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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.15 23:52:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Cipher Jones on 16/08/2011 00:13:28
Originally by: Dub Step
Encouraging a move to low sec does not 'force' people to PVP. It forces them to watch their surroundings.

Other than that, it's currently far too easy to make ISK in this game with high-sec PVE content. Maybe this should change, maybe not, but for people wanting a challenge, better quality PVE content should definitely remain in lower security space.



Moving to lolsex or any other non hisec area in fact forces you to PvP. Sometimes even Hisec does, but thats another issue altogether.

Ghoest
Posted - 2011.08.16 00:42:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Ghoest
Edited by: Ghoest on 15/08/2011 23:11:17
Only idiots and noobs make this suggestion(or agree with it.)

PVE Players as a whole will always do the highest profit activity they can with no loss.
ALWAYS.

In most cases they can will just use bigger and more expensive gear in order to stay safe. Sometime they will run the content slower. Sometimes they will move to easier content that pays less. Sometimes they will work in teams.

But no matter what PVE players will will find a way to not lose gear while they grind money - ALWAYS.


Running the missions slower and losing ships in the trial and error process would alleviate the problem of ISK influx. That's one of CCP's goals, they have stated it directly multiple times.


First of all there is no activity in EvE that you can do post undock that is guaranteed zero loss.
Second of all, there would be no miners in eve whatsoever if PvE players ALWAYS took the path of most ISK.
Finally, you already made point #2 in your own post. After you said it wasn't true. LOL.



Mining in non-secure space is not PVE - to the degree its "versus" anything its PVP.
The PVE you and I referenced is when the potential threat to a players ship come from the server not other players.

Trolling removed. Zymurgist

Alpheias
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.08.16 00:47:00 - [33]
 

People crying about PVE in a PVP-centric game should just **** off to games that was made for them in the first place.

Worstluck
Dead Pilots Society
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.16 00:57:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Mendolus


The downside is that CCP spent an entire expansion adding more PvE content to the game, and people still want more...
I would personally prefer they devote an entire expansion to nothing but PvP mechanics, ship balance, and another graphics overhaul to be honest.

Not saying that making the AI a little smarter wouldn't spice up an old tired mechanic (L4s are a joke if you have enough skills and experience) but I do not see how it would be a boon to us in the long haul to keep getting PvE tweaks while PvP continues in its present lull (re: supercaps, docking games, numerous other issues, etc.)


I think you missed the point of the OP's post.

I believe his post was in reference to the recent blog about 0.0. CCP is already planning on adding PvE content to 0.0 to make it more attractive. This is not needed. Instead of new content in 0.0, add some more content in high sec, say make missions harder by improving all NPC AI. Make it more risky instead of forcing PvP on people.

Nullsec does not need buffing, high sec just needs to be made more challenging.

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.16 01:16:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 16/08/2011 00:13:28
Originally by: Dub Step
Encouraging a move to low sec does not 'force' people to PVP. It forces them to watch their surroundings.

Other than that, it's currently far too easy to make ISK in this game with high-sec PVE content. Maybe this should change, maybe not, but for people wanting a challenge, better quality PVE content should definitely remain in lower security space.



Moving to lolsex or any other non hisec area in fact forces you to PvP. Sometimes even Hisec does, but thats another issue altogether.


How so?

Amber Villaneous
Posted - 2011.08.16 01:19:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Alpheias
People crying about PVE in a PVP-centric game should just **** off to games that was made for them in the first place.


I don't give two shiites about this whole thread, but, the game as intentionally designed requires PVE. Also, EVE is not a PVP centric game, it is one aspect of a multi-faceted game.

Try this, if nothing about the game was changed with the exception of removing all PVP could PVE still happen endlessly, forever, yes.

If nothing about the game was changed with the exception of removing all PVE could PVP still happen, no, not for long unless you want to start paying cash for all your ships, fits, implants, officer/faction mods etc via the NEX.

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.16 01:36:00 - [37]
 

In reality, PVE exists only to facilitate PVP. Obviously CCP wants to make that experience reasonably interesting but it is not the central focus of EVE.

