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blankseplocked Foul behavior in EVE and CCP's tolerance
 
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Nosha Meza
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:27:00 - [1]
 

When I started to play this game, i figured it would be something like Homeworld or Imperium Galactica with the online experience and fun. Sadly this has turned to be a competition of bad mouthing and using all your wits to avoid foul stuff, from racism to scamming, from corp theft to meta gaming.

2 days back I went to the recruitment channel and turned to the forums as well. In matter of minutes I have received a considerable amount of conversation attempts to sell me isk, to "offer me a deal of the century", to recruit me for 500m isk and so on and so on. And I dont mean 1 or 2 convos, I mean 10+. On the forums, nothing. No such attempts. My question is if CCP does not tolerate foul behavior on forums, why do they tolerate it in the game? Technically, Im here to play with spaceships, not to plan about robbing, scamming, bad mouthing someone just for the **** of it.

As to the racism and fascism in EVE, I do see its become quiet popular to call each other names and use terms such as:
Removed. navigator

Ive had the beautiful opportunity to play the game the last 2 years with a person who I will not name in here. After 2 years of gameplay, he acquired only but a handful of skillpoints. Only to learn later from his father that the boy experienced brain damage due to a type of meningitis as a child and could not evolve like the most. As I understood it was a miracle he even survived. But it brought him nonetheless great joy just to sit and play and watch the rest of us play in 0.0 / low sec / hi sec, talk to comms (even though he never said a word). Unfortunately, few knew about this and in most cases, people made fun of him by using certain terms in game which are similar to the ones I stated above. Why CCP chooses to tolerate the use of such profound language which is uttered towards the challenged and disabled individuals which give nothing else except unconditional love and respect towards us is beyond me.

Ive seen a vast number of afro-americans and africans play EVE a lot. Some dont react too well at being pointed at and called . Some dont even respond to these provocations. Some even take it as a joke. Honestly, its not a joking matter once a person takes it to a different level and makes a totally different ball game out of such a term. I, for one, was one of the individuals that used the term in a funny manner, without thinking. To those I offended, I am truly sorry. To those that are still not thinking about the consequences, Ill let you in on a little secret: IT CAN REALLY HURT PEOPLE! Remember, theres a difference between an impulsive reactions when you lose a ship or get scammed and you just blurt out a random insult about a family member that you would like to copulate with (being as nice as possible here:), its not the same as intentional verbal abuse.

I understand this is the internet and people cant be protected from all the inhuman stuff going on in here, but on the other hand, this game that we play evolves the way we, as players, would like it to evolve. On one side its our responsibility to play with some sense of dignity and loyalty to ourselves and fellow players. On the other side, CCP should offer something in return, more restraining measures, a tougher ban policy not just 3-day bans and literally an unlimited tolerance in regard to certain offensive issues. I undertook a small experiment by using one of my miner / hauler characters, a certain Jack McKormack and sitting in the recruitment channel for days, spewing forth all kinds of garbage. And in the end, I got a 3 day ban?!?!? I mean, THATS IT?!?! Is the money we pay for this gaming experience really of more value to you then the players?

Not sure why I wrote all this, probably while it came down to logging on, doing a mission and logging off kinda attitude due to all of the above. So Id like to see some changes in that direction.

Hoping someone sane reads this and tries to understand.

Peace

Cool

Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:28:00 - [2]
 

Don't circumvent the profanity filter.

Nosha Meza
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:32:00 - [3]
 

Profanity filter is there to help avoid direct verbal abuse.

I'm not here to abuse anyone but point out a few things and in my opinion, using the original term and not just saying "its the N word" or "its the R word" has a much greater effect on the reader.

But then, that's just me.

Shartifartblast
Minmatar
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:34:00 - [4]
 

No, it's there to stop people like you spreading hateful filth like you just posted.

Nosha Meza
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:35:00 - [5]
 

Did you even read?

Shartifartblast
Minmatar
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:40:00 - [6]
 

Yes. It's the reason I subsequently reported you for multiple evasions of the language filter. Not just in your reprehensible list but also in your own deliberate use of foul language.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:43:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Othran on 23/08/2011 12:44:47
You'd have done better if you hadn't brought the poster disabled child into your argument - makes the whole post look like a troll IMHO.

Anyway just petition the names - CCP will change them fast enough. Same with channel chatlogs - people will get banned. I don't think you can blame CCP as they DO take action quickly when its pointed out to them

You simply have to accept that for a large portion of the Eve playerbase (not pointing at any one country) anti-semitism and racism towards blacks is normal behaviour at all levels in their society. Terms like "jewing it up" are perfectly acceptable to them.

Petition it or ignore it. Up to you but bringing it here won't solve anything.

Nosha Meza
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:46:00 - [8]
 

I'm pointing out that a lot of people use violent, foul, offensive terms in EVE, which should be handled swiftly with a more serious approach from CCP. And all you can see is the filter violation???

I don't think you should derail my thread if that's your intention.


Old Chub
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:46:00 - [9]
 

despite the circumventing of the profanity filter, I am honestly surprised that if you feel this strongly about it that YOU haven't done anything.

