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Saliss Aya
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:33:00 - [1]
 

Hi all,

I know the devs have an economist for helping keep the economy matched, etc. Do they have a sociologist and pyschologist as well?

I know all over the world people leave areas of chaos and lawlessness and move to areas where there is security, law and order - the world is a sandbox with the ultimate rules, there is no insurance if you are killed, you are gone. In fact it is a basic human need to have security in one's life.

Societies all over the world do this, they set up fairness, law, order, rules, etc. So is it any wonder that when the average player logs on, wants to relax and enjoy the game that they work months or even years on that they also want this same social order in the game? This is a sandbox game, there are harsh penaties for dying. It is not a theme box where death means running back to where to you just where with no real death penalty. People gravitate towards what is secure in a harsh environment, especially if no one is making them play or pay a sub.

As much as people love to bash carebears, the carebear movement is basically survival instincts kicking in that all people have, especially in a sand box game, which might not be so sandboxy here once new rules kick in.

If you want to make null sec more populated then you are going to have to pander to human nature, like it or not. It needs to become more secure, or the riches need to be soo rich as to reduce the penalty of death to a minor inconvience, which then might mess with the economy... as the world turns I guess.

Try to force people into an environment where they don't feel secure and the penalties are too harsh and they will leave and still not go. That my friends is human nature. Maslows basic hierarchy of basic human needs. It is why extreme social groups in RL are always a small minority and larger groups are always more laid back and relaxed.

That was my two cents.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:43:00 - [2]
 

see :
The New World
The American Frontier
The Wild West


Essentially, nullsec Cool

Lowsec is a little ****ed though... it's essentially the "bad part" of empire...

Veriasse Valence
Gallente
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:44:00 - [3]
 

In a game, where you can't permanently die, I suggest the carebear movement has a good deal more to do with casual, pve-only, and industrial interests than any real survival mechanism. Some may be scared of pvp, but frankly they are only a couple steps away from unsubbing in a game like this. Pvp makes the economic engine go 'round, and so all those carebear styles intrinsically depend on there being people dying elsewhere. Unless your whole goal is to.. gather ISK and have trophy ships... woo.

Saliss Aya
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:45:00 - [4]
 

Those are excellent examples of how people brought law and order into areas as they advanced and the populations increased. They are also excellent examples of how the populations remained low until this happened.

The gold rush was another excellent example, the RCMP and the military were both brought in almost as soon as towns opened up. Business demanded it.

Veriasse Valence
Gallente
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:48:00 - [5]
 

I dont think your dream of seeing CONCORD patrolling EC- is gonna happen any time soon. This is a GAME, and even when you die, you dont die. If you insure your ships and fly what you can afford to replace, its not even a big deal. Far too much is made of the 'dangers' and not enough has been articulated concerning the fact that some people want a sci fi theme park.

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:48:00 - [6]
 

Cowards in real life are cowards in a videogame environment. I don't get how people think the death penalty in this game is harsh. You can only lose one ship and possibly one clone at any given time. ISK is stupendously easy to make and if all you are doing is PVE then there's really no reason to go to low sec if you are risk averse.

The problem has nothing to do with the game mechanics and everything to do with people being pathetic wimps.

Saliss Aya
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:49:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Saliss Aya on 18/08/2011 14:49:35
Originally by: Veriasse Valence
In a game, where you can't permanently die, I suggest the carebear movement has a good deal more to do with casual, pve-only, and industrial interests than any real survival mechanism. Some may be scared of pvp, but frankly they are only a couple steps away from unsubbing in a game like this. Pvp makes the economic engine go 'round, and so all those carebear styles intrinsically depend on there being people dying elsewhere. Unless your whole goal is to.. gather ISK and have trophy ships... woo.


I can't say exactly why other people play the way they do... however, gettings toys is also human nature and keeping what you have worked for is an example of that. The rich are strong propents of law and order and keeping those who would steal their wealth locked away. I suspect if you worked for months on a goal and achieve it, you don't want someone else coming and taking it, that is the type of human security I was talking about. The more harsh the penalty the more people will avoid it. It's human nature.

Are there going to be outlyers, you bet there are... but if you want a majority, then you have to relax the rules some and bring in more law and order security. The game reflects this already. Call it what you want, but it's the way it is.


Veriasse Valence
Gallente
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:50:00 - [8]
 

Yes, this is why nullsec is often regarded as the safest space of all, if your alliance is capable of defending itself. Funny how that works?

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:52:00 - [9]
 

/troll mode ON
have you ever heard about USA? where is 90% of armed forces of it all the time? I suppose not in "safe lawful area"... And nope, they don't do that place more safe, more lawful. They do just another 0.0 place with destroying current government "until democracy will help these people". So zero-sec is normal for people Laughing
/troll mode OFF

Saliss Aya
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:55:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Dub Step
Cowards in real life are cowards in a videogame environment. I don't get how people think the death penalty in this game is harsh. You can only lose one ship and possibly one clone at any given time. ISK is stupendously easy to make and if all you are doing is PVE then there's really no reason to go to low sec if you are risk averse.

