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Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.10 19:07:00 - [121]
 

Also - Back to the OP:

After having thought about this further, it's *impossible* to ask someone to know *all* about Eve... So to ding mittens for his lack of experience in WH's is just a tiny bit self-serving... Although I admit, it was/is fun... Embarassed

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.10 19:11:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Also - Back to the OP:

After having thought about this further, it's *impossible* to ask someone to know *all* about Eve... So to ding mittens for his lack of experience in WH's is just a tiny bit self-serving... Although I admit, it was/is fun... Embarassed


It's how quickly he went from not knowing that wormholes having ABC ores to suddenly being an expert on the hazards of these mythological "day-trippers" supressing the mineral market that truly displayed his incompetance to argue anything at all relative to wormhole life.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.10 19:20:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Also - Back to the OP:

After having thought about this further, it's *impossible* to ask someone to know *all* about Eve... So to ding mittens for his lack of experience in WH's is just a tiny bit self-serving... Although I admit, it was/is fun... Embarassed


It's how quickly he went from not knowing that wormholes having ABC ores to suddenly being an expert on the hazards of these mythological "day-trippers" supressing the mineral market that truly displayed his incompetance to argue anything at all relative to wormhole life.


Three things:

#1 - yeah, 0 to expert (or that's how it sounded) in five minutes or less...

#2 - Again, from what I remember reading (fhc?, Dev Blog?, Trebor's write up?) CCP reported "some numbers" - so...

vOv

#3 - from getting elected because the previous CSM lacked specific experience in 0.0 to making statements about things he lacked specific experience with... Very Happy

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.10 19:21:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes

Because as Meissa said, apparently the whole ABC's in WH's conversation came about because of some (supposed) data that CCP have about ABC's coming out of WH's and the CSM can't comment on.

It just bugs the **** out of me that we don't get a new QEN, and apparently can't be trusted with the data. Evil or Very Mad



If that were the case, then why is CCP Zulu quoted as saying he’s going to “look into it”? Like it’s something that’s just come to his attention and he needs more data on. Why are the people on the CSM who have knowledge of WH space disagreeing with the notion of removing ABC ores from WH space until such a time as data is gathered on the situation? Whatever data there was, if there was, was sketchy at best and this whole “we can’t talk about it, but we know better than you do” is a load.

People who know WH’s are convinced removing ABC ores from lower class WH’s is a silly idea. People who don’t know WH’s are supporting removal because they don’t know any better and worry that it might be affecting their own corner of the game.

The only data we “can’t be trusted with” is the data showing subscription numbers. Class? Can anyone tell me why CCP might not be eager to share that information?
-Windjammer

#1 - (just fyi) - I've lived in a WH since they came out (off and on) and my current corp has lived there since they came out - we have a clue about WH's. (because you made it sound as if *I* didn't have a clue - if that wasn't your intent, apologies...)

#2 - Either Meissa or Trebor (maybe even mittens - I don't recall) said that (i guess during the whole 0.0 industry discussion) - they were presented with some data on ABC's coming out of WH's... Which is back where this all started.

If Meissa or Trebor could corroborate for me?



It wasn’t my intent to suggest you didn’t have a clue, so I accept your apology. Since you live in WH’s and have a clue, I assume you find little to support the reasons being given to advocate for the removal of ABC ores from WH’s.

As far as I can tell the whole controversy originates with the CCP/CSM summit meeting. The notes from that meeting indicate surprise on the part of those members of the CSM not familiar with WH’s that ABC’s could be found there. This surprise indicates a lack of knowledge regarding the amounts of ore and the conditions under which the ore is extracted as well as the impact to the EVE ore economy. Those notes also indicate a leap to conclusions which are contested by those members of the CSM who are familiar with WH’s.

All the above indicates that whatever data was given was not very much and was certainly not anything from which an accurate judgment could be made. i.e. something along the lines of data = “WH’s have ABC ores” and reaction = “WTH?! That’s our stuff!”