Fortunately EVE is an extremely deep game and you can get by working through enough content to never have to PVP if it is not to your taste. You just have to apprecate the end goals.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.16 02:15:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Amber Villaneous
Also, EVE is not a PVP centric game, it is one aspect of a multi-faceted game.
EVE is entirely PvP-centric. Everything you do in the game is PvP and nothing in the game would even exist without it.
Quote:
Try this, if nothing about the game was changed with the exception of removing all PVP could PVE still happen.
No. Because there would be no ships or modules for you to buy and no market where you could buy them; no minerals for you to build your own. The only activity available would be the one you could do in your newbship, and what you did would not serve any purpose since there would be nothing to do with your rewards. The game would be entirely pointless.
Quote:
If nothing about the game was changed with the exception of removing all PVE could PVP still happen, no
Yes. People would just replace the dwindling supply if ISK (which is all PvE is good for) with item exchange and direct trades, and not even that is assured since there are ISK faucets attached to PvP as well, which could be ramped up if need be.

The game is built around two key activities: combat, which destroys things at an alarming rate in a PvP setting, and industry, which creates things at a (hopefully) equally alarming rate in a PvP setting. Inbetween, you have the market where players compete with each other for the best deals — player vs. player. PvE is just there to inject a bit of lubricant in the form of additional ISK, and while it might add a bit of variety in the available items, none of those are strictly necessary.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.16 03:46:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Cipher Jones on 16/08/2011 03:50:09
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Amber Villaneous
Also, EVE is not a PVP centric game, it is one aspect of a multi-faceted game.
EVE is entirely PvP-centric. Everything you do in the game is PvP and nothing in the game would even exist without it.
Quote:
Try this, if nothing about the game was changed with the exception of removing all PVP could PVE still happen.
No. Because there would be no ships or modules for you to buy and no market where you could buy them; no minerals for you to build your own. The only activity available would be the one you could do in your newbship, and what you did would not serve any purpose since there would be nothing to do with your rewards. The game would be entirely pointless.
Quote:
If nothing about the game was changed with the exception of removing all PVE could PVP still happen, no
Yes. People would just replace the dwindling supply if ISK (which is all PvE is good for) with item exchange and direct trades, and not even that is assured since there are ISK faucets attached to PvP as well, which could be ramped up if need be.

The game is built around two key activities: combat, which destroys things at an alarming rate in a PvP setting, and industry, which creates things at a (hopefully) equally alarming rate in a PvP setting. Inbetween, you have the market where players compete with each other for the best deals — player vs. player. PvE is just there to inject a bit of lubricant in the form of additional ISK, and while it might add a bit of variety in the available items, none of those are strictly necessary.


Two words for you; Sandbox paramount.


Originally by: Dub Step
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 16/08/2011 00:13:28
Originally by: Dub Step
Encouraging a move to low sec does not 'force' people to PVP. It forces them to watch their surroundings.

Other than that, it's currently far too easy to make ISK in this game with high-sec PVE content. Maybe this should change, maybe not, but for people wanting a challenge, better quality PVE content should definitely remain in lower security space.



Moving to lolsex or any other non hisec area in fact forces you to PvP. Sometimes even Hisec does, but thats another issue altogether.


How so?


I catch a lot of **** for listening to dub step, people like you are why. You remind me of why Tim and Eric have a show.

To answer your question, because PvP is "always on". Also, watching your surroundings IS PvP. Cris rock aint lookin for the media at the ATM at 3 in the morning.


Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.16 04:00:00 - [40]
 

So by your definition, in high-sec, PVP is always on too. Therefore it shouldn't matter that PVE content gets moved to lower security systems.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.16 04:05:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Dub Step
So by your definition, in high-sec, PVP is always on too. Therefore it shouldn't matter that PVE content gets moved to lower security systems.


Then it wont matter to you if they put concord in low and null with the same restrictions as hi sec either.

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.16 04:09:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Dub Step
So by your definition, in high-sec, PVP is always on too. Therefore it shouldn't matter that PVE content gets moved to lower security systems.


Then it wont matter to you if they put concord in low and null with the same restrictions as hi sec either.


Of course I do. Thanks for making facetious moronic claims and not being able to back them up with reasoning.

I am right, you are wrong. Goodbye.

Simetraz
Posted - 2011.08.16 04:12:00 - [43]
 

The OP speaks flat out the truth.
This is a game you can't make anyone do anything.

