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Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.08.15 07:10:00 - [1]
 

Bringing super capitals into the game was a mistake. Let's just get that out of the way right now. You know it, I know it and CCP knows it. A mistake.

The game was simply not ready for it and CCP was not ready to be at the ready to make the adjustments needed, when they were needed, to make sure things didn't get redonkulous like they are now. It actually falls right under this statement right here:
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Doing something just "because it would be cool/neat/awesome" is always a bad idea and will come back to bite you later.

Bite us in the ass is an understatement. And hard. *ouch* They were intended to be alliance assets. Out of the 500 titans (pretty sure we are at 500 right?) and the OMFGIDONTKNOWHOWMANY number of super carriers, how many are actually owned by the alliance? Two? That's right they are bought and paid for by bots the players. Players can in fact, given a decent amount of motivation acquire, and decently fit (some of you suck at fitting a super btw, lol) out a super capital. In null sec all one blob does to the other is do a dance and see who presses the I win, u mad? button the fastest all the while pointing fingers at each other saying, "Well if you didn't bring that Falcon and salvaging Catalyst your Tempest would be alive now wouldn't it?!"

With some :effort: from CCP, yes CCP YOU, and acceptance from the players, all of this problem can be fixed. Simply remove super capitals. **GASP!!** I know it has been tossed around before, but let us be realistic. The sheer amounts of problems they cause in balancing the rest of the game is not worth it. Of course if this was to happen then super capital owners and those who have built characters for solely to pilot them or train the skills for them would need to compensated.

To do this several key things would need to happen.

  • Every account gets ONE free character trade. I will explain why this is important later.

  • All related skill have every skill point returned and available for redistribution immediately.

  • Everything fitted onto the super capital is removed and placed as a gift item that the player can redeem at any station in the galaxy of their choosing.

  • The mineral equivalent of an unresearched BPO with the minimum skill needed to start the job in minerals for the super capital, is placed as a gift item that the player can redeem at any station in the galaxy of their choosing.

  • API is updated to show available skill points to be distributed.

  • All BPOs, BPCs and all related super capital POS modules are reimbursed for the full ISK amount. If it is a researched BPO, a fair formula is devised to compensate the time put into it.

  • Once CCP officially says they will reverse super capitals, players with accounts that have super capital skills are free to cancel that account.

  • Any payments made in advance are immediately returned. A month up to a year or whatever is returned.

  • Once it hits Tranquility, the same accounts can be petitioned to have their former super capital character transferred.



Now I am sure there might be a few other things, but you get the idea. With the free character trades, players can transfer their former super capital pilot to their main. From there they can blow all the skill points on something else or hell, maybe not transfer at all and keep the second account (more?). Or they can list the character displaying all the available skill points that are ready to be spent in the character bazaar.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.08.15 07:10:00 - [2]
 

The point is that the super capital mistake can be reversed. Of course not to a perfect state of happy-happy-go-lucky-joy-joy-fun-land, but it would be an absolute **** ton better than this crap we have now. This game is simply not ready; it may never be. Hell CCP, did you even ask yourself does EVE need super capitals? That probably falls under the linked statement above which I totally agree with. Super capitals seemed cool at the time, but they are definably not anymore. With them gone, the game will become a lot easier to balance. Ships, sovereignty, you name it. And donít give me that, ďBut, but, but how are we supposed to grind down 15 gazillion hit point sovereignty structures?Ē bull **** excuse. That is a separate issue.

So put your pride in check CCP. Admit it was a mistake. Grow the balls needed (effort?) to code/program/I donít care how you do it. Players be man and deal with it. There will be a few butt hurt players who just canít deal with a change for the better and quit the game, but know for a fact there will be scores more who would resubscribe and take their place.

I guess the TL;DR for you fat, lazy, cupcake devouring, living in your grandmothers basement is; if CCP was able to come up with an extremely fair system to remove super capitals from the game without completely screwing over the players who have invested their time and money into that part of the game; would you as the player welcome it with open arms? Even if you donít like my method of accomplishing it.

P.S. Ė And yes I have owned a Nyx before. It was fun for a while, but even then I recognized how stupid super capitals were then. And no, it didnít die.

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.15 07:16:00 - [3]
 

Does your 5 day reactivation expire today or tomorrow?

Gwenywell Shumuku
Posted - 2011.08.15 07:17:00 - [4]
 

The problem are not supercaps in general, and it was a "sound concept" at the time. The PROBLEM was and is thinking ISK is a limiting factor.