-Windjammer

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.10 19:25:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Also - Back to the OP:

After having thought about this further, it's *impossible* to ask someone to know *all* about Eve... So to ding mittens for his lack of experience in WH's is just a tiny bit self-serving... Although I admit, it was/is fun... Embarassed
Naw. What Mitts is being dinged for is offering an opinion on something he doesn’t know very much about. He could keep his yap shut and he’d be fine.

Nobody expects anyone to be expert on all aspects of EVE. We just expect them to know what they’re talking about when they give an opinion.

Bane Necran
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.10 19:29:00 - [126]
 

I'm genuinely curious what 'mitts' is an expert in.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.08.10 19:36:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 10/08/2011 20:00:39

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

I'll play...

stuff that is too long for my post...


Ok, I'll bite because because at least you can put together a paragraph unlike mittens response of "uh" every two lines.

I've lived in WH but no I didn't mine or do much care bearing. I've lived in a class two that had a low sec/c2 static & a class 1 that had a high sec static, that I used to PVP from & run invention labs for a bit of ISK.

I can tell you for 100% that the one with the high sec static was far more traveled & dangerous. I ran very few sites, because I used them for PVP, but I can say that once the high sec exit was opened I would easily get 10-15 visitors inside the life span of that static.

Now you might think that is not "dangerous" or "risky" for say a care bear whom wants to mine, but in WH's we all know they have no local. This means you can never be 100% certain that one of your visitors didn't happen to stick around to gank you.

I'd say that anyone whom actually does much care bearing with a high sec static WH is gonna get ganked pretty damn often unless they have a large corp to stand guard. If they do have lot of members taking part then that ISK reward is cut into nothing.

Again I'm not a care bear, but a PVPer but even I know it's risky as hell for those that live in WH's. Not to mention in null sec care bear land, even with the jump bridge nerf, if a alliance has set up properly they can be off to the next happy care bear system if you camp their first. Meanwhile if you camp out a WH the guys living there aren't gonna do **** if they can't fight your numbers. Not to mention if it's a small corp, they don't have the luxury to go else where as they would risk losing their WH if they do.

It's 100 times easier to continue to go about your business in null sec compared to a WH. Not to mention any one that has a WH with a high sec static that opens next to Jita will certainly have a WH that has it's static camped.

Last but not least lets not forget the mining site spawn and are gone til you happen to get a new one. Every site I ever looked in only had 1 roid of each of the ABC's meaning there wasn't a ton of the good stuff to be mined.

WH's didn't do **** to the value of ABC's it was the drone lands & lvl 4's that killed miners profits. Oh and lets not forget WHer's have to refine in a POS.. Umm yea sounds profitable. Rolling Eyes

I no longer live in WH's nor do I really have an interest in them, but you CSM do not appear to have the slightest clue. That or it's like every one says you are just trying to have no competition on the market or for your bots.

My interest in this is because I do not like seeing ****ty RMT alliances hoarding & creating bottle necks on the market. At the very least WH's allow small groups to be some what self sufficient away from the null sec powers that force them to be either renters or pets. (that's likely the real reason the Null sec CSM doesn't like WH's)

tl'dr the CSM doesn't have a clue or is just in it to protect their own interests

(uh yea, I think we know which one mittens fits in)

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.10 19:36:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Bane Necran
I'm genuinely curious what 'mitts' is an expert in.

SHUSH YOU!

Mittens is an attorney! Everyone knows a degree in a specific area confers "expertise" in all other areas!

ESPECIALLY INTERNET SPACESHIPS!Laughing

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.10 20:35:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Bane Necran
I'm genuinely curious what 'mitts' is an expert in.
Espionage. The accumulation of information and generation of disinformation in such a way as to benefit a particular party. In this case, the goonies of EVE.

