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Pennock
Posted - 2011.08.19 22:05:00 - [1]
 

I'm a low SP pilot and still new enough that I can choose which race to skill up in. I want to know which race will give me the most options in PVP for a new player so think frigates and cruisers. An example would be the Griffin which is excellent at jamming and seems like a good way to permajam all the rifters (but banned in Red vs Blue so useless for me). I'm not too interested in a standard Merlin/Rifter PVP until I lose all of my isk to them.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2011.08.19 22:57:00 - [2]
 

All races have their pros and cons... it really depends on what weapons/tanks/tactics you prefer.

Minnie ships are typically favored in solo, small, and medium sized engagements due to their speed, mobility, and high "alpha" abilities (i.e. they deal high volley damage which is good against targets that are being repped). Their guns also use no capacitor power.
The downsides with Minnie ships are that their respective tanks tend to be a bit lacking compared to other races, they are quite skill intensive overall (Minnie ships have the ability to utilize shields, armor, turrets, missiles, speed, and/or some combination of all of the above) and their general over-reliance on speed (a Minnie ship that is scrammed and webbed is a dead Minnie ship).

Amarr are favored for medium to large engagements in part due to their large tanking abilities, ranged "short range" weapons, high damaging weapons (they deal about 10 to 15% less overall DPS than blasters), and little need for ammo.
The downsides with Amarr ships are that they are slow, tend to be lacking in versatility (many Amarr ships are "one trick ponies"), are very dependent on capacitor to run their weapons, and only deal in EM and Thermal damage (which many ships are a bit strong against).

Caldari are similar to Amarr in many respects in that their ships are a tad on the slow side and can field some pretty impressive tanks and DPS, but in shield and missile form respectively. Some of their ships are also VERY good in their specialty, outclassing other ships within it (ex. The Caracal is one of the few cruisers other than the Rupture that instills fear into frigate pilots). The Caldari also have ships which have bonuses for ECM, which is HIGHLY effective in small and medium sized engagements.
The downsides with Caldari are that, like the Amarr, some of the ships in their line-up tend to be a bit limited in terms of versatility... to the extent where some of their ships can only do one, maybe two, things really well but nothing else. Other problems they suffer from lie in their weapon systems. Missiles have to fly out to their target before the DPS is applied, leaving them at a bit of a disadvantage in ranged combat, and hybrid weapons in general are outclassed by projectiles (Minnie weapons) and lasers (Amarr).

Gallente have turned out to be the proverbial "Jack of all Trades." Their droneboat line-up in particular embodies this line of thinking, using bonused drones to deal significant DPS while the the ship itself focuses on either utility or survivability. Their blaster line-up, when used properly, is capable of dishing out mind-boggling DPS at close range. Both lines of ships can be fitted a number of ways to a given situation... employing decent armor tanks, decent shield tanks, or decent speed.
The problem with Gallente ships lies, again, in their "Jack of all Trades" style and their weapon systems. They can armor tank, but nowhere near the levels that the Amarr can. They can shield tank, but not as good as the Caldari can. And they can be fast, but not as fast as Minmitar ships can be. And they usually can only do one of these things at a time.
Drones are like missiles in that they need to get into range of the target before applying DPS, but unlike missiles in that they are destructible and can be left behind in the "heat of the moment" (effectively leaving you with no DPS ability in some cases). Hybrids also have issues in that blasters (short range) have trouble applying their damage unless they are literally jammed up the tailpipe of the target. Railguns (long range) are the exact opposite in that they have enormous range but little damage dealing ability. Both Blasters and Railguns are reliant on capacitor the same way lasers are.

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.20 00:29:00 - [3]
 

Caldari
Pros: Drake, Falcon
Cons: Anything which uses hybrids. Even more useless than Gallente hybrid boats.
Conclusion: Only train for the Drake or Falcon. Don't touch hybrids. Caldari is mostly dead-end.

Gallente
Pros: ...Um.... The Dominix is flexible.
Cons: Hybrid weapons. Impossible fitting requirements and stupid ship bonuses. You WILL gimp your ship, this is guaranteed.
Conclusion: Avoid avoid avoid avoid avoid avoid.

