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blankseplocked petition to bring back 15km warp in
 
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LittleTerror
Day Unhappy Security Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:49:00 - [181]
 

Edited by: LittleTerror on 15/08/2011 16:58:34
Originally by: Viceroy
WTZ was a terrible solution to instajumps that removed the databse cluttering while reinforcing the actual game breaking aspect of instajumps; that they provide super fast, super safe travel at no cost and require extraordinary effort to counter. This in turn made EVE much much smaller than it used to be, and made every ship roughly the same in terms of travel speed and safety, greatly reducing tactical, strategic and logistical variation and basically dumbing the game down so that carebears could have faster access to more content without as much risk.....


Good post and very valid points.

But damn there are some stupid comments in this thread and probably my own fault for not making myself more clear, I'm really not bothered about whether I can gank people on gates. I'm just ****ed at the fact people can just magically move stuff from A to B with almost no effort or planning but that's not even what ****es me off the most...

The thing that WTZ really killed was locality, back then everything was very local, each area had its own local pirates, anti pirates and bears and that made the game very immersive and what made the game special.

When WTZ was introduced it was like EVE lost its soul and ever since then its been in decline as more and more of it is dumbed down for the stupid and lazy.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:22:00 - [182]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 15/08/2011 12:22:41
If you want ship size to matter with travel speed you shouldnt do something stupid like removing WTZ, but adjust warp speeds and make warp acceleration (so not alligning, but the actual in warp acceleration) depend on your max warp speed (simply scaling it would work). Problem fixed.


Btw at raiden/pl saying it would make eve larger, how about first nerfing your travel methods: jump drives and titan bridges? They are alot faster than gate travel.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:55:00 - [183]
 

Edited by: Avon on 15/08/2011 16:55:55
Originally by: Furb Killer

Btw at raiden/pl saying it would make eve larger, how about first nerfing your travel methods: jump drives and titan bridges? They are alot faster than gate travel.


You must have missed the bit where I agreed they should be removed too, along with jump clones. I have no problem with that.

Speed of travel should relate to the flying speed of your ship, not the magical tweaking of warp speeds or alignment time.

With a larger differential in travel times for different ship types and the way they are fitted you:

1. Reduce the force projection of 0.0 alliances, restricting them to claiming only the space they populate and their immediate borders.

2. Make trading a viable career (also see below as to why)

3. Open up the possibility of regional development (in all security sectors). This could mean that, for example, Gallente characters get a bonus to manufacturing Gallente items (ships / blasters / holoreels :P) in Gallente stations, and a bigger bonus for doing it in the "right" station (owning corp) in Gallente space - also taking standings in to account. Stations could have reserves of priority factory slots for qualifying characters.
You could introduce import tarrifs on goods from other factions based on the security rating of the system (tax evasion in low-sec ftw) thus reducing the profitablity of central homogeneous trade hubs.
The potential for creating a more vibrant Eve is huge, but can't be done while travel times are trivial.

That is why I want WTZ gone, and I would happily give up jump clones and jump bridges to see it happen.

People often claim that the removal of WTZ is only called for by priates and gankers, but those people lack vision.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.08.15 19:51:00 - [184]
 

Not only no but hell no. This is a stupid idea. If your fail ass can't catch a target on the other side of the gate you don't deserve the kill.

Maxpie
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
Posted - 2011.08.15 23:39:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Bologna Brains
Originally by: Maxpie
Ah, this thread brings back memories...

-Sitting on a gate, bored to tears, waiting to pop the rare traveler who didn't have instas just so corpmates could feel good about themselves

-Spending countless hours making instas. I became quite good at it actually

-Not traveling anywhere in lowsec or 0.0 without first making instas in a shuttle

-Rarely leaving my home system in high-sec, unless I had instas to the destination, because of the utter boredom involved in traveling

No. Sorry. I doubt I'd still be playing this game if WTZ had not been introduced.


All of which you would never have to do if bookmarks are not creatable within 100km of jumpgates. ;)



You miss the point. If I have to sit there and watch my ship crawl to every gate/station, etc., I will want to cry. In fact, I'll probably cry out of boredom. After that I will evaluate whether watching my ship crawl into a station is more fun than watching paint dry. Clearly watching paint dry is more fun, so I will quit Eve and take up paint watching in my recreational time.

Stuff that adds boredom 99% of the time is not worth it, even if that other 1% of the time it gives some lazy noob a chance to get a gank he otherwise might have used his brain to obtain.

Oglyn
Posted - 2011.08.16 00:45:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Maxpie

You miss the point. If I have to sit there and watch my ship crawl to every gate/station, etc., I will want to cry. In fact, I'll probably cry out of boredom. After that I will evaluate whether watching my ship crawl into a station is more fun than watching paint dry. Clearly watching paint dry is more fun, so I will quit Eve and take up paint watching in my recreational time.

Stuff that adds boredom 99% of the time is not worth it, even if that other 1% of the time it gives some lazy noob a chance to get a gank he otherwise might have used his brain to obtain.


What you are saying is that if travel was slow and boring you would be less likely to want to do it?

THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT.