IT NEVER IS, once something is worth purchasing, players will grind for it.

Once in a time building outposts was expensive, same as SCs and Titans. Now look at the map, in some regions there is a station in EVERY DAMN 0.0 SYSTEM. WTF.

Outposts need to be destructable, SCs and Titan reduced to some support role that you can field with delay timers so they can't be used as "fast intercepting gang ship"...
But whatever, a rock/paper/scissor principle would work too....Capitals are the only ships that somehow dont follow this...

Hilmar stated that they will never do rollbacks, so i doubt they will rollback Supercaps or Titans in any way.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.08.15 07:18:00 - [5]
 

Just nerf them into the ground then I still get to kill them.

shellree
Minmatar
Screaming Meercats
Posted - 2011.08.15 07:19:00 - [6]
 

you mad bro? me thinks you have a alt in -A- lolz hows hed-gp now? yummy tears gimme moar.

Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2011.08.15 07:22:00 - [7]
 

You don't need to remove SC's. You only need to make them alliance assets again. Make it so that they require some very rare substance to obtain, that has limited supply determined by current stock of SC's and SC's in production.

fgft Athonille
Posted - 2011.08.15 07:23:00 - [8]
 

this should be renamed how to post like a whiner scrub whos mad he cant afford nice things

Sterling Severasse
Posted - 2011.08.15 07:27:00 - [9]
 

CCP is about as interested in fixing EVE as they are the people who play this dying relic of a game...null.

They're making money. ****, they barely bother to respond to the player base these days, much less listen to it.

Spacing Cowboy
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.15 07:31:00 - [10]
 

Not going to comment about the removal plan itself, but...

What about super-holder toons, suport toons specific trained for the goal ect...

Then the minerals, releasing those back in the pool would implode the market for years.

Personally, i would see more in a dread boost, make them super-killers in small numbers ( example, 3 dreads kill a super just as quick 3 supers kill a carrier )

CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.15 08:24:00 - [11]
 

Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.


Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2011.08.15 09:21:00 - [12]
 

I fully support this idea.

Heck, this step alone will instantly recover my faith in CCP.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.15 10:14:00 - [13]
 

dunno if removal of supers would change anything.
There will be always a top tier ship, which will be spammed all over the universe if required.
If those werent titans and moms, those would be carriers.. or battleships. Masses of battleships... But you would remove a long term motivation for many players if all you need could be reached within 2 months.

Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
Posted - 2011.08.15 10:30:00 - [14]
 

Like it

Well thought out, expressed and delivered. Made the plan execution easy and straight forward outlining repercussions.
Given the state of play - I would do it.

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.08.15 10:31:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Fon Revedhort
I fully support this idea.

Heck, this step alone will instantly recover my faith in CCP.


It could cement my conviction that they don't know what they are doing. Get Dr Eyjo in here to tell you what would happen to the minerals market if 500 titans work of trit hit it in one go.

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2011.08.15 10:31:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 15/08/2011 10:32:33
Originally by: Robert Caldera
dunno if removal of supers would change anything.
There will be always a top tier ship, which will be spammed all over the universe if required.
If those werent titans and moms, those would be carriers.. or battleships. Masses of battleships... But you would remove a long term motivation for many players if all you need could be reached within 2 months.


Then those poor souls need to revise their sources of motivation. Playing a MMO game just to get the biggest ship? Are you really serious?

There's nothing wrong with battleships being spammed all over the place, btw. They don't make another classes obsolete.

Colt Mitri
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.08.15 10:45:00 - [17]
 

If they are initially intended to be Alliance assets, could you not simply make that a requirement?
Say for example the Alliance leader has to train the skill "Alliance Pilot Management" each level of which raises the number of pilots in the Alliance that can fly Super-Capitals, then distribute this via roles to whoever you want to pilot the Super-Capital at the time, the most any Alliance could ever field at a time would then be 5.

To fly a Super-Capital then, you must be in an Alliance with the above skill, train skills required, and have the previous mentioned role.

The fluidity of the role requirement would most likely prevent people from buying there own, as they could only fly one when allowed.

I don't know anything about Alliances, 0.0 warfare and such... does it show?