You can give them all the reasons in the world to move but if they don't want to do it they won't.

That goes for PVP,PVE, 0.0, low-sec and high-sec.




Basileus Volkan
Posted - 2011.08.16 05:18:00 - [44]
 

Make PvE "hard" and you can bet on a lot of people being very bitter about that, too.

Apparently for a great many players the best thing since sliced bread is seeing the little number in their wallet increase into infinity, no matter how dull the task is to do just that.

Simetraz
Posted - 2011.08.16 05:21:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Simetraz on 16/08/2011 05:21:54
Originally by: Basileus Volkan
Make PvE "hard" and you can bet on a lot of people being very bitter about that, too.

Apparently for a great many players the best thing since sliced bread is seeing the little number in their wallet increase into infinity, no matter how dull the task is to do just that.


On the flip side of that coin is the killboard.

People naturally create goals to measure themselves.
And the goals in EVE are left up to the players.
If those options are removed then you no longer have a sand box.


Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.16 05:26:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Basileus Volkan
Make PvE "hard" and you can bet on a lot of people being very bitter about that, too.

Apparently for a great many players the best thing since sliced bread is seeing the little number in their wallet increase into infinity, no matter how dull the task is to do just that.


Being very bitter does not equate to quitting; just read the forums and you will understand that.


Aldan Romar
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.16 05:31:00 - [47]
 

EVE cannot survive without PVE, but it also cannot survive without PVP.

Take away or nerf one of them beyond recognition and the number of players breaking away will destroy the game.

Originally by: Basileus Volkan
Make PvE "hard" and you can bet on a lot of people being very bitter about that, too.

Apparently for a great many players the best thing since sliced bread is seeing the little number in their wallet increase into infinity, no matter how dull the task is to do just that.

Though it's for many, not everything is about ISK - EVE has a lot of interesting aspects aside industry (and combat).

Zirise
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.16 05:56:00 - [48]
 

The last expansion that didn't suck WAS a PvE expansion that did exactly what you were asking for.

As this is a PvP-centric game, this is more than you can really ask for. Nullsec is integral to the identity of EVE online. Its the presence of player politics and intrigue that make this game. Go play STO or something if you're looking for ratting online.


Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.16 06:05:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Zirise
The last expansion that didn't suck WAS a PvE expansion that did exactly what you were asking for.

As this is a PvP-centric game, this is more than you can really ask for. Nullsec is integral to the identity of EVE online. Its the presence of player politics and intrigue that make this game. Go play STO or something if you're looking for ratting online.




Arguing that eve is PvP centric is a total waste of time. EvE is open ended. Integral and centric don't mean the same thing by a longshot. Your kidneys are integral but not centric.

Simetraz
Posted - 2011.08.16 06:09:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Zirise
The last expansion that didn't suck WAS a PvE expansion that did exactly what you were asking for.

As this is a PvP-centric game, this is more than you can really ask for. Nullsec is integral to the identity of EVE online. Its the presence of player politics and intrigue that make this game. Go play STO or something if you're looking for ratting online.




Talking about PvP-centric while sitting in Fountain, not the wisest of moves.


Ryhss
Caldari
The Excecutorans
Posted - 2011.08.16 06:10:00 - [51]
 

+100

Zirise
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.16 06:57:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Zirise
The last expansion that didn't suck WAS a PvE expansion that did exactly what you were asking for.

As this is a PvP-centric game, this is more than you can really ask for. Nullsec is integral to the identity of EVE online. Its the presence of player politics and intrigue that make this game. Go play STO or something if you're looking for ratting online.




Arguing that eve is PvP centric is a total waste of time. EvE is open ended. Integral and centric don't mean the same thing by a longshot. Your kidneys are integral but not centric.


There is no escaping PvP in EVE. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, there is the potential for player vs player interaction. The same isn't true for PvE. That's pretty much the definition of a PvP centric game.


Thorn Galen
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.08.16 07:04:00 - [53]
 

To Cipher Jones,

I am not going to quote your post just to say that I agree with your sentiments 100%, so I'm just saying this to you - Thank you for your intelligent commentary, you are writing pretty much what I have been wanting to write for a while now. You hit the nail on the head - all the way.

Cudos, thanks for your post.

Cheers!

