas specialize in t2 production. Since different areas would have different blueprints per station, no one could have a monopoly on them. You could only queue up t2 blueprints as per station for 30 days. The first one who gets to the station gets the blueprints!


And all those corps and individuals who currently specialise in blueprints can just sod-off and go play some other game, right?

Delianora
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:23:00 - [12]
 

collateral damage of the "great reset" coming...

I think one thing the NEX fiasco has taught us is that EVE keeps going--u lose 20000 people here, gain 20000 people there...

A long time ago lots of people flew "stab-a-bonds" -vagas with 2 stabs in the lows... Many, many people based their whole game on this...

They were uncatchable, then stabs got their current nerf--before they had zero penalty... My point is that those people were in a niche and were collateral damage... I hope they survived by adapting.

Anyone who is into r and d can switch to invention or the other blueprint niche stuff like the cosmos ...

In my system, you can still have invention, but you would also have 10 "vagabond" stations in NPC null sec. Anyone who gets there and finds and empty queue can simply queue up 30 days of vagabond production if they have the skills. They dont need a bpc or bpo since that is built into the system station.

Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:24:00 - [13]
 

If only there was some group of people, with more supercaps than the drf, who could come in and annihilate them. Surely that would end all of our woes.

HTFU, eve has been running for years, and things have escalated due to human nature to this breaking point. Unless CCP do something to discourage working together (lol yeah...) then having the biggest blob is going to win you everything, and then let you keep it until the bigger blob forms to kill you. The NC had it for years, now someone else will have it for years.


Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:29:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Messoroz on 23/08/2011 17:29:48
Originally by: Soi Mala
If only there was some group of people, with more supercaps than the drf, who could come in and annihilate them. Surely that would end all of our woes.

HTFU, eve has been running for years, and things have escalated due to human nature to this breaking point. Unless CCP do something to discourage working together (lol yeah...) then having the biggest blob is going to win you everything, and then let you keep it until the bigger blob forms to kill you. The NC had it for years, now someone else will have it for years.




The current blob has reached the point the old NC never did. They are using ships that no subcaps can take on in massive numbers, can win any fight by just dropping a few supers. Do you have 60 dreads sieging a tower? Bam, 3 supers and they are all dead in seconds because LOL dreads can't track moms.
Do you have a 400 man sub cap gang shooting a TCU? Bam, 40 supers dropped that proceed to obilerate every single ship with drones.

CCP's only choice at this point is to nerf them hard, either by attribute changes(you know, so they aren't faster than a carrier and can speed tank a dread) or actually providing new counters that subcaps can fly(though expensively).

Viule Sawyr
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:34:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Viule Sawyr on 23/08/2011 17:34:29
I'm still not sure what the point of moving ICE to null would be. Can't be to stop botters because they would just mine ore instead of ice while remaining in high sec.

It can't be to make fuel cost more expensive because fueling a POS is already ridiculously high. It was about 200 mil/mth to fuel my large invention tower when I finally pulled it down.

There is only one logical reason and that is CCP has no clue, WTF they are doing and are just doing what they always do.. That's some moron in the office starts off by saying.. "hey guys I have a idea!" then it's business as usual of screwing up working parts of the game.


Lady Zarrina
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:35:00 - [16]
 

Moving all Ice to null-sec would be close to the stupidest things they ever did. Make it deplete, that is fine.

All this focus on null-sec is scary. REAL SIMPLE, make it fun and people will goto null-sec. Screw with people and they will leave the game. Hmm which makes more sense.

Gillaboo
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:36:00 - [17]
 

I guess y'all better start buying up isotopes then, huh?

C'mon... chop-chop....

Ice fields have been nerfed in Empire before...

Wink

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:43:00 - [18]
 

Hey, I have a thought. If they DO move all ice to nullsec, how bout you.. oh, I dunno.. FIGHT FOR IT?

But nah, then you would have to turn your highsec mining bots off for a day or so, and that can't happen, amirite?

Alina Wize
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:44:00 - [19]
 

Join DRF.

Delianora
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:46:00 - [20]
 

The idea is a logical extension of a "great reset"--this is also a return to the corp principle of eve...

You need to associate danger with risk...

The general idea today is that ice exists in low sec and null sec and hi sec...

*most ice is mined in hi sec
*the high value ice (dark glitter, etc)is in low sec and 0.0
*people still don't mine the ice in null and low...

SO if you nerf, nerf, nerf high sec ice, you will make ice mining in 0.0 and low sec worth more...