The above tends to make anything he says regarding anything he’s truly familiar with suspect. Trust him as far as you can toss him……….if his mouth is moving, he must be?.......and all the other usual cliché’s.

tika te
Posted - 2011.08.10 20:49:00 - [130]
 

there is SO MUCH broken in this game and you ppl are mad about abc ore???
this explains a lot...

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.08.10 21:01:00 - [131]
 

The Mittani having no idea what the **** he's talking about is neither a revelation nor is it news.

He's a ****ing Goon. What the **** did you expect?

Bustin Jieber
Posted - 2011.08.10 21:03:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Hi matini. You are a ****tard of the nth degree. you fail at game mechanics hard. You cannot take a hulk into a class 1 wormhole and then bring it back out.

You are a CSM. You should know about the 'not being able to repackage in a WH bug' and bringing that to CCP, instead of not knowing of its existence and saying stupid **** like you can mine arkonor 2 jumps from jita.

Do your ****ing job or quit asshat.


This beautiful post is why The Mittani will forever have my vote for CSM.

Zirse
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.10 21:36:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
The Mittani having no idea what the **** he's talking about is neither a revelation nor is it news.

He's a ****ing Goon. What the **** did you expect?


Have you ever used EVEMon?

As far as the ABCs, the jury is still out until the data comes in. Can't really blame the CSM if CCP gave them some hard data; you'd almost have to take it at face value.

VaL Iscariot
Caldari
The Concilium Enterprises
Spectrum Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.10 21:39:00 - [134]
 

lol at the future indy version of the nano nerf.

I ninja mine wh's. I know, I'm out of my mind. I've heard: "The logistics are to hard" and "No one is crazy/stupid/dumb to do that" and "*random crap about high sec.*" If you can't pull this stuff off with one hand tied behind your back, blindfolded, a lit cigar in your mouth, texting your mother, fighting off a lion with a chair and a bull whip then you don't know crap about EVE and need to go.

This nerf bat is coming folks. There is no stopping it. No amount of tears, threadnaughts, threadtitans, unsubs, trolls, cearbears, and market manipulation will change this.

Enjoy the tears everyone.

(will link this in a future dev blog about the nerf. Mark my words.)

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.08.10 21:46:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 10/08/2011 21:48:36
Originally by: VaL Iscariot

This nerf bat is coming folks. There is no stopping it. No amount of tears, threadnaughts, threadtitans, unsubs, trolls, cearbears, and market manipulation will change this.



Personally, I couldnt care less about ores, wormholes and pretty much anything that doesnt produce carebear wrecks.

The tears and gnarling of teeth are gonna be delicious though when people start to realize that the DRF are the only ones that will rake in massive profits.

Watching the cunning plans of delusional people backfire violently is pretty much the most fun you can have on this earth apart from simply watching fat kids faceplant on youtube Laughing

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.10 23:39:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: VaL Iscariot
lol at the future indy version of the nano nerf.

I ninja mine wh's. I know, I'm out of my mind. I've heard: "The logistics are to hard" and "No one is crazy/stupid/dumb to do that" and "*random crap about high sec.*" If you can't pull this stuff off with one hand tied behind your back, blindfolded, a lit cigar in your mouth, texting your mother, fighting off a lion with a chair and a bull whip then you don't know crap about EVE and need to go.

This nerf bat is coming folks. There is no stopping it. No amount of tears, threadnaughts, threadtitans, unsubs, trolls, cearbears, and market manipulation will change this.

Enjoy the tears everyone.

(will link this in a future dev blog about the nerf. Mark my words.)
I’m having a difficult time believing you ninja mine ABC in WH’s. I’m having an even more difficult time believing you have a source of information which supports your allegation regarding the “nerf bat” and it is impossible to believe that you know what you’re talking about.

I mean, you might be right, but it’s only because you have two options to choose from, nerf or no nerf. Choose one and you stand a good chance of being right.

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.11 00:20:00 - [137]
 

First off, you don't get into such a lofty position in an alliance and be as dumb as a box of frogs.