The problem has nothing to do with the game mechanics and everything to do with people being pathetic wimps.


Calling people names rarely brings about change. Seeking first to understand then to be understood is a wise choice of action. Listen to why they don't want to go to low sec. Don't judge them, then see if there is some middle ground. If you're not willing to give anything, then don't expect anything.

Bombay Door
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:57:00 - [11]
 

wow!

Came looking for a low-sec discussion, Left with a hand full of carebear tears and confused!

1) Some people just like to see the world burn (So low-sec is pandering to good majority of eve players)
2) YOU CANT DIE! so, your whole argument about security and safety is worthless.
3) Risk vs Reward, my guess is that ccp will be nurfing ISK payout in high sec before long. (see QEN for details)

Saliss Aya
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:59:00 - [12]
 

I was just bringing up human nature and how it fits a pattern in this game. Call it trolling or what ever, but it's a factor that won't go away. The average person likes to feel safe in their life. Be it an illusion or not. That could have a bearing on why low sec isn't teaming with people.

Human nature is pretty complex stuff, wars, etc, are all started by groups who think they are going to win and have something to gain to make their own lives better, usually resources. They already feel secure. You don't see groups who perceive themselves as weak starting a war. They don't see it in their best interest. Thus is born diplomacy.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:59:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Saliss Aya
Originally by: Dub Step
Cowards in real life are cowards in a videogame environment. I don't get how people think the death penalty in this game is harsh. You can only lose one ship and possibly one clone at any given time. ISK is stupendously easy to make and if all you are doing is PVE then there's really no reason to go to low sec if you are risk averse.

The problem has nothing to do with the game mechanics and everything to do with people being pathetic wimps.


Calling people names rarely brings about change. Seeking first to understand then to be understood is a wise choice of action. Listen to why they don't want to go to low sec. Don't judge them, then see if there is some middle ground. If you're not willing to give anything, then don't expect anything.



You'll have to forgive Dub for being rather two-dimensional intellectually, some people just do not really understand human nature nor do they have a capacity for dynamic awareness. While I disagree with some of your points personally, you are least in the ballpark enough that I am curious to where this discussion goes and will be watching.

Shocked

Veriasse Valence
Gallente
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:00:00 - [14]
 

Groups feeling weak declare war all the time historically. That is just plain false.

Saliss Aya
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:02:00 - [15]
 

Some people will not see anything from any other point of view but their own I guess.

Sorry I tried to get you to consider something. Please let this thread die.

I won't be trying again - thank you for helping me learn something here, I don't post a lot on the forums.

Now off to the highly populated fun low sec where you belong! Don't forget to nail all those carebears along the way and just get them to see it your way and all will be well.



Blacksquirrel
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:03:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Dub Step
Cowards in real life are cowards in a videogame environment. I don't get how people think the death penalty in this game is harsh. You can only lose one ship and possibly one clone at any given time. ISK is stupendously easy to make and if all you are doing is PVE then there's really no reason to go to low sec if you are risk averse.

The problem has nothing to do with the game mechanics and everything to do with people being pathetic wimps.


By this logic people that are pirates in game are also thieves, and thugs outside the game. And uber 1337 null bros are fantastical warriors or brave men facing down any wanton threat they so encounter!

Please that's the same argument anti video game idiots use when some jackass goes on a shooting spree.

Saliss Aya
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:04:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Veriasse Valence
Groups feeling weak declare war all the time historically. That is just plain false.


Who? I am curious. You can't count self-defense where a group feels impending doom in their current situation if they don't fight. After all a country can't run and hide like a human can.


Veriasse Valence
Gallente
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:07:00 - [18]
 

It is one thing to have a discussion, it is another to stealth whine about supposed risk. It is a frigging game, and if you cant deal with losing a pile of pixels you have serious issues.

The security status of the universe has been discussed for years, and CCP has only reinforced the divisions between them. Making more of EVE high sec would be just about the worst thing you could do in a world marketed for its grim nature, constant warfare, and player driven content. If you want to experience real EVE psychology, join a decently organized 0.0 outfit. You will learn all you want, and you will see why the whole 'ooh its scary out there' stuff is nonsense.

Leeroy McJenkins
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:09:00 - [19]
 

OP should consider renting behind someone else's security blanket.

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:10:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Dub Step on 18/08/2011 15:13:09
Originally by: Saliss Aya
Originally by: Dub Step
Cowards in real life are cowards in a videogame environment. I don't get how people think the death penalty in this game is harsh. You can only lose one ship and possibly one clone at any given time. ISK is stupendously easy to make and if all you are doing is PVE then there's really no reason to go to low sec if you are risk averse.

