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Moozh Vozmozhno
Posted - 2011.08.13 02:46:00 - [1]
 

I've noticed most Tengu fittings are for Kin/Therm rats like Guristas which are very easy to get amazing tank against.

However doing L4s I need to be able to fit for a variety of damage.

I just had to warp out with my Tengu in a mission that my alt could tank fine in a passive Drake with the same hardeners and only 5M SP (the mission was Silence the Informant, mercenary room). And my alt could pull groups 1 & 2 and be ok, the Tengu is almost dying against group 1 alone.

The reasons seem to be that there are many webifiers so my afterburner is useless, my sig radius isn't helping me since it's mostly frigates/cruisers (not BC/BS), and finally the Tengu tank seems more dependent on high resists as opposed to pure repair throughput.

Seems like the only way I can get good tank against non Kinetic/Thermal NPCs is to buy really expensive shield boosters. I'm using one worth about 180mil, I don't want to fit too much ISK in modules because it puts a "GANK ME" sign on my back in mission hubs.

Here's my fitting...

[Tengu, L4]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

10MN Afterburner II
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
[Rat Specific Hardener II]
[Rat Specific Hardener II]
[Rat Specific Hardener II]

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir

Bloutok
Posted - 2011.08.13 03:11:00 - [2]
 

Hello. I ran mind bugling amounts of L4 high sec missions using this. Always fly away from the rats. With practice, i do not change the hardeners at all anymore. The eccm is for those missions with lot's of Caldari rats.

If you want more DPS. 3 Caldari navy BCU will help. If you do not like the tank. a Dread Guristas / Caldari navy invulnerability will also help. But none of those are required.

Keep in mind that FURY missiles do the least amount of damage to frigates. And that a Tengu as a 100km + range, do not stay 10km from the rats.

Zor's implants might help for speed also and how high are your afterburner skills ? Because if rats catch up to you, you are doing something wrong. Maybe a Republic fleet 10mn afterburner?

[Tengu, Missions]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

10MN Afterburner II
ECCM - Gravimetric II
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Large Shield Extender II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

Moozh Vozmozhno
Posted - 2011.08.13 04:23:00 - [3]
 

I fly about 589 M/S. With all Level V skills I'd be going around 633 M/S. In this mission I immediately flew away from the rats after warping in but the rats caught me. The Spider Drones go over 3000 M/S and the frigates go 900 M/S...

I don't like the idea of flying in such a way where if I get webbed, I have to warp out or I'm dead (and pray I don't get scrambled). I also don't want to have to snipe and kite NPCs. I'm fine with speed tanking by orbiting my objectives, but I don't want to have to fly out to 100km+ all the time.

Your build seems pretty much dependent on never getting hit. I'd rather kill stuff while heading straight for my objective to not waste any time.

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2011.08.13 04:30:00 - [4]
 

Silence the Informant is just a royal pain in the ass and damn near impossible to speed tank -- and a Tengu does rely on speed to tank. It's also one of the few missions that throws that much difficulty pulling it off. I'd consider declining it. It's not as if the payout is all that great anyhow.

Moozh Vozmozhno
Posted - 2011.08.13 04:44:00 - [5]
 

Yeah I figured it was just a perfect storm scenario, just funny how it ended up being the first mission I did in my Tengu lol.

Gavin DeVries
Posted - 2011.08.13 04:58:00 - [6]
 

This is what I used to use in missions. I've done Silence The Informant multiple times over with this exact fit.

[Tengu, Mission]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Shield Boost Amplifier II
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay

I've since upgraded the rigs, but it still works. In the merc room, as soon as I'd land I'd turn 180 and head towards where the auto-aggro group spawns and kill it. Then I'd kill the group around the acceleration gate. Then I'd kill the close group above and finish off with the far group. In all cases the webbers die first. Most of the time I'd kill off the merc wingmen in the gate group and if I still had regular scourges loaded I'd start on the spider drones of the next group, then when they were dead I'd switch to fury and finish off both.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.08.13 06:15:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 13/08/2011 06:16:33
Silence The Informant is one of the nastiest missions for a Tengu because of that swarm of webbers. I usually just decline it, since it's terrible ISK/hr and always seems to be 3-4 jumps away.

You Tengu should easily tank even Sansha/Blood missions with 1 Invuln + 2x EM hardeners fitted. For Merc/Drone missions I'd go with 2x Invuln + 1 EM. I also use a medium shield booster (Domination in my Empire Tengu).

EDIT: And you absolutely should be using Rigors to kill those webbers. You can passive tank 90% of the time if you can keep your speed up, but killing webbers is your #1 priority.

Bloutok
Posted - 2011.08.13 14:33:00 - [8]
 

Like i said, with experience, ALL L4 missions are easy. About that mission, I turn 90 degrees to the right and always kill the frigs first. I do not remember the last time i had to warp out of a mission......