Don't need to spell perfectly either ;)

So, people in WHs scan your roids and post the quantity you can mine.
People in 0.0, scan your roids, post the quantity you can mine

Add to the mix the respawn rates (fix, random)

Now the CSM has some intel to work with.

my experiences are that yields are not equivalent

(0.0 has almost zero cons, WH many)

Goobai Vapor
Posted - 2011.08.11 00:20:00 - [138]
 

ITT - 0.0 pilots hurf blurf about WH Mining, but continue to condone macro miners/ratters in their own Alliances.

Welcome to EVE 2.0.

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.11 00:34:00 - [139]
 

If 0.0 mining is so much more prevalent than WH mining, why do people who want to buy supercaps get their minerals from Jita 4-4? (Drone regions excluded of course).

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.08.11 00:40:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
If 0.0 mining is so much more prevalent than WH mining, why do people who want to buy supercaps get their minerals from Jita 4-4? (Drone regions excluded of course).


Maybe you should talk to the miners and logistics specialists in your alliance and find out.

Hicksimus
Gallente
Mom's Friendly Spaceship Company
Posted - 2011.08.11 00:44:00 - [141]
 

It aint broken don't ****ing touch it jesus christ the server can't even stay up and we're talking about changing things that are not broken. In the C3 I just entered the locals say there hasn't been a grav site in a week, I fail to see what the big deal is and how somebody who isn't from a wormhole can ***** about them. Not that the CSM has really ever had a clue and the people at CCP aren't smart enough to recognize that ****.

Ra'kael
Posted - 2011.08.11 01:00:00 - [142]
 

I am not going to pretend i know anything about Null Sec... I dont... What I do know is:

*Fairly easy to access
*Has pre-marked Belts
*Outstanding planets
*And manuverability similar to highsec

So How dangerous or safe is it? It only takes a group of 6 Tech 2 well orginized frigits to ruin a Tech 2 battleship's entire weekend. Roll in, mop up, warp out. Easy enough to avoid with align and warp for miners all asumeing your not mining ontop of the warp to point or anywhere within 20km of it. Again someone said earlier a bot could easily be geared and programed to respond to such threats. Maybe not smart enough to evade Interdictors but that is still an issue.

Now moving on to wormholes. C1-C2 Most people don't think much of or is easy mode. Wrong... Why? I live in a C2. When we dont have two exits, one into highsec, one into a C1, we have another two either to null or anywhere from a pocket of highsec in the middle of low... So we have multipul entry points from either nabor wormholes which have every intention of sucking our wormhole dry aswell or wormhole raiders. Get the Highsec exit close enough to a trade hub and we need to worry about mobs of T3 ships jumping in.... 20 T3 ships jumping an orca? Yeah lots of profit and Easy mode there. Our only weapon in a wormhole is the fact that they dont know how many we are strong and the general superstition that jumping threw a wormhole will get you killed.

And this is only the player side of the equasion... now lets move on to the Automated portion:

*Sleepers don't mess around and are unkillable with Hulk/Retriver drones
*EVERYTHING in a wormhole must be scanned down, bookmarked, and treasured, we are given nothing.
*Mining spots are NOT a garentee or a Right... they are a rare privlage. If you miss it you miss it, if it dissapears before you finish mining it too bad
*ABC ore is REALY bloody heavy... max of what 200-800 Peices each trip? On your own without an orca... Your likely to collapse the wormhole before you make any profit.
*Many wormhole owners are exceptionaly possessive and trigger happy about their small slices of space and will chase you around till your blowed up or vanish
*And the final point... You cant get a bot to reliably make use of the scanning skills required to find both its way in, out, and about a wormhole and having a human to push the bot into the hole puts the human at risk and thus less than worth it.

What needs to change? Honestly I would say it all seams to work just fine how it is. If anything needs fixing its Either the Bot problem or the accessability of the BOTTed ores in Null. I mean hell its not that complcated for them to lock accelleration gates... just set one of those up at the belts and have a password. Null sec is player owned anyway so wouldnt change much anyway

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.11 01:07:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas on 11/08/2011 01:09:40
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
If 0.0 mining is so much more prevalent than WH mining, why do people who want to buy supercaps get their minerals from Jita 4-4? (Drone regions excluded of course).