What would it take for people to actually mine ice in 0.0---

50mil isk per hour?
100 mil isk per hour?

The other idea is that in the feature and idea discussion, CCP is heavily committed to making 0.0 have communities of players working together for cooperative play...

The 0.0 ice mining op is such an example of cooperative play, but it RARELY exists due to the current state of the game and mechanics

1) j-freighters and j-bridges go to Jita and back with cheap ice--all you need are cyno alts
2) bots in hi sec mine ice anyway so i will plex in a tengu, then buy their ice
3) low sec and null sec are very dangerous for mining ice

In the larger picture CCP already TRIED to solve this problem...

They removed about 75% of all ice belts in a "small reset" a few years ago...

Now this was an AMAZING moment in eve... I personally saw fleets of macinaws undock, warp to a ice belt that had been RECODED and removed... They sat they unable to mine for hours... It was really funny...

So the removal of ALL high sec ice isn't a huge step--they already removed 75% of it...

Also this MIGHT get the changes they want.

Futhermore, since CCP is so much better at killing mining bots, if they can establish real cooperative ice ops in 0.0, then they can kill ALL mining bots and not worry about the economy.

If they pulled the trigger and killed all the mining bots tomorrow, hi sec pos owners would be in a crisis anyway.

I personally made about 50bil isk off the last ice mining bot kill about 3 months ago--just bought up isotopes as the word went out, then slowly unloaded them.

The zero sum logic game looks like this, "If there are NO hi sec ice belts, then there are no macro miners in hisec mining ice." Problem solved--no one can every complain about hi sec ice-bots.

Next, ABC ore needs to get nerfed or re-adjusted back. The idea that you will mine abc ore instead of ice comes form the crappy state of the game today.

Dark glitter should be like mining for zydrine, but the economy is just too screwed up. With the ice nerf, you need to nerf workhole ABC, 0.0 drone region plushie drops, and all kinds of crap--that is why i keep calling this the "great reset".

Bodega Cat
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:58:00 - [21]
 

Bots.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.08.23 19:13:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Delianora
bunch of non-sense


Removing Ice from Highsec won't hurt bots at all. Why in the world would a botter waste time and take such a risk on a such a low revenue activity as Ice mining in highsec when they could easily earn double that amount just mining Veldspar?

As far as Null mining ops, The reason they aren't more common isn't because it's not lucrative enough it's because industrial ships including exhumers aren't sturdy enough, a single Arty thrasher can pop an exhumer before Concord can act what hope does a defender stand against someone who isn't insta-popped on their 1st-3rd shot?

That's if you can even convince the average ADHD PVP pilot to sit around for hours "guarding" said op.

Limiting Ice to null would simply cause a dramatic increase in price for ice products but order for that increase to be sufficient to actually motivate any null sec organization to mine enough for export to low and high that price would have to be high enough to completely distort the entire economy.

An increase in production cost with out an associated increase in high sec income generating potential would mean a reduction in demand for those items that have Ice products in their production chain. Which if I understand it correctly includes pretty damned much everything that's built due to the absolute need to operate a tower for reliable BP research and copying caused by the shortage of public facilities.


This is assuming those null sec entities can even find people motivated sufficiently to fulfill their own needs much less any surplus for export.

IMO anyone complaining about high sec Ice mining bots is a clueless moron. If you can program a bot to target ice turn on a harvester and periodically move Ice to a nearby Orca you can just as easily program one to target a veldspar roid turn on a strip miner and periodically move or to a nearby Orca. Considering they can program these bots to engage in far more complex activities involved in plexing and mission running having them use the survey scanner to ensure they are maximizing their efficiency hardly seems more technically daunting.

I mean you do understand how a supply/demand curve works right? Basic micro-economic principle there will be x amount of demand at a given price point and x-z at a higher price point the higher the price point the less the demand until the point where there is no demand at all.

Increase the price of ice products do to limiting access by sec status and you affect all prices across the board. We already know it would have to at least double in price to match the opportunity cost of even the least lucrative alternative null mining activity (gneiss which is currently so pathetic you'd be better off mining veld) to be more realistic it would likely need a 350%-740% increase in price to match what could be made mining Crokite or higher.

So what do you think would happen to prices if it were to cost 3-7 times as much to fuel a tower? Because that's what you are talking about.

Ice products are relatively cheap because in it's current state it's a low risk low isk activity that can be done semi-afk by people who are doing other things.