Eve would be much better if people didn't travel so far - it has nothing to do with lulz for gankers.


Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2011.08.16 00:53:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Desert Ice78
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: Desert Ice78
I tried to ignore this thread, but i'm going to have to weigh in here:

I think there should be a golden rule when looking at making tweaks and changes to Eve in one direction or another; the reason for making such changes should never be because you fail at PvP.

If Eve is too hard for you OP, go play something else, maybe something with ponies...

I guess this is going to be the new generic fail-wanabe-hisec-carebear-pvper whine thread, now that they got their way with unscanable ships.

You fail, so whine to CCP because its too hard. It'll be enough to make my freakin' eyes bleed from the sheer boredom of it all.


I'm not sure anywhere in your rantings I could find anything that relates to a rational opinion on warp to 15.

Can you clarify? How are ppl associating this to people that suck at pvp? Is it gate camps? I mean, unless you live your life in hisec with the scary popular bottlenecks to .4 being the only pvp you've seen or heard of, that is ******ed.

It's not about making life easier for any given play style, it's about making the game, space, larger. Restoring what was to anyone that played then an obviously better environment. The fact everyone instantly lands on an object was not intended for this game and has had detrimental effects since it's implementation.

Travel was the only thing that was a problem.... Bookmarks are the only reason CCP did it. A revisiting of the issue could restore the larger space aspect without revisiting the downsides.

Also, nerf the crap out of jump bridges.

And Jump clones should face a range barrier (force multiple jumps to go extreme distances)


From the OP:

"At least for lowsec and nullsec, I know you alliance folk in 0.0 hate the idea but how else are pirates meant to disrupt your operations when you can just fly all over with very little risk.

1. prevent bookmarks within 50km of star gates.
2. reinstate 15km warp in
3. laugh like **** at all the nubs that leave the game..."


Could you even read and understand that before you bothered to fail reply...


not sure if you noticed but there are 7 pages of discussion here.

the crux of 'warp to 15' is not and should not be rooted in the idea that it's for gatecamp kills. the fact the op joins many others in being mistaken makes little difference.


Rhaegor Stormborn
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.08.16 02:09:00 - [188]
 

I am for this. It was one of the worst changes besides aoe titans and jump bridges.

Krakaan Byzantia
Gallente
Bolt Action Drive by
The Imperial Senate
Posted - 2011.08.16 02:26:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
Hey guys, thought I'd step in here with some info on the subject.

As has been mentioned, the reason for WTZ being introduced was the epic proliferation of WTZ bookmarks copied all over the database causing lockups on both clients and servers alike. Feel free to blame me for that as I was involved in some areas of that project and am quite used to being scolded by people I don't know. But as it stands the bookmark system is still in dire need of "refactoring" before anything like this could be reintroduced.

But the bookmark system in its current design will most likely never see any refactoring. It's not very usable nor efficient and really just breaks immersion when you think about it. We're flying FTL spaceships but said spaceships cannot communicate coordinates between themselves unless the pilots themselves exchange a 0.1m^3 physical item (that's 1m x 1m x 10cm.. I've seen less cumbersome stone tablets). Corporations cannot share BMs betweem their members which in itself causes excessive data repetition and the bookmark management itself could do with a non-business-logic programmer UI.

So after reading this yesterday I poked a bit around. I haven't completed said poking but so far I'm gathering that there is no new game design for any new bookmark system and before we have a new one the old code will not be touched as it needs to be deprecated, not refactor, as I touched on above. I'd love to make up for my part in this by solving the initial problem with a technical overhaul but for that we need a new game design. To get a new design we need resources and they are not available in the short term. I wouldn't want to rush anything so the short term was always out of the picture anyways.

Now, it's imperative that you understand that I'm a programmer and not in any position to decide on our roadmap or resource allocation. I'm just looking for a fun project I could get into at some point in the future if there's any excitement about it in the first place. And of course I cannot even promise that it would reintroduce 15Km warps. But I've been here for almost five years now and a whole lot of people owe me beers for favours that they've never ponied up.. so who knows?

At any rate, I'm using this topic to gauge if there's any support for a new BM system and looking for ideas on how that could be used to improve your EVE experience (and getting into the rhythm of posting again on these forums). Well, I also wanted to write a wall of text. Wink



Link to the CSM Forums for this idea
CLICK HERE FOR CSM TOPIC

Maxpie
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
Posted - 2011.08.16 15:59:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Oglyn
Originally by: Maxpie

You miss the point. If I have to sit there and watch my ship crawl to every gate/station, etc., I will want to cry. In fact, I'll probably cry out of boredom. After that I will evaluate whether watching my ship crawl into a station is more fun than watching paint dry. Clearly watching paint dry is more fun, so I will quit Eve and take up paint watching in my recreational time.

Stuff that adds boredom 99% of the time is not worth it, even if that other 1% of the time it gives some lazy noob a chance to get a gank he otherwise might have used his brain to obtain.


What you are saying is that if travel was slow and boring you would be less likely to want to do it?

THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT.

Eve would be much better if people didn't travel so far - it has nothing to do with lulz for gankers.