NoNah
Posted - 2011.08.13 14:49:00 - [9]
 

Your issue relies much more in not being able to kill your opponents than not being able to tank them. Use normal t1(or if you're scared faction) missiles, fit rigors or even flares and blow the frigates up. Manage your aggro. Oh, and don't use accelerated ejection bays unless their main resistance hole is more than 72-73% of the kinetic resistance.

IE if it has 0% EM and 30% kinetic, you're better off using rifling patterns.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.13 17:09:00 - [10]
 

Because a 7.5% RoF bonus equals a 5%?

NoNah
Posted - 2011.08.13 17:19:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
Because a 7.5% RoF bonus equals a 5%?


Because 5 t2 hobgoblins outperform half an effective launcher.

RavenPaine
Posted - 2011.08.13 18:08:00 - [12]
 

Your fit should be close enough to do the job. I fly almost the same fit regularly.

2 things I see will help.
Precision missiles should be loaded on warp in. Kill the frigs first and then switch out.

Large shield booster. Don't get stuck in the "cap stable" rut. You never want to say "I died, but I had 80% of my cap left !"

Also, you might try 3 Balistic Controls and a Damage Control II for a little more resist.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.13 18:39:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 13/08/2011 18:39:08
Originally by: NoNah
Because 5 t2 hobgoblins outperform half an effective launcher.


One full launcher, actually. ACB tengu = 9(12 kinetic) launchers. Rifling = 8 launchers. So you're turning down a 12.5% DPS increase for a flight of light drones.

That's questionably useful even in the best of circumstances, much less worth switching subsystems for.

Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2011.08.13 19:07:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 13/08/2011 19:18:24
I always fit (never refit for anything else) the omni tank (invul II and active EM hardener, that's it, will replace with passive once I get the skills high enough) and never had any problem tanking any lvl4 mission. maybe you should train your skills...

silence the informant is as easy as everything else, in fact even if they had the firepower to break my omni tank, they don't have their own tank enough to shoot long enough to do this. cruisers (they deal the most damage) die to 2 or 3 volleys so i don't see what the problem is ... maybe you fit the wrong hardeners or forgot to turn them on? i mean to die to those guys you have to fly in a velator perhaps or an ibis, how can you die to them in a tengu is beyond me unless you use unfitted hull.


Oh wait, you use the fury missiles? there's your problem. that crap increases your sig so you take more damage and cant tank. so just use faction missiles when you warp into that pocket adn you should be fine. to finish them faster you might also want to use much fasster faction launchers but religious beliefs might contradict with this practice so i don't insist.

ha! you also have CCC rigs. Why on earth would you want to use those? I never ever run out of cap running everything on my tengu and I only have cap rec II fitted. Maybe you should train cap skills and perhaps get faction hardeners (pretty cheap but they reduce cap consumption) and RF AB (consumes much less than II, boosts a bit more speed). Also with furies and without explosion radius rigs you certainly do have problem killing the cruisers. Maybe that's why you cant kill those 2 volley-with-a-faction-ammo cruisers fast enough to survive... Maybe you even reload precisions to kill the frigs instead of finishing the cruisers first... Well, then its no wonder you die to that simple mission.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.13 20:22:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 13/08/2011 20:24:16
Yeah. It was one CCC, which gives less cap than your CR2. You're actually using more in the way of capacitor mods than he is (or I am), because midslots are more useful than rig slots.

A painter helps a heck of a lot more than a rigor does. It doesn't take a lot of math to realize this.

Edit: And as a matter of fact, many people do hop into Tengus with substandard skills. They're a moderately expensive ship with a very low barrier to entry and a quick return on invested SP. That appeals to newer players, and fittings reflect that.

Etto Neppeo
ENACO
Posted - 2011.08.13 20:52:00 - [16]
 


Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2011.08.13 21:06:00 - [17]
 

so why waste rig slots on capacitor if you can use one cap rec instead for better effect?

and its not 1 rigor, its 2 t2 rigors, i doubt its effect is less than one painter.
Painter increases sig for 30% (with falloff so its only partly effective), one t2 rigor is -20% for the missile radius (and this number is unaffected by range). however, and you get 2 t2 and 1 t1 rigs to fit so even with stacking penalty it's much better than the painter and with no need to waste cap and switch from target to target.

for example let's assume 50m sig and 100m explosion radius. increasing 50 by 30% brings it to 65 so its 65/100=0.65 of the explosion radius. now if we instead decrease explosion radius by 20% we get 80m explosion and it's 50/80=0.625 which is already very close to painter's figure, and we have another 2 rigors to take into account which even with stacking penalty will give much better results than 1 painter you suggest instead.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.13 21:46:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Moozh Vozmozhno

10MN Afterburner II
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
[Rat Specific Hardener II]
[Rat Specific Hardener II]
[Rat Specific Hardener II]




With a Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster:
Angel - 2x SBAII, 1x Invul, 1x Expl
Sansha/Blood Raiders - 2x SBAII, 2x EM
Serpentis - 2x SBAII, 1xKin, 1x Therm

For 'Silence the Informant' I think I use an omni tank of 2xSBAII, 1xEM, 1xInvul. On a side note, use kinetic missiles on 'Elite Drone Parasites'. They're surprisingly resistant to EM and weak to everything else.