I can for instance run my little Ice mining op only having to tab over every 6-10 minutes to move Ice to the Orca, Since it frees me to do other things I'm willing to take such a low rate of earning.

This doesn't work in null where unless one has a bot that's programed to safe up at a POS the instant a stranger shows up in local you have to be paying attention to that stuff yourself.

Meaning sitting at the keyboard staring at the screen while doing what is very possibly the most boring activity in the game this means you won't have people doing it just cause it's less attention intensive.

Once again a stupid idea from people with no understanding of basic economic concepts.

Delianora
Posted - 2011.08.23 19:45:00 - [23]
 

No, I understand you fine, but I don't think you understand why removing ice from hi sec is the best option...

I've done the incidental ice mining for a few months as you described...

You lock onto some roids, tab screen, go do some RL stuff, scoop to can or orca, doc up...

It's a nice trivial niche to mine ice and play eve, I guess...

But I think in the long run, for the best of the game, that method of play style needs to be collateral damage in the "great reset" that is coming...

Have you every popped a barge in hi sec and watched the pod warp back and forth to belt for a few hours on some kind of macro cycle?

Have you ever mwd hit a mackinaw and watched the barge autobot back to ice mining?

Also your method of ice mining (and my method also) was not cooperative play. Remember, in the feature and ideas section, CCP indentified cooperative play as a key feature of this game, especially in null sec...

Now I like mining with an orca and a personal fleet of ice ships but now i realize that that playstyle is just a warped vision of the "sandbox"...

Sure, you can't get a bunch of ADHD pvpers to guard a mining op--been there done that, but the ice mining null sec op will be back...

You claim people who want ice removed from hi sec are "morons" because we dont understand the price will rise 3-7 times. Yep, I get that, I welcome it!

You want to make supercaps nerfed--then raise the cost of ice...
You want to make travel less of jfreighter to jita--jita to jbridge--then u start with raising ice prices so the profit margin is thinner...

Do I think we need 30000 hi sec pos's out there with the dream that everyone gets their own pos? Nope, lets raise the cost and see how many come down... That would be one small step to less "fluffy world" in hi sec...

I just did a fly by of low sec--lots of ME PE slots all open...

Will bpcs bpos and all that get popped and will industry cost more--yep, I see that and I welcome it.

We are talking a "great reset" here, you seem too stuck in the old eve that has removed itself from the eve roots...

I don't mind a compromise--you can tab over ice all day for 10 min, then run around in real life, but expect to have roids deplete and the yield a lot less than today...

Also try to think outside the box some more--perhaps hi sec pos's should cost less to fuel if ice is going to triple in price. Perhaps labs should cost 50% LESS cpu so large towers can now be downsized to MEDIUM towers with the same number of labs as large towers...


Why don't you write me a paradigm with this

Razzhi sec--low rewards--low risk
Razznull sec--hi rewards--hi risk

Pok Nibin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:01:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Godpool
OP, your premise is wrong.

You could just as easily move all ice to null sec. Then make high sec POS's take -50% fuel. If the price doubles, you still pay the same price.

Also, if ice in null sec is moved to grav belts, every system would need a mining detection array with the sov isk cost of such array.

With that, you could make it so ICE isn't unlocked unless the owners of the system mine 1 mil m3 of other, lower minerals first, especially if they want to mine dark glitter.

The other end result is the bots will have to pull down tengu plex bots to add macro mining bots, and the macro mining bots are MUCH easier to kill than the tengu bots.

I've seen days back when Bob was around where 20 hulks in a very bad bot would all get killed by belt rats. They warped to a spawn, got scrammed by a frig, then popped. The bot just warped to a pos, undocked a new hulk, and warped back to the ice.

Don't fear the removal of hi sec ice--it is a necessary change in the GR "the great reset" that is coming this winter.

As for hi sec research going bye bye--here is an idea...

What if blueprints were ALL removed and items were part of stations.

If I dock in a caldari station, the station menu gives me a drop down blueprint LIST. Then I just click on what I want to produce and add the minerals.

This would let some areas specialize in t2 production. Since different areas would have different blueprints per station, no one could have a monopoly on them. You could only queue up t2 blueprints as per station for 30 days. The first one who gets to the station gets the blueprints!
Ask you what time it is, you tell us how to build a clock.

Delianora
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:23:00 - [25]
 

Yeah, Pok,

The game is so complex and so many people throw out stuff like "OMG THIS WILL RUIN IT" that they don't think thru all the logical changes devs can implement to make the change the best for the game...