The problem has nothing to do with the game mechanics and everything to do with people being pathetic wimps.


Calling people names rarely brings about change. Seeking first to understand then to be understood is a wise choice of action. Listen to why they don't want to go to low sec. Don't judge them, then see if there is some middle ground. If you're not willing to give anything, then don't expect anything.



I'm not seeking to change them. Just calling it as it is.

Originally by: Blacksquirrel
Originally by: Dub Step
Cowards in real life are cowards in a videogame environment. I don't get how people think the death penalty in this game is harsh. You can only lose one ship and possibly one clone at any given time. ISK is stupendously easy to make and if all you are doing is PVE then there's really no reason to go to low sec if you are risk averse.

The problem has nothing to do with the game mechanics and everything to do with people being pathetic wimps.


By this logic people that are pirates in game are also thieves, and thugs outside the game. And uber 1337 null bros are fantastical warriors or brave men facing down any wanton threat they so encounter!

Please that's the same argument anti video game idiots use when some jackass goes on a shooting spree.


No, by my logic these people understand that this is a videogame and are having fun within the confines of the game's mechanics without restricting themselves by projecting real term senses of ownership and loss onto what is supposed to be entertianment.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:10:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Bombay Door

2) YOU CANT DIE! so, your whole argument about security and safety is worthless.



You really think it is as black and white as this? Humans are complicated creatures, you cannot simply write off intangible investitures as meaningless entertainment. Time and energy are important to people, both in gaining and losing. The intangibles themselves of course they can replaced, but the time and energy cannot be, there may always be a tomorrow, but there are less of them today than there were yesterday.

Let me ask you something, would you give up all your accounts and start a fresh one? Why not? Do you not feel secure with the progress, time, and energy you thus far placed in the game and are not willing to risk it or give it up? Because?

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:12:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 18/08/2011 15:13:06
Originally by: Saliss Aya
Those are excellent examples of how people brought law and order ... (more stuff too)



yeah, which is why nullsec is SAFE to the alliances (until a bigger one shows up and roflstomps them).

for RL equiv:

Berlin was "safe" nullsec during WWII
Japan was "safe" nullsec until the bombings of Nagasaki & Hiroshima
most everywhere that wasn't the front lines was "safe" nullsec... until the Allies came in and started pushing the Axis back...

lowsec is just like the urban blight/trash areas of otherwise "decent" population centres.

Saliss Aya
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:13:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Saliss Aya on 18/08/2011 15:14:00
Originally by: Veriasse Valence
It is one thing to have a discussion, it is another to stealth whine about supposed risk. It is a frigging game, and if you cant deal with losing a pile of pixels you have serious issues.

The security status of the universe has been discussed for years, and CCP has only reinforced the divisions between them. Making more of EVE high sec would be just about the worst thing you could do in a world marketed for its grim nature, constant warfare, and player driven content. If you want to experience real EVE psychology, join a decently organized 0.0 outfit. You will learn all you want, and you will see why the whole 'ooh its scary out there' stuff is nonsense.


You have some good points, perception is everything and right now, the perception is that null sec is dangerous. Some people don't care for that when they can stay in high sec. A lot of people play solo, so maybe that's the issue, how do they feel safe protecting what they have in the game in null sec?

Those pixels could be worthless paper money too, that arguement isn't really valid, it's like collectors placing value on what they value but others see as trash. People value some interesting things in this world...

Saliss Aya
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:18:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Velicitia
Edited by: Velicitia on 18/08/2011 15:13:06
Originally by: Saliss Aya
Those are excellent examples of how people brought law and order ... (more stuff too)



yeah, which is why nullsec is SAFE to the alliances (until a bigger one shows up and roflstomps them).

for RL equiv:

Berlin was "safe" nullsec during WWII
Japan was "safe" nullsec until the bombings of Nagasaki & Hiroshima
most everywhere that wasn't the front lines was "safe" nullsec... until the Allies came in and started pushing the Axis back...

lowsec is just like the urban blight/trash areas of otherwise "decent" population centres.


Good points, and people did try to make them safe and wars are generally avoided if they can be. Since the ultimate price of world devistation (nuclear weapons) we haven't had a world war. Funny how people can suddenly get along and find world security when the perceived price of loss becomes too high or too uncomfortable to bear.

Leeroy McJenkins
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:18:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Saliss Aya
how do they feel safe protecting what they have in the game in null sec?



You have obviously never seen 400 people from a dozen different alliances jump into one system to defend it.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:18:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Saliss Aya
Edited by: Saliss Aya on 18/08/2011 15:14:00
Originally by: Veriasse Valence
It is one thing to have a discussion, it is another to stealth whine about supposed risk. It is a frigging game, and if you cant deal with losing a pile of pixels you have serious issues.