Maybe you should talk to the miners and logistics specialists in your alliance and find out.


I don't need to because I already know the answer: With the influx of cheap ABC from wormholes, it's more efficient to run plexes or anomalies and then use that isk to buy compressed minerals from empire than it is to mine it locally. We don't have, need or want mining ops because the cheap minerals are being mined by people who enjoy that particular brand of masochism.

Addendum: If you're looking for evidence that ****loads of people mine ABC in the lower class wormholes than you need go no further than this thread. The people shouting the loudest about 0.0 mining bots are the ones who are mining the ABC in C1 to C3's.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.11 01:19:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
I don't need to because I already know the answer: With the influx of cheap ABC from wormholes, it's more efficient to run plexes or anomalies and then use that isk to buy compressed minerals from empire than it is to mine it locally. We don't have, need or want mining ops because the cheap minerals are being mined by people who enjoy that particular brand of masochism.

Addendum: If you're looking for evidence that ****loads of people mine ABC in the lower class wormholes than you need go no further than this thread. The people shouting the loudest about 0.0 mining bots are the ones who are mining the ABC in C1 to C3's.

I would like to see your "cheap" abc's from wormholes data please. Until we see wtf CCP was talking about, we don't know. Again, from my experience, Sleeper loot is worth more m/3 than abc's... Traffic is high in c1/c2 space and there is no local. To my mind, with no local means no bots (at least we haven't found any that we know of).

Bots work 23.5/7, belts can be upgraded in Sov space (not in wh's), so I would think more is made from 0.0.

Of course, I could be wrong - your own post implies that 0.0 Sov dwellers mine less . . . vOv We will have to see what comes up with the data.


Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.08.11 01:22:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
If 0.0 mining is so much more prevalent than WH mining, why do people who want to buy supercaps get their minerals from Jita 4-4? (Drone regions excluded of course).


There is literally no way you can be this stupid. You would never have survived puberty.

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.11 01:22:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes

Bots work 23.5/7, belts can be upgraded in Sov space (not in wh's), so I would think more is made from 0.0.



The industrial upgrades don't upgrade belts, they provide mining sites which have to be probed down.

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.11 01:24:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
If 0.0 mining is so much more prevalent than WH mining, why do people who want to buy supercaps get their minerals from Jita 4-4? (Drone regions excluded of course).


There is literally no way you can be this stupid. You would never have survived puberty.


Here is an example of someone who would be upset by the lack of ABC in C1's to C3's.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.08.11 01:29:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Here is an example of someone who would be upset by the lack of ABC in C1's to C3's.


I am absolutely certain you have absolutely no experience with or knowledge of the logistics of mining in C1-3s. I would wager the considerable fortune I have amassed by doing things more profitable and productive than the time I spent mining ABC in C1-3s on it.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.11 01:30:00 - [149]
 

Just caught this...

Originally by: Jita mcheck
I agree with mittens.

But it is a minior issue.

From personal experiance I was based out of a class 2 worm hole with a static level 5 entrance. Had a Pos all set up(brought in through the class 5) so was safe(very few dreads or bs fleets roam level 2's.) Could mine all day and move stuff in and out. big stuff out through the c5, small daily stuff directly to empire. every day i could move ore in and out. some times right into trade hubs(got amar a bunch of times).


No matter the destination any hole originating in C2 is going to have C2 restrictions. He might as well just take the "big stuff" out through his K link - So "I'm calling shenanigans..." And if the hole originated in a C5, it's still random, still have to scan down the route out...Rolling Eyes

Jita mcheck
Posted - 2011.08.11 01:30:00 - [150]
 

so?
Don't like it vote for the wormhole CSM....

Personally I like what he is aiming for...


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