Minmatar
Pros: Fast, high damage, great tanks, flexible range, best tracking, capless guns, they get overpowered ships. The Cyclone, Claymore and Sleipnir have an extra slot compared to the other racial counterparts, for no reason.
Cons: People usually say high skill requirements. NOPE. Minmatar get the second largest (And occasionally largest) powergrids AND the easiest to fit weaponry. You core skills can be low. Split weapon systems simply don't exist, as all you need are autocannons and energy neuts, and you still get more dps than everything else. Don't need to train missiles. You'll need to train for shield AND armour tanks? May as well. It only takes like 5 days, and every pilot regardless of race should.
Conclusion: Overpowered. Get these ships.


Amarr
Pros: Can have a big tank. Variable range insta-swap energy crystals are an adequate comparison to Minmatar's ridiculous falloff.
Cons: Slow, most ships are bad. Pretty bad ship bonuses.
Conclusion: The "balanced" ships of EVE, in my opinion. Go with Minmatar instead.



Next year, when CCP balance hybrids, you may find that some ships suddenly become useful. About 2/5 of EVE's ships are bad, simply because hybrids are terrible in every way imaginable.

Dorian Tormak
M0N0LITH
Posted - 2011.08.20 00:43:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Gallente
Pros: ...Um.... The Dominix is flexible.
Cons: Hybrid weapons. Impossible fitting requirements and stupid ship bonuses. You WILL gimp your ship, this is guaranteed.
Conclusion: Avoid avoid avoid avoid avoid avoid.


MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN...

This is getting old guys, Gallente are not that bad.

Pennock
Posted - 2011.08.20 01:59:00 - [5]
 

Minmatar ships are looking powerful but what I want to see is that a race has more then one way to fight. I only really know about Caldari fighting with Missiles and kiting or ECM. I dont want to be stuck with rifter or gtfo. I heard something about Amarr ships using cap warfare, can frigates do this and which ones?

Adoni Bedek
Amarr
B A D - M O J O
Posted - 2011.08.20 01:59:00 - [6]
 

Yeah I'm not sure when the last time you went up against a dual repped plated myrm with t2 drones was, but I can tell you it wasn't my greatest moment...

FeralShadow
NME1
Posted - 2011.08.20 02:09:00 - [7]
 

I would, hands down, go with amarr. Lasers are the ****, they give good tracking, good damage, and the ability to instantly switch out crystals giving you huge flexibility in range in a dynamic fight. Tanks are pretty good, but since they're almost all armor tanks (not really nano speed tanks) they are more "do or die". For me, it's always a toss up between minmatar and amarr. I use amarr a ton, and I use minmatar just as much.

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.20 02:17:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Adoni Bedek
Yeah I'm not sure when the last time you went up against a dual repped plated myrm with t2 drones was, but I can tell you it wasn't my greatest moment...

But I'm sure any Minmatar ship has enough extra, incomprehensible utility slots to fit a smartbomb or two. That's pretty much guaranteed to subtract at least 80 drone dps from nearly any ship, and completely cripple Gallente ones Laughing

Pennock
Posted - 2011.08.20 02:21:00 - [9]
 

This isnt a which race has the best frigate or cruiser thread, it is which race can fit the most viable ships with diverse strats as I only have the patience to train for one.

Wylee Coyote
Posted - 2011.08.20 03:07:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Wylee Coyote on 20/08/2011 03:10:39
Originally by: Pennock
This isnt a which race has the best frigate or cruiser thread, it is which race can fit the most viable ships with diverse strats as I only have the patience to train for one.


I think the problem is that you're under the delusion that eve is like a role playing game. It is not. Eve is Lego. Between skills, modules and ships, how you do things is up to you. Some legos are space themed, some are egyptian themed, some are police/firefighter themed but in the end, they're all legos, and they all work together however you want them.