I honestly don't know WHY so many people are wedded to their own corner of the "sandbox" and why they are so protective of their own "niche" in this game.

I mean why would people get so upset about removing hi sec ice if the game would be so much better for it?

I fly thru Russian space DAILY--I can tell you that in some systems they already mine ice with 20 hulk, mackinaws and orcas just sitting in the belts...

You can't get to these without running a dozen large bubbles in a dead end system, but you can cloak in them so they cant mine.

The problem is you cant shut them down as they will just buy ice from hi-sec and reship it BACK to 0.0.

Removing hi sec ice and then afk cloaking in their ice systems forces a non-sequitur in their plan. It brings back real people to eve--no bots in hi sec (there is no ice) and no bots in 0.0 (you will get popped mining ice)...

This is the crescendo that will be revolutionary and game changing for all of eve, and for the better.

Lady Zarrina
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:29:00 - [26]
 

Just shows how bad null-sec truly is when they have to gut hi-sec of everything to FORCE people there. So why try to make it fun when we can just force people there.

They will realize their mistake soon enough.

Bane Nucleus
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:32:00 - [27]
 

Just move all ice to wormhole space. That way high sec, low sec, and null sec all have access to ice via wormholes popping up in their systems. Twisted Evil

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:34:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Lady Zarrina
Just shows how bad null-sec truly is when they have to gut hi-sec of everything to FORCE people there. So why try to make it fun when we can just force people there.

They will realize their mistake soon enough.


They did realize their mistake. That's why they're removing ice from highsec.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:35:00 - [29]
 

a slight step off from the op, but still on ice mining:

If CCP wants to introduce more risk to icemining, how about making it impossible to mine ice in an NPC corp ?

(make up some rp element that those corps wanted their members leaving that activity to npc specialists etc)

I just always am inclined to partial steps. Another step would be to have reduced ice mining laser effectiveness (cycle time?) in high sec.

Why go all the way when you can try part way first ?

Delianora
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:45:00 - [30]
 

The point of moving ice to null sec is NOT to get people out of hi-sec to null sec.

The casual ice miner who posted above is a great example of the niche player I am talking about.

He logs in a orca then a small fleet of hulks. He plays solo without anyone in game. His focus is "real life" so eve is just like an interactive TV show.

He stops by the computer every 10 minutes, tabs screen alot, drags some cans, and in 30 seconds he is "gone" from eve for 10 more minutes.

Hey, I got NEWS FLASH for everyone--that guy is NOT playing eve! If ice got removed, he could whine, but let's face it... If he doesn't quit, he will do this.

1) learn to afk domi level 3 missions--come back to screen one minute in 10 (remember there are no level 4s in hi sec anymore in the great reset)
2) tab screen on veldspar--the roids will pop before he gets back, but he is only here for 30 seconds out of 10 minutes...

SO

Look at it this way--our hi-sec casual ice miner should make what? 30 mil isk per hour? Ah no,

20 mil for 30 seconds of tabbing? yah, no!

10 mil isk for 30 seconds of tabbing? ehhh, well sorry no!

5 mil isk for 30 seconds of tabbing? yep, about right

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The inflation of the game has almost a QUADRILLION ISK --yes, we are beyond trillions! we are talking an economy of isk inflation and assets that is over trillions!!!!!!!

So, our "I just play mine ice for 30 seconds... He is gone, collateral damage to save the game. His five million isk per hour just is not enough to warrent his playstyle.

He can domi level 3 missions for that isk, but the benefit is removing all of ice and ice bots.

So, no one is kidding themselves--that guy is STAYING in hi sec.

The real reason to remove ice is this...

1) 0.0 alliances can't buy it from hi sec--hey, u wanted to be "self-sufficient"
2) they are forced into which bot--the tengu plex bot, or the mining ice bot
3) the ice bots can be shut down AND u can simply afk cloak in the ice belts in 0.0
This leads to more pvp, more risk, and more killing in 0.0 if they mine ice.
If they don't mine ice, fine, no pos for you...

The net result is the following:

1) smallholdings exist as big guys drop sov
2) less isk in game
3) more pvp
4) more cooperative play as u bring back the "ice mining op"
So, again, the moving of ice to 0.0 is NOT supposed to get ANYONE out of hi-sec to 0.0. What about hi-sec pos's? Just make them cost 50% less fuel. Then make the labs cost 50% less cpu. Put 30 labs on a small tower then. Buff station r and d slots, whatever it takes to make the hi-sec people less nervous about their pos's.



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