All of the things you just mention in your message are violations of the EULA/TOS. Simply file a petition with stuff mentioned in game. If it happens over personal voice comms, then of course EVE is not responsible. You are not allowed to spew hatefull crap in game, but there is way to much going on for it to be moderated.

The forum is easier to moderate, and even then, players reporting posts is a key element to helping the moderation out (like me reporting this post for the profanity). Start reporting and make eve a better place.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:56:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Mr Kidd on 23/08/2011 12:56:53
Originally by: Old Chub
Simply file a petition with stuff mentioned in game.


And we know how effective the petition system is...

Regardless, while not defending such behavior, CCP cannot/will not possibly censor +300,000 accounts. Do like the rest of us who don't appreciate this kind of behavior and stop associating with these kind of people. Chalk the rest of it up to being the way life is. People love. People hate. Noone can legislate/EULA tolerance, compassion, empathy and morality.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.23 12:59:00 - [11]
 

Nice intentions but IBTL

Nosha Meza
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:03:00 - [12]
 

I did petition a few. Not sure what happened. Got a "Thank you" and "We will look into it" response.

As to the language filter, it can be implemented in the game as well, no? I may fail to recollect correctly, but dungeons and dragons online seem to have had something similar where the violent language would be replaced *****. The same thing you see on the forums. It wont help that much, but in a general picture it will / might / could have some positive effect in the game.

I am supremely confident that if CCP can make a game of this magnitude, they might kick in a small, tiny thing like a language filter. If anyone has played any gore games, I do believe there's the gore / blood / language filter in such games, present always under 'Options'.

Bans work always. More strict in every aspect.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:04:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Othran on 23/08/2011 13:06:49
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 23/08/2011 12:56:53
Originally by: Old Chub
Simply file a petition with stuff mentioned in game.


And we know how effective the petition system is...


On this sort of stuff it happens FAST. Expect a reply same day and if its a character name it'll be changed to the generic citizen name at the same time.

Chatlogs which aren't in public channels take longer - if its in local then it depends on the timezone you are in I guess. I've seen people muted and then banned within minutes in busy trade hubs.

Edit - you should file petitions dealing with race/religious issues under the Harassment category, not EULA. That's what I was told ages ago and it seems to work.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:05:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Black Dranzer on 23/08/2011 13:16:04
It's pretty hard to have a discussion about specific kinds of profanity without actually using that profanity. Words are as powerful as we make them. In this context, they pose no threat.

As for the matter at hand, words are just tools of communication. If I say **** ****** **** **** ****, that string of profanities doesn't actually mean anything. It's just a collection of letters and noises. To suggest that a particular pair of syllables spoken in sequence is some horrendous thing is frankly absurd to me. Let me ask you what's worse, saying "I hate black people", or saying "****** ****** ****** ******"? The former doesn't have any profanity at all. The latter is entirely profanity! Horrendous profanity, in sequence no less! But it doesn't actually mean anything. It doesn't communicate an idea or state an opinion. It's just two syllables, placed in succession, four times.

Censoring profanity is meaningless, and censoring ideas is dangerous.

We do the former because it's easy. We do the latter because we're scared.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:09:00 - [15]
 

Well Navigator hit some of it but left the rest lol

WhiteGhostBear
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:14:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Othran
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Originally by: Old Chub
Simply file a petition with stuff mentioned in game.
And we know how effective the petition system is...
On this sort of stuff it happens FAST. [...] Harassment category, not EULA.
CCP takes in-game harassment quite seriously. I have had another player make real-life threats not only to me, but an entire channel of people. He and his other accounts were gone within hours. Other less serious issues have also been taken care of in a timely manner.

Now, voice comms are another matter. If someone is derping around and tossing insults in your own TS, Ventrillo, Mumble, etc. server, that isn't CCP's domain. It's up to you to police that. I'm also not certain how CCP handles in-game voice abuse issues but you can always just leave voice chat when someone is being a derp.

gfldex
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:16:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Nosha Meza
My question is if CCP does not tolerate foul behavior on forums, why do they tolerate it in the game?


They don't. If somebody is insulting you, hit F12 and file a petition. The offender will be gagged in minutes. Running to the forum and making yourself look like a complete idiot will not solve any problems.

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:21:00 - [18]
 

As stated above this reaks of troll, but I will spit in the water none the less.

Petition first and then exploit all that the game gives you to exact revenge within acceptable game mechanics.




Slade

daddys helper
Posted - 2011.08.23 13:58:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: daddys helper on 23/08/2011 14:01:52
Edited by: daddys helper on 23/08/2011 13:58:36
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Edited by: Black Dranzer on 23/08/2011 13:16:04
It's pretty hard to have a discussion about specific kinds of profanity without actually using that profanity. Words are as powerful as we make them. In this context, they pose no threat.