Youra PirateHooker
Posted - 2011.08.15 10:58:00 - [18]
 

The easiest solution would be to buff dreads enough to make a few of them able to kill moms. The dread has become a useless ship, they are very rarely deployed as they don't have much of a role. It'd be nice to get rid of the stupid siege mode, give them full dps and make them unable to to hit subcaps. Every ship should have an effective counter. The only effective counter to a blob of moms is a bigger blob of moms.

carriers are capital class fleet logistick --> moms kill carriers --> dreads kill moms --> Titans are, well titans. I honestly dont have a prob with titans atm. lol

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:12:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Fon Revedhort

Then those poor souls need to revise their sources of motivation. Playing a MMO game just to get the biggest ship? Are you really serious?

yes, I'm serious. However, I meant not the biggest ship but the most useful/required in alliance warfare. I assumed the case all (super)capitals are removed or made useless, then the battleship would be that top tier ship for sov-warfare, everyone needed to train if involved in sov wars. Nobody with a little brain would train for a useless supercapital anymore.

Amsterdam Conversations
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:16:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Amsterdam Conversations on 15/08/2011 11:18:12
Originally by: Youra PirateHooker
The easiest solution would be to buff dreads enough to make a few of them able to kill moms. The dread has become a useless ship, they are very rarely deployed as they don't have much of a role. It'd be nice to get rid of the stupid siege mode, give them full dps and make them unable to to hit subcaps. Every ship should have an effective counter. The only effective counter to a blob of moms is a bigger blob of moms.

carriers are capital class fleet logistick --> moms kill carriers --> dreads kill moms --> Titans are, well titans. I honestly dont have a prob with titans atm. lol


No.

Nerf supers.

Dreads & carriers were a much used fleet ship before Dominion, in fact you'd see fleet battles of hundreds of caps, that was when EVE was still a little better (the sov system, too). Losing a cap wasn't a terribly big blow even back then due to insurance (max half a bil), today the least you're looking at is... 15b?

Dreads had & have their counters, carriers had dreads and even subcaps as counters. Then supercarriers came countering both by a tenfold multiplier, while being able to defend against any subcapital ship too.

Supers are broken, not normal capitals.

The only issue I'd have with removing supers is the removal of game content. Especially since it's that bling content for rich players.

Alissa Solette
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:16:00 - [21]
 

I don't think that removing super caps by pumping insane amounts of ISK into the market (spawned from nowhere) is gonna be very good for the economy. Besides causing inflation it would also totally destabilize the minerals market because suddenly there would be 100 million BS worth of minerals available on the market (which was farmed by players initially but was never "intended" to be all sold virtually at the same time).

It also totally screws up people that already spent heaps of time and/or money to buy a super cap (even with your suggestions on how to mitigate that loss).

I don't own a super so personally I couldn't care less if they're removed but I think CCP would be in for a **** storm the likes that EVE has never witnessed before. Just think back about that dev blog that only suggested to "nerf" supers (by turning all "motherships" into "supercarriers")... the whines were insane back then.

Also, CCP doesn't really want to **** with their best customers (such as super pilots) because they all have 3-5 accounts minimum and are usually not lonesome carebears but important alliance people that are both willing and able to harm this game a great deal if someone starts forcing them to eat the cat **** in the sandbox.

Youra PirateHooker
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:26:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Amsterdam Conversations
Edited by: Amsterdam Conversations on 15/08/2011 11:18:12
Originally by: Youra PirateHooker
The easiest solution would be to buff dreads enough to make a few of them able to kill moms. The dread has become a useless ship, they are very rarely deployed as they don't have much of a role. It'd be nice to get rid of the stupid siege mode, give them full dps and make them unable to to hit subcaps. Every ship should have an effective counter. The only effective counter to a blob of moms is a bigger blob of moms.

carriers are capital class fleet logistick --> moms kill carriers --> dreads kill moms --> Titans are, well titans. I honestly dont have a prob with titans atm. lol


No.

Nerf supers.

Dreads & carriers were a much used fleet ship before Dominion, in fact you'd see fleet battles of hundreds of caps, that was when EVE was still a little better (the sov system, too). Losing a cap wasn't a terribly big blow even back then due to insurance (max half a bil), today the least you're looking at is... 15b?

Dreads had & have their counters, carriers had dreads and even subcaps as counters. Then supercarriers came countering both by a tenfold multiplier, while being able to defend against any subcapital ship too.

Supers are broken, not normal capitals.

The only issue I'd have with removing supers is the removal of game content. Especially since it's that bling content for rich players.