Potato IQ
Posted - 2011.08.16 09:57:00 - [54]
 

I can see your point Cipher, but I have to disagree and add to Medolus post 13

A survival report will appear for any new content pretty quickly, so the unknown element is removed. Add sleeper AI and your taking away part of the challenge that WH offer as well as simply forcing the pilot to over-tank ‘just in case’ If they don’t, they lose their ships too frequently and quit. Regardless of what you think of the HS dweller, they are still paying subscribers that are needed in the game

Improve the PvE value balance. Lvl 4 missioning, and HS incursions from what I’m reading on payments, need to be far less lucrative. There is too much of a blur between HS and other area gains

I really think this is where the nerf bat really needs to be let loose, as the 5 year plan suggests, and looks to be pretty well structured IMO

Thornat
Posted - 2011.08.16 10:57:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Thornat on 16/08/2011 10:59:33
Edited by: Thornat on 16/08/2011 10:57:29
I don't disagree with the OP, I think making a PvE content challenging should be a design goal but the truth is that Eve is a PvP game. When this game was released the design spoke for itself. "Here is some PvE to learn to play the game, when your done, use your knowledge to PvP". I don't know if CCP ever came out and said it in so many words, but as it is PVE is only challenging up to a certain point. Once you skill up enough and learn how to tank, fly your ship and in general fly well, PvE content becomes easy for you. Take a 3 day old nub to a low sec asteroid and they won't even be able to survive a simple rat fight.

So its just perspective but your view that PvE content is easy is one of an experianced player that has learned to handle it. PvE in WH space is a walk in the park for me, most of the time I'm watching a movie, talking to my friends on the phone and casually changing targets when stuff pops. So for all the talk that WH is hard, as a 6 year old character for me its already become a rather automatic, non threathning place.

I think Eve is a PvP game, PvE content and everything else really is their to use to make ISK, learn the skills of the game both as a character and player and than eventually starting thinking about how you are going to apply those skills to the real game out in low sec and null sec. If your in this game without that appriciation and goal, what you are going to discover is that in many ways as a PvE only player this game is not really any different than World of Warcraft. Once you get all the dope gear, get all your ship maxed and learn how to play well, it becomes quite easy.

People who don't PvP in Eve to me are really just victims and thats usually what they sound like when they discover that like it or not everyone has to PvP sooner or later in Eve. They cry about it and get upset and I often ask them very nicely. Why do you play Eve if you don't want to PvP? What did you think was going to happen when you start a corp with a reputation of not being able to fight yet knows how to earn ISK. Of course people will war dec you, they want easy victims and they want your ISK.

To me this is all obvious stuff, I find it hard to believe that their are people out their that still play Eve under the impression they won't have to PvP.

Cunane Jeran
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.16 10:59:00 - [56]
 

+1

Adonis Peverell
Posted - 2011.08.16 11:05:00 - [57]
 

+1

Assaj Ventress
Posted - 2011.08.16 11:36:00 - [58]
 

I like the idea, but you should think about missions in low and null. They already have risks from other players. If you add more risks from NPCs, you shoulb boost the rewards (or much better - nerf rewards in high sec). But after they removed agent quality I feel they won't go this way

Chimera Ur
Nibado Inc
Posted - 2011.08.16 11:44:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Alpheias
People crying about PVE in a PVP-centric game should just **** off to games that was made for them in the first place.


PvE is what keeps the minerals flowing that buy the toys to PvP in. When they make PvE impossible soon enough mineral prices will skyrocket. Seeing the amount of rats being killed daily I don't even agree that this is a PvP-centric game at all. It's a sandbox game where people can just do whatever the hell they want.

Chimera Ur
Nibado Inc
Posted - 2011.08.16 11:47:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Worstluck


Nullsec does not need buffing, high sec just needs to be made more challenging.


You can't simply make level 4's 'harder'. This would just lead to people doing level 3's longer untill they can put a fit together that is 'good enough' for L4's. People will always pick the route with the best risk/reward in PvE. If you have a 50% of losing a 100M BS ever level 4 mission no one will run them anymore.

To me it seems that coop-PvE that's 'harder' is already available in L5's and incursions. I don't see the benefit of making L4's more time consuming (because that's what will happen if you make them 'harder', it will just take longer to complete).


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