As for the matter at hand, words are just tools of communication. If I say **** ****** **** **** ****, that string of profanities doesn't actually mean anything. It's just a collection of letters and noises. To suggest that a particular pair of syllables spoken in sequence is some horrendous thing is frankly absurd to me. Let me ask you what's worse, saying "I hate black people", or saying "****** ****** ****** ******"? The former doesn't have any profanity at all. The latter is entirely profanity! Horrendous profanity, in sequence no less! But it doesn't actually mean anything. It doesn't communicate an idea or state an opinion. It's just two syllables, placed in succession, four times.

Censoring profanity is meaningless, and censoring ideas is dangerous.

We do the former because it's easy. We do the latter because we're scared.


reminds me of that old Lenny Bruce routine from the 60s

(to the OP)
Frankly there's nothing that goes on in eve that's any worse than your standard rap album.
Expect that not everyone you see in game with has the same outlook on life as you do. Many people use different words for different reasons, habit, upbringing, a learned trait... Its up to you to use some common sense when interpreting these words. Some people just have poor judgement when it comes to terms and phrases, some just don't know any better, its pretty hard to tell.
But I can pretty much tell you that most people are not putting the weight behind the words as you seem to think they are.

Also keep in mind, the times they are a changin, "*****" is a pretty damn common word in the American vocabulary at this particular juncture, here in NYC you hear it hundreds of times a day from people walking around the streets gabbing with their friends, its part of the hip hop culture now (and yup, Lenny Bruce was right, use it enough and it looses its venom)
Now most of the people who complain about the word "*****" are closet racists who can't even hear the word without getting all guilty feeling inside.

bottom line is deal with it, if it offends you report it (if it offends your misplaced sensibilities then STFU). But don't jump on the pointless regulation bandwagon just because you feel uncomfortable about it. When you do that we end up with moronic government intervention like when they started running TV ads telling students how insensitive using the word "***" is. Somehow I don't think it worked out like the gov would have liked, now it seems that even more people than ever use the term "***".

and honestly, you kids today have no clue what real rampant racism is, back in the 70s? now that **** was real, and it was meant. Its the same words today, but the weight & intent is now different.


Please do not evade the profanity filter. Zymurgist

Bongo Debbie
Minmatar
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.08.23 14:17:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: daddys helper
if it offends you report it
ok

Signal11th
Posted - 2011.08.23 15:02:00 - [21]
 

Welcome to the human race unfortunately, take away the police/army/law and pretty much everything will revert to a dog eat dog world.


Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.23 15:08:00 - [22]
 

This thread makes me wonder if Samuel L Jackson does in fact play EvE as the rumors go. That guy drops the NBOMB a lot.

Zagam
Posted - 2011.08.23 15:22:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Signal11th
Welcome to the human race unfortunately, take away the police/army/law and pretty much everything will revert to a dog eat dog world.



The Internet = normal people + relative anonymity = half the population degenerates into highschool name-calling and acts intended to cause grief upon others.

Joe Skellington
Minmatar
Matari Legion Holding
Matari Legion
Posted - 2011.08.23 15:24:00 - [24]
 

A 3 day ban is a long time to some people, and that seems pretty standard for a "time out" period.

Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2011.08.23 15:49:00 - [25]
 

whining on the forums about this will change nothing. Raising your voice against racism and sexism even against your best corp mates changes everything!

/me ingame rages against rednecks from the past since 2007

Kitty McKitty
Gallente
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.08.23 16:03:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Karak Terrel
whining on the forums about this will change nothing. Raising your voice against racism and sexism even against your best corp mates changes everything!

/me ingame rages against rednecks from the past since 2007


YEAH! \m/ That's the spirit \m/

My corporation operates a 100% anti hate-crime policy which often gets US lot's of hate, but we love that we are having an impact and raising awareness.

Zaratustra
The Confed Crew
Posted - 2011.08.23 16:17:00 - [27]
 

So, you come on here whining about foul stuff in a channel you put yourself into?

Look, if this type of thing offends you that badly, don't go into those channels. You have 100% control of what you see in eve chat. If the recruitment channel offends you because of filth, then don't go in there. If local offends you, minimize local.

You can play this game by simply talking in private convos and guild chat. If your gameplay style necessitates local, then suck it up or change games.

If you're looking for an entirely family friendly game, there is no online game out there that will fit it. Period. You can't completely control an open game that is available to the public, any more than you can control what you hear when you go out to the mall.

You can't police those in the mall and catch every infraction, just like ccp can't control and censor every comment made.

Pick the lesser of two evils, or change games.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.23 17:33:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Nosha Meza
When I started to play this game, i figured it would be something like Homeworld or Imperium Galactica with the online experience and fun.wordswords


Right there was your first, and biggest, mistake. Who's the prejudiced one now?

CCP Zymurgist


Gallente
C C P
Posted - 2011.08.23 18:05:00 - [29]
 

Thread cleaned of discussion of moderation. If you have any questions about moderation please feel free to file a petition to discuss it.

Dopesick
Minmatar
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.08.23 18:14:00 - [30]
 

interwebs foul language? wha? Shocked

I have yet to find a corner of the internet that doesn't have intelligent conversation interwoven with foul-mouthed uneducated banter. Wink


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