The ONLY thing that everyone agrees on at this moment, is to not train or use railguns. That's it.
(inb4trollsayingrailzroxxorz)

If you don't have the patience to train up more than one race's ships, then how can you possibly have the patience to train up any/all the other requisite skills to fly/use those ships?

I think you either picked the wrong game, or you need to actually understand what I've typed above.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2011.08.20 04:00:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Pennock
This isnt a which race has the best frigate or cruiser thread, it is which race can fit the most viable ships with diverse strats as I only have the patience to train for one.


In other words... which is the "best" race of them all. The answer to that is... none.

Each race has a "thing" they are good at (some exceptions apply) and no racial line can do "everything." Whether you like it not, you will find yourself training up different race's ships in order to do something that the race you choose as your "primary one" cannot do (or cannot do well).
This is the "balance" in EVE. It is also what "encourages" you to find other players who have trained up different ship lines (as they will be able to compensate for your race's inherrent weaknesses).

Shartifartblast
Minmatar
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.08.20 04:46:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Originally by: Adoni Bedek
Yeah I'm not sure when the last time you went up against a dual repped plated myrm with t2 drones was, but I can tell you it wasn't my greatest moment...

But I'm sure any Minmatar ship has enough extra, incomprehensible utility slots to fit a smartbomb or two. That's pretty much guaranteed to subtract at least 80 drone dps from nearly any ship, and completely cripple Gallente ones Laughing


Meanwhile back in reality, that doesn't happen very often.

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.20 06:22:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: ShahFluffers
In other words... which is the "best" race of them all. The answer to that is... none.


Actually, Minmatar is the best race. It isn't perfect, but the race is better than any else.

Ramalamadindong
Posted - 2011.08.20 11:21:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Originally by: ShahFluffers
In other words... which is the "best" race of them all. The answer to that is... none.


Actually, Minmatar is the best race. It isn't perfect, but the race is better than any else.

Ignore anything Vice Admiral has to say. He is clueless. There is no best race in Eve.

Shartifartblast
Minmatar
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.08.20 12:14:00 - [15]
 

Minmatar is most used for solo / small gang versus larger fleets because you can disengage easier (run away). The Rifter is great to learn PVP in.

This is why people always say Minmatar are the best. They aren't, they are just great at a specific tactic.

Pick any race you like they all have advantages.

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.20 12:54:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Shartifartblast
Minmatar is most used for solo / small gang versus larger fleets because you can disengage easier (run away). The Rifter is great to learn PVP in.

This is why people always say Minmatar are the best. They aren't, they are just great at a specific tactic.

Minmatar excel in the "niche" role of non-blob PVP Laughing

Dorian Tormak
M0N0LITH
Posted - 2011.08.20 15:58:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Originally by: Shartifartblast
Minmatar is most used for solo / small gang versus larger fleets because you can disengage easier (run away). The Rifter is great to learn PVP in.

This is why people always say Minmatar are the best. They aren't, they are just great at a specific tactic.

Minmatar excel in the "niche" role of non-blob PVP Laughing


Saying this goes against any degree of logic anyone might have had ever.

The Majority; The Blob; The large group of players, believes Minmatar are the best. This is because Minnie tactics favour considerably in the blob-style of warfare: Get in fast, deal the highest volley, get out fast. Gallente DPS doesn't matter when you alpha ships into oblivion and disappear into the stars.

This is what makes Minmatar the best; not because they are the best for solo; but because they are the best for the blob style of warfare, or at least next to best.

Cedo Nulli
Posted - 2011.08.20 19:22:00 - [18]
 

Answer is easy ... Winmatar is the best race.

In everything there is allways 1 that is better then others. Only commies and hippies try to claim otherwise.

Best bet for your buck (aka time invested in form of SP)

BeachParty
Caldari
Semi Precious
Posted - 2011.08.20 20:41:00 - [19]
 

Honestly I have to say Caldari has the worst PVP battleships.

Wylee Coyote
Posted - 2011.08.20 20:52:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: BeachParty
Honestly I have to say Caldari has the worst <[damage dealing]> PVP battleships.



