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Aedeal
Posted - 2011.08.11 15:31:00 - [301]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

And I'm definitely not talking about HS->WH ninja mining, I'm talking about people who live in WHs.

Real reason? How about "it's too easy to get", particularly compared to 0.0? Or "adventurous miners who want to mine ABC would eye WHs rather than 0.0 and contribute to not having industrialists there?"



'It's too easy to get...' ok, I'll let that one go, it's not like we have to go through all that fuss of jump bridges and cynos is it... No sir.

'Adventurous miners would rather go to WHs' - sounds to me like that's a problem with the way nullsec is managed. It's soo much easier to find ABCs in Nullsec, and much safer in the end. And yet they still 'prefer to go to WHs'? Possibly cos they don't have the utter BS of living in nullsec to cope with? Don't have to worry about frigates dropping capships on them.

Don't forget that there is no guarantee that the system you live in will have grav belts. You'll have to roll WHs and hope for something good. Sure it's possible, but why the heck shouldn't we in WHs have as high a tier 'base' material as nullsec? We have arguably more lethal conditions to live in (no local... do you nullsec guys really realise how easy local makes things?) We can be bombed, we can be bubbled. Why do we suddenly not deserve ore? Cos it's 'too easy' to get access too? Well sure I can sit in a cloaky watching a roid belt I found with ease. Getting out into a hulk and mining it though is a totally different matter. Don't mix 'ease of getting between HS and here' with 'ease of getting AT the stuff'.

IMO what's broken is the nullsec part of things. Lots of people here saying they love wormholes *because* of how they are. CCP wants to make certain nullsecs more desirable? Remove local! Deadend systems triple in price! You then have a system that's almost as deadly as a WH system, but with pansy rats.

The other thing is, miners are mainly carebears or botters. Remove local and 'auto-dock' bots break. Biggest problem solved (They'll find a way round, usually do). Carebears wont like it, but all you need is a scout on the gate, along with a ****-ton (metric) of bubbles, and nothing will jump you via that gate. Sure, you might not know who's already in system when you get there, but get used to that. We live with it in WHs every time we log in. And you said WHs aren't as dangerous as null?

Hroya
Posted - 2011.08.11 15:31:00 - [302]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Originally by: Aedeal
Like I said, you wanna move a bunch of indie guys out to nullsec, target the HS people. Severely nerf HS station production/research capacity and buff outpost capacity. I'm talking 2x job timers, 1.5x material costs, 1/3-1/4 the slots, no copying/invention. If ANYONE has it too easy, it's the people 4 off Jita manufacturing everything.


Obviously, yes. But the moment WHs sound more profitable/safer/easier than 0.0 it's hard to tell them "go to 0.0", they'll reply "well, if I want to move out of HS I'll head to WHs instead".

I'm really curious what people would think of such an idea as you suggest however.


The reason people went to wormhole space is not because of the profit from mining, nor is it the "convinience" in obtaining the minerals. It's because people arent interrested in your average null sec political schemes.
The mining only provides a limited sustainabillity to any needed production you have to do in there to keep it all running.


Really, you persist on argueing a moot point trying to evade the actuall issue.
You want industry in your empires out there ? Then set forth and fix it, it's not THAT hard.

It doesnt requere a change of wormholes, that's just a convinient decoy.
What of the earlier asked reasons is it ?

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.11 15:36:00 - [303]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Question about safety...
How many ships do you wormhole miners lose on a weekly basis. How much mining income-equivalent do you get (raw materials, minus the refinery tax if you refine locally).
Question about rorqs...
For those who use one, in which WH class do you use one?
Question about use...
Your high-ends, do you use them for T3 manufacture or do you ship them out, or for other local production?


Questions are good.

1. On a weekly basis is invalid... we don't get to mine on a weekly basis. Grav sites are not always available... you really need to keep this important fact in mind. We haven't has one for over two weeks now. However, I've lost four or five retties over the course of time, haven't lost a covetor lately now that on those rare occassions we do get to mine we're a lot more concious and keep combats on guard as well. It's a lot more work than flying out to an asteroid belt and tanking rats, but we do our best for our niblets of ore. We refine in the hole at a 25% penalty, then all minerals go into either T3 production or missile production for the hole and alliance. Minerals do not go to market as a rule.