Moozh Vozmozhno
Posted - 2011.08.13 22:50:00 - [19]
 

I was definitely using the wrong hardeners... fitted Kinetic/Thermal for mercenaries, but this group was mostly EM/thermal damage so that hurt.

I went back with EM/thermal hardeners and killed the cruisers first instead of the frigs and didn't go below 95%.

I'm sure I can try all of these various fittings for different scenarios (ECCM for jamming missions, drones against frigs, rigor rigs, etc.) I think that's a waste of time to micromanage. The time you save by having slightly better DPS with a more mission-specific fitting ends up being wasted reading up on the mission particulars and refitting your ship perfectly. I don't mind swapping specific hardeners but having to juggle a complete refit in EFT is a bit much.

Maybe I'll try making a different fitting for each mission in the Fitting Manager.

I actually multi-task a lot while missioning and while it's great to say "fit rigors so you kill stuff faster so you don't die", you can't kill stuff when you're jammed or distracted by RL stuff. I haven't taken the time to analyze the cost/benefit value of the different faction mods, but I will most likely fit a few more to lower cap usage to change my rigs. I just want to keep my fittings below the "loot pinata" threshold that attracts pirates.

Moozh Vozmozhno
Posted - 2011.08.13 23:01:00 - [20]
 

I guess webbing + jamming is really the only scenario in which I might die so I'll probably look for an ECCM fitting setup.

Would you say that one ECCM module (using the Dissolution Sequencer subsystem) is enough for any mission?

RUF993
Posted - 2011.08.13 23:10:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: RUF993 on 13/08/2011 23:16:14
Edited by: RUF993 on 13/08/2011 23:10:58
Stop the Thief (similar) - warp to 0m cancel warp, re-warp to mission at 70km.

Rigs - 2 warhead flares and 1 medium bay loading accelerator II. Use a cap flux coil if you don't have peak cap skills.

I use an invuln + photon hardener with a target painter in the mids. You will never have to change it.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.13 23:25:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
so why waste rig slots on capacitor if you can use one cap rec instead for better effect?


Because you're only using one CCC, and already have two rigor catalyst II's? And target painters are anywhere from a 30% to 37.5% paint, depending on skills. That's a heck of a lot better than 20% reduction in explosion radius, especially since you're not hitting penalties if you only have one.

Moozh Vozmozhno
Posted - 2011.08.13 23:33:00 - [23]
 

Target painters are also a pain in the ass to micromanage, especially when they have a 10 second cycle and your weapons fire every 3.8 seconds...

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.13 23:40:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Moozh Vozmozhno
Target painters are also a pain in the ass to micromanage, especially when they have a 10 second cycle and your weapons fire every 3.8 seconds...


Conveniently, most targets you shoot at will take full damage. Choosing your targets appropriately will let you paint the ones that need it, and leave the ones that don't.

Moozh Vozmozhno
Posted - 2011.08.14 00:39:00 - [25]
 

Well thanks for the input guys, here's what I'm going to use now:

[Tengu, L4s]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
ECCM - Gravimetric II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir

- Around 700 dps tank vs Guristas (350 for Sansha/Blood Raiders)
- Sensor strength of 68
- Explosion radius of about 103 for Fury, and 53 for Precision missiles

Do you guys think that 300-400 dps tank will be enough provided I'm not webbed?

Should I use 2 Rigors or 1 Rigor 1 Flare? I assume Flares are better against frigates but they help less against cruisers... so you'd be safer against webbing but overall will do less damage on the average mission. When my skills are higher I can use three DPS rigs so I might use 2x Rigor 1x Flare.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.14 01:33:00 - [26]
 

Since they nerfed NPC ECM so thoroughly, you could almost certainly get away without it, especially because of the Tengu's dissolution sequencer subsystem.

A target painter would be a worthwhile substitution.

Bloutok
Posted - 2011.08.14 02:36:00 - [27]
 

If a rat frig needs 3 volleys to explode and you add a target painter and the frig still needs 3 volleys, no point. Second, using the target painter on the few that could explode 1 volley faster is a pain in the butt. Note here i have never found 1 to go from 3 to 2 volleys. But then, my painter skills were poor ;)

There is a mission, forgot the name, that is only caldari ships. 4 BS + some cruisers on long range and 2 frigs when you get in with a re spawn at super extra long range. Those will get a jam on you even with the eccm. But i will say that most missions do not requires it. Since DPS mostly determines how fast you run missions and since i can run all the missions without changing the DPS and fittings then it got to a point where the target painter went the way of the Dodo.


 

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