Fixed that for ya! ;)

Taron Hakard
Posted - 2011.08.20 21:23:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Dorian Tormak
Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Gallente
Pros: ...Um.... The Dominix is flexible.
Cons: Hybrid weapons. Impossible fitting requirements and stupid ship bonuses. You WILL gimp your ship, this is guaranteed.
Conclusion: Avoid avoid avoid avoid avoid avoid.


MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN...

This is getting old guys, Gallente are not that bad.


I agree, these forums are making me cringe.

Originally by: Dorian Tormak
This is what makes Minmatar the best; not because they are the best for solo; but because they are the best for the blob style of warfare, or at least next to best.


Now you're just being an idiot with a passion. Minmatar excel at solo PvP above all. They're fast and agile, can run away from and kite fleets. They're capacitor independant more than any other race. They've got a wide selection of damage types they can dish out and ranges they can fight at. They have large drone bays and alot of utility high slots which makes them deal with alot more ships than other races can. Minmatar is THE MOST ready for any kind of combat race there is. They're the best solo race of all while having a very large presence in fleet engagements. It's something other races can only dream of.

To the OP, if you want the overall best PvP race, go for Minmatar. However other races can PvP aswell and there's usualy a handfull of good all around ships to fly, it's nothing like being skilled for Minmatar though. There are ships like the Merlin or the Vexor or the Harbringer which are as good, if not better, than their Minmatar counterparts, however if you look at the overall picture Minmatar is king of PvP, it's safe to say that anybody who claims otherwise is being foolish.

Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
The Eleusinian Mystery Cult
Posted - 2011.08.20 21:48:00 - [22]
 

This may not be the most accurate metric (it favours fleet combat) but it's a metric nonetheless.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Ships present in the EVE-Kill top 20:

Minmatar: 10 (12 including Angel Cartel ships)
Amarr: 4
Caldari: 3
Gallente: 0 (2 including Angel Cartel ships)

They're not called Winmatar for nothing.

Dorian Tormak
M0N0LITH
Posted - 2011.08.20 23:29:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Dorian Tormak on 20/08/2011 23:59:41
totally edited

I likegirls
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.21 02:06:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Ramalamadindong
Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Originally by: ShahFluffers
In other words... which is the "best" race of them all. The answer to that is... none.


Actually, Minmatar is the best race. It isn't perfect, but the race is better than any else.

Ignore anything Vice Admiral has to say. He is clueless. There is no best race in Eve.


Ramalamadindong is a noob!

Trixie Smithers
Posted - 2011.08.21 13:51:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Trixie Smithers on 21/08/2011 13:55:18
There really isn't a "best" as all bring something to the table. Pick one, then pick a ship that seems like it might be fun and focus on training for it.

Edit: One other thing: ignore the people talking about how terrible Gallente are. Every race has issues, they have theirs as well. They also have the best Assault Frigate and Interceptor in the game, really really nice T1 and T2 cruisers, a fantastic and versatile Battlecruiser, and really nice Battleships.

Umad Bro Questionmark
Posted - 2011.08.21 16:17:00 - [26]
 


Gallente for the next FOTM. By the time you will have them decently trained, blasters will have become OP. It's the normal cycle that happens every few years and it's blaster's turn now and they will be OP because all of this forum QQ.

It will stay like this for 1-2 years minimum until the next nerf comes and by that time you will be crosstrained at least with another race.


Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
Posted - 2011.08.23 15:15:00 - [27]
 

Minmatar: Very flexible, very fast, capable of fighting from a distance. Despite what everyone says, Minmatar do not have facemelting dps, simply because of how much falloff fighting you end up doing. Sure, EFT says 700 overheated DPS on a Hurricane and everyone is "ZOMG THAT'S OP" But in reality, you'll only end up doing 50-60% of that when you're kiting at 20km. Which is still decent, but not as OP as everyone says.