So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that Eve will be more fun if travel is so tedious that people will tend not to go anywhere and just spend the bulk of their time in one system, or maybe even docked? If that's what you mean to say, I must disagree. Travel was soul crushingly boring prior to wtz. Frankly, it's pretty boring as it is now.

Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Navigators of the Abyss
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:24:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
I'm not promising anything on behalf of Team BFF or anybody for that matter. Just fishing for ideas.


The root cause of your issue is that the warp system is broken, not the bookmarks.

In order for me to warp somewhere I have to have been there. Why? I'm an immortal space being that has billions/millions/thousands of isk.

It would go a long way to fixing the bookmark issue if ANY coordinates can be used (centered radially around the sun) to warp to any coordinate in the system.

Instead of warping to planet X, I'd warp to planet X at (X, Theta, Phi), the game would autopopulate those coordinates as "warp to" points in the GUI, but the GUI would allow for manual entry or system map mouse entry.

Bookmarks would then be nothing but text based inputs. (Similar to real aircraft lat long) On an airplane modern GUI's have copy paste functions that allow you to enter/tag a lat/long associated with that point. (Rather than store an object that has to be place in some ******ed cargo hold to be transferred)

Works in real life VERY well (It's my job to do stuff like this), why the hell not in eve?

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.16 19:13:00 - [192]
 

WTZ is killing this game.

Orian Okha
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:11:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Lykouleon
WTZ is killing this game.

And i thought that blobs and bots are killing this game. Hmm my mistake then ugh

baltec1
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:25:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Orian Okha
Originally by: Lykouleon
WTZ is killing this game.

And i thought that blobs and bots are killing this game. Hmm my mistake then ugh


No No its the vanity MT items that are killing the game.

Spaceman Jack
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:17:00 - [195]
 

Edited by: Spaceman Jack on 17/08/2011 15:19:11

Interesting how you know people will potentially un-sub because of a WTZ removal - but you think you will have more targets. IMHO, fewer sub = fewer targets.

WTZ was introduced so that people who have responsibilities in real life can play the game without wasting 30% of their time maneuvering through gates. You will understand when you no longer have the luxury of spending 18 hours inside playing EVE and when you have even FEWER targets because people un-subbed.

Besides, the intro of WTZ never reduced my PVP fun.. so you are probably doing something wrong.


LittleTerror
Day Unhappy Security Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.18 16:59:00 - [196]
 

Edited by: LittleTerror on 18/08/2011 17:01:18
I don't think that there should be WTZ in lowsec or null for all ships types, if people want to move 200 battleships from A to B they should either 1. build them on site 2. bridge them 3. move them in inside of cap ships.

Also people should not be able to just insta dock when being pursued in lawless space, it does not make sense that a large mass suddenly comes crashing to a halt against a big metal structure and simply vanishes.

Just saying like...

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.18 17:44:00 - [197]
 

Removing WTZ unfairly punishes wormholers.

Yep, wormholers.

We never know where we'll have an exit system from day to day... I've had days where there's finally a low exit near high sec that's safe enough to take a hauler through and hey, LOOK! It's only 20 jumps from Jita!

Wormhole logistics are tough enough without adding ungodly amounts of travel time to the equation because a minority of people are butthurt that other ships can move faster around the game now.

Judge Ment
BOOM BOOM POW
Posted - 2011.08.18 18:59:00 - [198]
 

Bookmarks FTW or simple alt account with small fast ship to warp to. But this sounds more like whine thread from campers or Pirating!

Well done

Hicksimus
Gallente
Mom's Friendly Spaceship Company
Posted - 2011.08.18 19:19:00 - [199]
 

I think you've made the mistake of posting an excellent point on a forum populated by carebears. Why do I say that, well if the people in here where in lowsec or nullsec they'd be busy doing something. Why am I here then, I live in a wormhole, I got bored went outside tried to kill a drake but they undocked a carrier and I'm bored again.

The old way was best it made it harder to simply infiltrate other people's space, it made movement of giant fleets harder especially fleets with giant ships, it was a tactic that was removed for general popularity amongst the morons(see most people in highsec). The least CCP could do is have lowsec and nullsec without wtz.

Martin Skorn
Posted - 2011.08.19 05:21:00 - [200]
 

Nein Danke

Kiran
Minmatar
Knights of Azrael
Anti-Social Outcast
Posted - 2011.08.19 07:37:00 - [201]
 

Oh god I remeber the days of warping to a gate 15km away. The mind numbing job of having to warp in from each and every gate or station and then travel 15km beyond the target object to get a bookmark where you could just warp to 0.

Just no, not again. I still have some of those bookmarks as well.

If you want to catch people I suggest a faster lock time.

Gungnir Winder
Posted - 2011.08.19 09:11:00 - [202]
 

I'd love to see WTZ gone, sometimes is quite frustrating trying to get a fight, especially with the ****ing big ass gates we got nowdays. You also have to consider the fact that when we had warp to 15, the gameplay was completely different : the speed, the webs etc etc.

To be honest I don't know how well this change could fit into the current version of the game, one thing is certain, avoiding a fight has become WAY too easy.


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