We haven't bothered to waste resources on a rorqual. We also don't mine in hulks... the risk/reward isn't worth it. Covies are a tenth the cost or so, and you will lose them in time. It's inevitable.

the plague
Anthraxus Defense Laboratories
Posted - 2011.08.11 15:46:00 - [304]
 

Edited by: the plague on 11/08/2011 15:47:55
@Meissa

Your vision of improving 0.0 and making it a viable home for industrialists is a worthy goal and a goal I think many of us share. However, I honestly believe you're choosing to overlook the nature of the entities that currently occupy and rule null-sec. The prevailing culture there has never been one that is open to new ideas or accommodating to the needs of different types of players. In fact, it's quite fair to say the thinking there is entirely one-dimensional, and there is very little reason to believe this will change as a result of a few resource tweaks.

You're treating this problem as if it is simply an issue of competitive resource availability in null-sec vs. wormhole space. It isn't. The general lack of viable industrial opportunity in null-sec goes to the very heart of much deeper problems with the entire sovereignty and 0.0 end game in EVE Online. You also seem to be ignoring the base motivations of a lot of the people who choose to live in wormholes. In short, this isn't some issue that can be easily solved with simple resources tweaks as you seem to be suggesting. As I see it the problem is that CCP has manifestly failed to make 0.0 a place where players can build empires. Empires have politics, wars, economic and military rivals, industrial and infrastructure needs, comprehensive tax plans, etc, etc. The so-called "empires" that thrive in null-sec are really nothing more than blobs of players ganking each other in a convoluted game of capture the flag, and I say that as someone who has lived in every type of EVE space over the years. What you're really talking about is transforming null-sec into a place with true empires run by players.

But while I support this goal and I believe this ought to be very high on CCP's master priority list, I see absolutely no evidence that the changes you are talking about will cause the powers that be in 0.0 to do an about-face and suddenly become openly welcoming to industrialists. On the contrary, very big and bold changes to the whole 0.0 setup will be necessary in order to bring about that type of paradigm shift in player thinking. I predict the isolated changes you are advocating will do nothing more than nerf industrial activity in wormholes without any appreciable affect in null-sec. In order to make what you're talking about a reality, you're talking about changing the way people think and the way null-sec entities are organized and run, and I just don't see that happening without a comprehensive re-design of null-sec.

On a final note, I appreciate your candor and the way you've kept your comments toward both the community and your fellow CSMs reasonable. But don't make the mistake of believing your fellow CSMs share your ethical standards. Many of them have proven themselves to be rather nasty, self-serving opportunists. Word to the wise.

Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2011.08.11 15:47:00 - [305]
 

Originally by: Garak Jakobs
CCP have got to start to consider that the majority of its player base is in empire therefore you make those guys happy and keep them happy.


Yeah? I wonder how many of that majority are L4/trade alt's for lowsec chars or supply chain for nullsec alliances or players who are thinking "a few more isk and I'm off to WH space". Perhaps some of them are mercenaries, disrupting the isk and supply chain of 0.0 alliances.

Thinking that Empire is the place to concentrate making people happy is just.... wrong.

Zenith Intaki
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2011.08.11 15:54:00 - [306]
 

Originally by: Prince Kobol
Here is a quote from our beloved CSM Leader regarding the removal of ABC ores from WH

"I'll go ahead and like jump on this grenade cause theres a bunch of angry wormholers who are all ****ed off about it I don't give a ****. Basicly its stupid that you can mine Arkanor 2 jumps from Jita through a wormhole and low risk in my opinion. Uh, on the other hand, you should probably stop panicing because I think in the sucking chest wounds of EVE Online, uh, ABCs in wormholes are stupid for um class 1 through class 4. Class 5 and 6 is fine cause they're going to be more removed from empire. I think its dumb that you can have some guy in a hulk from Jita pop in with relatively low risk into a C1 whatever and get ABC, when ABC is typically something, uh, reserved for extremely dangerous space far from empire. Uh, and we think that its important to make mining a valuable uh profession again particularly with high end ores because their prices crash. I started out mining as a newbie in Syndicate uh getting Crokite and we would all have big mining ops together. Nobody bothers with it anymore except for bots because the prices crash so much. Um, but yeah, I think its dumb that theres ABCs in wormholes, but its not the first order of business on my political agenda. I'm a little bit more focused on things like supercap balance... So don't worry your pretty little heads."

This was taken from the Fire Side chat.

Isn't it great that the current CSM Chairman doesn't have a clue and that CCP are actually listening to this Personal attack removed - Fallout.

I'm not sure who is worse, the fool or the fool who follows him.
Actually.. ABC ores should be removed from normal 0.0 and reason is that normal 0.0 you can use bots, but only idiot would use bots in WH space....

Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2011.08.11 15:55:00 - [307]
 

Originally by: Prince Kobol
Here is a quote from our beloved CSM Leader regarding the removal of ABC ores from WH

"I'll go ahead and like jump on this grenade cause theres a bunch of angry wormholers who are all ****ed off about it I don't give a ****. Basicly its stupid that you can mine Arkanor 2 jumps from Jita through a wormhole and low risk in my opinion. Uh, on the other hand, you should probably stop panicing because I think in the sucking chest wounds of EVE Online, uh, ABCs in wormholes are stupid for um class 1 through class 4. Class 5 and 6 is fine cause they're going to be more removed from empire. I think its dumb that you can have some guy in a hulk from Jita pop in with relatively low risk into a C1 whatever and get ABC, when ABC is typically something, uh, reserved for extremely dangerous space far from empire. Uh, and we think that its important to make mining a valuable uh profession again particularly with high end ores because their prices crash. I started out mining as a newbie in Syndicate uh getting Crokite and we would all have big mining ops together. Nobody bothers with it anymore except for bots because the prices crash so much. Um, but yeah, I think its dumb that theres ABCs in wormholes, but its not the first order of business on my political agenda. I'm a little bit more focused on things like supercap balance... So don't worry your pretty little heads."

This was taken from the Fire Side chat.

Isn't it great that the current CSM Chairman doesn't have a clue and that CCP are actually listening to this Personal attack removed - Fallout.

I'm not sure who is worse, the fool or the fool who follows him.


all those dumb idiots who voted on him....

Aedeal
Posted - 2011.08.11 15:56:00 - [308]
 

Originally by: Wacktopia

Thinking that Empire is the place to concentrate making people happy is just.... wrong.



People *shouldn't* be happy in HS! They should always be hitting a problem like 'not enough manufacturing slots' or 'not enough ISK/hr', maybe even 'not enough LP to fund my POS'. Currently it feels like HS is the normal situation, where IMO nullsec should be the normal location. I'd be all for some event to shrink the HS systems. There's gotta be some HS, especially in a game as complex as this, but right now I just don't feel the balance is towards nullsec 'empires'. Nullsec without any industry at all is just a capture the flag game. Moons give it *some* credibility, but that's not *really* player-based industry. Make *real* empires that produce stuff and sell it, not CTF blobs.

Jon Taggart
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.08.11 16:04:00 - [309]
 

That's why Wormholes are so attractive. They offer players a taste of 0.0 without having to deal with alliance politics and all the jazz that comes with it. They get to defend their own turf, a mini-alliance of sorts, but without super-cap fleets and 100-man gangs.

If this is an effort to incentivize mining or industry in null sec, well, that's never going to happen. Nobody, specifically high sec dwellers, likes being the victim, a pet, a cog, or a third-rate citizen.

That's the crux of the issue here. Nullsec players see null as the "end game" of EVE that should offer the highest tier of rewards. Wormholes are threatening that notion with the availability of ABC ores.

It's all about preservation of power.

Starting at "We were surprised to learn Wormhole contain ABC ores" and shortly after to "They are bad and should be removed" is quite telling.

However, what would lay this discussion to rest would be the numbers CCP has that details how much ore on the market is actually generated from wormholes, or otherwise.


Takamori Maruyama
Amarr
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.08.11 16:11:00 - [310]
 

Why people don't accept the concept of multiple "end games" ?

You could expand both and try to make both competitive, instead of nerf nerf nert nert nert nert

Jekyl Eraser
Posted - 2011.08.11 16:24:00 - [311]
 

Is it really good idea to think 0.0 should have more of everything? It is the same fail logic that EVE seems to repeat at every thing. Meta lvl, Ship tiers...

Isn't it good hisec miners go WH? If you nerf it theres again one more reason not to leave hisec.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.11 16:45:00 - [312]
 

Originally by: Jekyl Eraser
Is it really good idea to think 0.0 should have more of everything? It is the same fail logic that EVE seems to repeat at every thing. Meta lvl, Ship tiers...

Isn't it good hisec miners go WH? If you nerf it theres again one more reason not to leave hisec.


The problem is that Group A are under the impression that can force Group B to play the game in a way contrary to the desires of Group B, if they just push hard enough. What they either forget or choose to ignore is that Group B always has another option.

They quit playing.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.11 16:55:00 - [313]
 

Originally by: Aedeal
Originally by: Wacktopia

Thinking that Empire is the place to concentrate making people happy is just.... wrong.