I'm well aware of how things used to be. I was involved in many of those. I fly a mom now as a matter of fact. They can't nerf moms back to what they used to be. They need a nerf yes, and dreads need a buff. Perhaps meeting in the middle. Even if 5 dreads were lost for every mom kill, the dread fleet still wins the isk war. Regardless of what is done, people with cry and emo rage/quit.

Lin-Young Borovskova
Posted - 2011.08.15 13:01:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Gwenywell Shumuku
The problem are not supercaps in general, and it was a "sound concept" at the time. The PROBLEM was and is thinking ISK is a limiting factor.

IT NEVER IS, once something is worth purchasing, players will grind for it.


Capitals/supers/titans should be alliance assets so, either they're not expensive enough or not requiring enough sp, maybe both.
Also cheap to build, make them need a lot more of T1/T2/T3 minerals etc.

Make the nerds get the credit card out to have pimped/gimped end game ships and be afraid of loosing them, atm they don't even care to salvage after a fight (Shadoo words on Eve tv)

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2011.08.15 13:49:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Fon Revedhort

Then those poor souls need to revise their sources of motivation. Playing a MMO game just to get the biggest ship? Are you really serious?

yes, I'm serious. However, I meant not the biggest ship but the most useful/required in alliance warfare. I assumed the case all (super)capitals are removed or made useless, then the battleship would be that top tier ship for sov-warfare, everyone needed to train if involved in sov wars. Nobody with a little brain would train for a useless supercapital anymore.

As already stated, there's nothing wrong with battleships being top-tier vessel. They can be countered in so many ways that there's no point even in listing those up.

There would be nothing wrong with supers being top-tier either, should they be balanced. Here's a brief summary:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1560795&page=21#622

No one suggests making supercaps useless. They will either have their new precisely defined role or get removed from the game altogether. Either way will improve the game tremendously.

Btw, what's the next step in your paradigm for those already having supers? I guess they don't have a goal to long for any longer? Would be awesome to see them finally leaving the game en masse Very Happy

Kendra Coldera
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:08:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Kendra Coldera on 15/08/2011 14:09:46
This is a VERY ******ed solution.

Why?

Minerals injected into the market + deadspace/officer loot injected will cause both to crash HARD and the Isk Injection will be killing Dr. Eyojg or how its spelled.

Oh also: Character market crashes hard.

freshspree
Caldari
Dissonance Corp
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:51:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: freshspree on 15/08/2011 14:56:39
Lots of jelly in your thread and I'm not surprised at all. Increasing the cost price of the SC is the best way, take it or leave it.

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:42:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: freshspree
Edited by: freshspree on 15/08/2011 14:56:39
Lots of jelly in your thread and I'm not surprised at all. Increasing the cost price of the SC is the best way, take it or leave it.


That's not the best way. A titan costs 40 billion ISK to build - if someone has to grind up more than that to get into one, they will.

Reicine Ceer
Rodents of Unusual Size
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:13:00 - [28]
 

I would have thought that having them as a limited asset to Alliances would be the logical option.

For example, should there be an alteration to the game where an Alliance is only allowed to have, say, 10 maximum at a time, limited through whatever means and with an overlong replacement period (as 'the stick'), then changes to how the ship itself works wouldn't be necessary.

From a non-alliance person on the outside looking in, id've thought this option would force Alliances to carefully consider SC deployment, which'd in turn lead to more tactical use of SCs in general.

If im horribly wrong, would appreciate an explanation as to why this wouldn't work :)

freshspree
Caldari
Dissonance Corp
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:29:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Andski
Originally by: freshspree
Edited by: freshspree on 15/08/2011 14:56:39
Lots of jelly in your thread and I'm not surprised at all. Increasing the cost price of the SC is the best way, take it or leave it.


That's not the best way. A titan costs 40 billion ISK to build - if someone has to grind up more than that to get into one, they will.


My point of view, which I think is pretty objective will effectively reduce the number of available supercarriers and it would have limited their numbers now if it costs as much as a titan which is fair for the performance, also, Eve is expanding, there's bound to be more supers than ever.
The thread so far hasn't been able to prove why they should be nerfed other than I can't be bothered getting one to have a go at succeeding in a super duel which is... lame. I take it that there's a lot of variety in the subcap level that doesn't exist in caps.

P.S. What happened to your supers?Very Happy




Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:36:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Aloe Cloveris on 15/08/2011 18:36:32
Erase supercarriers. Refund nothing.

EVE is harsh.


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