Pros: Able to keep a distance, versatile slots and fitting requirements, capless guns with switchable damage types.
Cons: Forced to fight in falloff. Additionally, most Minmatar ships have sub-par tanks compared to the other racial equivalents. (Of course, there are exceptions, i.e Sleip and Mael. Even those will melt in the face of enough ships to overcome their boosting.)

Gallente: Hybrids are the main problem with Gallente, as they don't work well with the slow, armor tanked Gallente ships. I'd tweak hybrids to increase their damage output and tracking, so that they are able to apply their "facemelting dps," and I would make Gallente ships more agile and faster (between Minmatar and Amarr in terms of speed, instead of Amarr and Caldari) so that they have a better chance of getting into range. Other than that... they really aren't that bad. Their droneboats are awesome (Ishtar, Myrm, Dominix) and their frigates are also awesome (Daredevil, Ishkur, Taranis, Incursus).

Pros: Drones, small ships.
Cons: Hybrids.

Caldari: The main problem is the Caldari ships instead of their weapon systems. (with the exception of hybrids ships; read above.) Missiles are great, but most Caldari ships have too few med slots when you take shield tanking into account to fit the necessary TPs/webs. Shield tanking is great, but a lot of Caldari ships don't have the PG to fit both LSE's and good missiles. That leaves you with a few decent ships which can make use of both shields and missiles; basically the Drake, and it's big brother, the Tengu. The Merlin is alright as a frig, but it's a hybrid platform, and most of your fighting will revolve around either tanking the opponent to hell, or keeping range and chewing away with rails. You also have ECM, the most universally hated EWAR system; as you said, though, they're banned in RvB, but they're still really awesome.

Pros: Missiles are nice.
Cons: Most Caldari ships have either crappy slots or crappy PG.

Amarr: Big armor and pretty lazors. There isn't too much to say here; they're decent at a lot of things. They have big optimal ranges, which makes them a good counter to most kiting ships, and a lot of their bigger ships have awesome armor resist bonuses which makes them tank beasts. The only downside I can think of is their susceptibility to neuting/TDing with cap intensive turrets, which means you often need to give up a midslot to fit a cap booster, which often means you can't fit something else like ECCM against ECM... But then again, you are in RVB. Neutral

Pros: They look pretty, big optimal ranges.
Cons: Cap intensive turrets.

My final advice is to get out of RVB if you want the full EVE PVP experience. Between banning the most popular type of ewar, making sure every fleet fight is perfectly even, well... Let's just say that's not going to happen in real battles. Razz

Tony SoXai
Posted - 2011.08.23 19:43:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Roosterton
My final advice is to get out of RVB if you want the full EVE PVP experience. Between banning the most popular type of ewar, making sure every fleet fight is perfectly even, well... Let's just say that's not going to happen in real battles. Razz


This is the only thing I have a problem with; I think RVB is a fine place to begin in pvp. Maybe leter you can leave, but if you're just beginning in pvp I don't see a problem with it.

Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
Posted - 2011.08.24 15:02:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Roosterton on 24/08/2011 15:02:29
Originally by: Tony SoXai
Originally by: Roosterton
My final advice is to get out of RVB if you want the full EVE PVP experience. Between banning the most popular type of ewar, making sure every fleet fight is perfectly even, well... Let's just say that's not going to happen in real battles. Razz


This is the only thing I have a problem with; I think RVB is a fine place to begin in pvp. Maybe leter you can leave, but if you're just beginning in pvp I don't see a problem with it.


Yeah, I suppose. But remember that when (if?) you do leave RvB, the rest of eve will be nothing like it. (You will be blobbed, ganked, ECMed, hotdropped, etc) It's still a valid place if you want to toy around with ship fittings or tactics, though.

Trudy McTrilliham
Posted - 2011.08.24 20:38:00 - [30]
 

I would suggest simply finding a play style you like and going with that, each race has a few decent ships. Even if you go gallente you can fly the drone boats (which I love) and avoid the mess that is hybrids.

I'm a big fan of drones, options you have are the Ishkur, Vexor, Myrm, Ishtar, Domi, and with a bit of cross training you can get Arbi,Pilgram, and the Curse from the Amarr line up.






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