The security status of the universe has been discussed for years, and CCP has only reinforced the divisions between them. Making more of EVE high sec would be just about the worst thing you could do in a world marketed for its grim nature, constant warfare, and player driven content. If you want to experience real EVE psychology, join a decently organized 0.0 outfit. You will learn all you want, and you will see why the whole 'ooh its scary out there' stuff is nonsense.


You have some good points, perception is everything and right now, the perception is that null sec is dangerous. Some people don't care for that when they can stay in high sec. A lot of people play solo, so maybe that's the issue, how do they feel safe protecting what they have in the game in null sec?

Those pixels could be worthless paper money too, that arguement isn't really valid, it's like collectors placing value on what they value but others see as trash. People value some interesting things in this world...



Would you believe me if I told you I feel safer in 0.0 than I do in high security?
And if I do not have viable access to home 0.0 space at any given time, I find some small comfort in zipping around in low security or just hanging around there?

Veriasse Valence
Gallente
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:20:00 - [27]
 

The point being that pixels don't really exist. Not in a physical sense. That fancy nightmare in my alts hangar is just some code somewhere on a server rendered on my computer screen. Getting attached to that kind of thing is pretty unhealthy. A magnet could accidentally your whole EVE life, for instance. I for one put a bit more investment into tangible things, like the fun I have with people, the relationships I build as I fly with a corp.

If you wanna fly solo and have an officer fitted faction battleship, I dont care. But that person really cant say **** about the fact that EVE doesnt cater to them, because honestly it doesnt. It isnt made for the theme park WoW-style experience, and anywhere (including precious high sec) is open for pvp. Do you think the suicide gankers care about the fact some people just wanna go home after a long day and run 30 missions in their pimp marauder? Yes they do care, but only insofar as they get to kill the poor sod.

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:20:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
Time and energy are important to people, both in gaining and losing. The intangibles themselves of course they can replaced, but the time and energy cannot be, there may always be a tomorrow, but there are less of them today than there were yesterday.


If people truly valued their time they wouldn't be wasting it playing videogames.


Originally by: Mendolus
Let me ask you something, would you give up all your accounts and start a fresh one? Why not? Do you not feel secure with the progress, time, and energy you thus far placed in the game and are not willing to risk it or give it up? Because?


What has this got to do with 'risk' or 'loss'? Your skillpoints are never at risk unless you are a complete moron and ISK is so easy to make that even if you somehow lost it all, including your assets, you would have more than you need with a small amount of effort.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:23:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 18/08/2011 15:24:32
Originally by: Dub Step
Originally by: Mendolus
Time and energy are important to people, both in gaining and losing. The intangibles themselves of course they can replaced, but the time and energy cannot be, there may always be a tomorrow, but there are less of them today than there were yesterday.


If people truly valued their time they wouldn't be wasting it playing videogames.


It is based solely on the opinion of each individual the value they place on the how they spend their lives doing any manner of activities. Are you saying that you are the sole judge and jury on whether or not someone's time spent in life is worthwhile or not?

Originally by: Dub Step

Originally by: Mendolus
Let me ask you something, would you give up all your accounts and start a fresh one? Why not? Do you not feel secure with the progress, time, and energy you thus far placed in the game and are not willing to risk it or give it up? Because?


What has this got to do with 'risk' or 'loss'? Your skillpoints are never at risk unless you are a complete moron and ISK is so easy to make that even if you somehow lost it all, including your assets, you would have more than you need with a small amount of effort.


But you still would not give up your skillpoints would you? Why not, they have no value, correct?

Saliss Aya
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:26:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Veriasse Valence
The point being that pixels don't really exist. Not in a physical sense. That fancy nightmare in my alts hangar is just some code somewhere on a server rendered on my computer screen. Getting attached to that kind of thing is pretty unhealthy. A magnet could accidentally your whole EVE life, for instance. I for one put a bit more investment into tangible things, like the fun I have with people, the relationships I build as I fly with a corp.

If you wanna fly solo and have an officer fitted faction battleship, I dont care. But that person really cant say **** about the fact that EVE doesnt cater to them, because honestly it doesnt. It isnt made for the theme park WoW-style experience, and anywhere (including precious high sec) is open for pvp. Do you think the suicide gankers care about the fact some people just wanna go home after a long day and run 30 missions in their pimp marauder? Yes they do care, but only insofar as they get to kill the poor sod.


I started this thread point out why people might not be jumping into low sec, not saying it was something to be changed. Perhaps low sec will always be the way it is now. However, if you want to change things, then you need to consider why people aren't there... and then try to solve that issue. That might involve change to the game, or it might not... but human nature is a factor regardless.


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