People *shouldn't* be happy in HS! They should always be hitting a problem like 'not enough manufacturing slots' or 'not enough ISK/hr', maybe even 'not enough LP to fund my POS'. Currently it feels like HS is the normal situation, where IMO nullsec should be the normal location. I'd be all for some event to shrink the HS systems. There's gotta be some HS, especially in a game as complex as this, but right now I just don't feel the balance is towards nullsec 'empires'. Nullsec without any industry at all is just a capture the flag game. Moons give it *some* credibility, but that's not *really* player-based industry. Make *real* empires that produce stuff and sell it, not CTF blobs.


People should be happy wherever their playstyle takes them. Anyone that thinks different should play a non open ended game.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:02:00 - [314]
 

Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel on 11/08/2011 17:04:11
Originally by: the plague
Edited by: the plague on 11/08/2011 15:47:55
@Meissa

Your vision of improving 0.0 and making it a viable home for industrialists is a worthy goal and a goal I think many of us share. However, I honestly believe you're choosing to overlook the nature of the entities that currently occupy and rule null-sec. The prevailing culture there has never been one that is open to new ideas or accommodating to the needs of different types of players. In fact, it's quite fair to say the thinking there is entirely one-dimensional, and there is very little reason to believe this will change as a result of a few resource tweaks.

<rest snipped because I need characters to answer :p>

In order to make what you're talking about a reality, you're talking about changing the way people think and the way null-sec entities are organized and run, and I just don't see that happening without a comprehensive re-design of null-sec.

On a final note, I appreciate your candor and the way you've kept your comments toward both the community and your fellow CSMs reasonable. But don't make the mistake of believing your fellow CSMs share your ethical standards. Many of them have proven themselves to be rather nasty, self-serving opportunists. Word to the wise.


Believe it or not, I actually entirely agree with your statements (except those that say I don't take things into account).

I don't ignore the fact that the "traditional" multi-activity wormhole dwellers are not necessarily the target for relocation to 0.0, and I would prefer to foster and better their existence (something I'm actually working on on another front, but that's another subject).

The comprehensive redesign of null-sec, at least on the industrial front and associated things (obtaining ships, doing stuff with proceeds from null, POSes, moving stuff about, etc.) is what I'm actually talking about with CCP at this very moment and also hence why my explanations about "other accompanying changes" is intentionally vague since I can't discuss the specifics of a plan under discussion. I realize I won't be able to convince people without a carefully laid-out plan that would be more agreeable so that's why I argue over the value/ease/etc. of a specific thing, however all the information exchange and debate feeds me with information I need to substantiate my other points (or counter some of them), and like all "bigger threads", they also get read by devs, even if they don't comment. So by communicating here, even if I vocally disagree with some of the assertions made here, I guarantee your words get read :p
And the "one-mind" stance of existing entities has been shown to change based on actual needs. Emergent behavior, as it were...

My "candor" is due to the fact I think my positions through before reacting. My current stance is based on reasoning that I believe is sound, I'll defend that position and reevaluate it in light of everything that is said, but I can't back down on the stance after someone says "you're wrong" without first having defended it. I need to debate the points until either position wins out. And then I'll reevaluate everything and have a more solid position. That's the way I work... I appeared to have been shown wrong about part of my reasoning about rorqs in C1/C2 (still checking) for starters.

I have no illusions about ethics in the CSM, it's my 5th term, but at the end of the day reason typically wins over politicking/manipulation during discussions with CCP (at least with the devs interested in actual debate and discussion, and so far that's the experience we've had with game design, particularly these past 2 years). So keep the comments coming.

And thanks for the post.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:03:00 - [315]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 11/08/2011 17:08:36
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
….

And that's the reason I ask people here what they'd like in 0.0, especially those who would like to go there but don't because of <X>.



I personally don't go to null sec because:

1) Time: I don't have time to commit to a computer game such that I can be sufficiently "active." I sign in whenever and do some pvp or grind isk and sign out. I don't have the time for any big ops or productions. Nor am I interested in finding new friends through the internet to socialize with. I have rl friends and family that I would rather spend time talking with.

2) Politics: I don't want to be beholden to a player with the emotional IQ of a 12 year old. You give up your independence when you join null sec alliances.

edit: And whats with the apparent concern to get people to null sec? Nerfing things people like to do in eve is not likely to get them to go to null sec. Its likely to get them to quit.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:04:00 - [316]
 

Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Toshimo Kamiya

Yes, clearly nerfing rat bounties so ratting is even more inferior to L4s in yet another way is the solution. Praise Jesus.


Well, npc bounties in general need to be looked at, not just ratting. There is simply too much ISK entering the game via bounties at this point.

Removing the bounties completely in favour of tags that have to be turned in at a considerable distance is what is needed, and there also needs to be a saturation effect for npc buy orders on them.

You wont like it, you'll most likely oppose it violently, but you'll adapt in the end and embrace the change.


Missions dump more free isk into the economy than rat bounties. Are you suggesting that all income be nerfed? Or just 0.0 income (which is already inferior to missions)?


As I said, rat bounties in general are the issue, that includes every single npc bounty. If the npc is in a mission, a belt or in an anomaly (these are the biggest culprit) does not make a difference. What needs to go is the instant ISK infusion into the wallet.

You'll still bring ISK into the economy via tags that the npc drop, but you have to turn these tags in quite a distance away from where they dropped, with the possibility of losing them altogether to other players destroying your ship.

You would not get a fixed reward either, but a variable one depending on how much of the particular tags are being turned in with a certain npc entity asking for them.

RAW23
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:53:00 - [317]
 

I haven't got all the way through the thread yet but I haven't seen this question asked.

Before the introduction of wormholes (in Apocrypha I think?) did high-end minerals still get shipped from Jita to nullsec?

Letrange
Minmatar
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:54:00 - [318]
 

Actually The Mittani has it wrong - ABC's should be removed from null sec since they have a local and as such are less risky than wormhole space for miners.

Manssell
Posted - 2011.08.11 18:05:00 - [319]
 



Now we're finally getting to the heart of the matter, the perception that the CSM want's to nerf someones game, to force them to play someone else's. Meissa the logistics, risk v reward arguments are all just window dressing to the main opposition to this, which you know is many, many WH guys (and gals) just do not want to live under 0.0 alliances. As many people have pointed out, WH life has a pioneering feel to it that attracts those types of players. And they see this as the CSM trying to poop in their side of the sandbox in an effort to force them from being kings of their small castles, into surf of the big alliances. I think everyone supports the idea of making 0.0 better, but if it's at the expense of those that have no desire to live there no matter what, it will look like the CSM does not consider a WH dweller as important as a 0.0 one, and it's going to be rabble, rabble, rabble.

"doing what's best for EVE", keeps popping up, well lets define "EVE". If "EVE" means the 0.0 alliances and that game only, then yes, this is good for "EVE". But if "EVE" means a sandbox game about blowing up internet spaceships, with all play-styes taken into account then I have a better idea. Think outside the visible map. CCP is always saying that inequalities are what drives conflict, well here you go lets drive conflict. If you are going to meddle, at least make the war. Remove ABC's from 0.0, and make logistics from jita harder. If they are the great resource 0.0 dwellers claim, they will go into the WH's and get them. It could be a classic guerilla war.You'd have the large powerful alliances fighting small groups with more knowledge of and experience with the local terrain. It could be epic! Large alliances taking huge losses, "elite" PVP'ers falling into unseen traps, whole WH systems and corps getting whipped out. Sure, it could also be a steam roller, or a bust of a war, but you gotta try. Come on…who doesn't want to see that fight?

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.08.11 18:16:00 - [320]
 

Originally by: Hroya

Really, you persist on argueing a moot point trying to evade the actuall issue.
You want industry in your empires out there ? Then set forth and fix it, it's not THAT hard.


To put it bluntly, convince the average alliance leadership to stop acting like 12 year old sociopathic pricks on a powertrip.

That is why no industrialist in their right mind wants to go to nullsec.

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.11 18:21:00 - [321]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Originally by: Windjammer
The notes from that meeting indicate surprise on the part of those members of the CSM not familiar with WH’s that ABC’s could be found there. This surprise indicates a lack of knowledge regarding the amounts of ore and the conditions under which the ore is extracted as well as the impact to the EVE ore economy. Those notes also indicate a leap to conclusions which are contested by those members of the CSM who are familiar with WH’s.


That is mostly accurate except for the last bit. The conclusion was that, if the proposed changes to industry in 0.0 make it through, keeping ABCs in WHs would be detrimental and unjustified. On its own removing ABC from C1->C4 would accomplish nothing except nerf non-powerbloc miners, since those would then have no access to ABC.
The CCP/CSM notes from the month of May made no mention of a conditional conclusion. The conclusion, made by members of the CSM, was presented based upon current conditions and not on the condition of possible future changes. Additionally, it had the strong flavor of a knee jerk, cavalier reaction.

What proposed changes are you referring to that you think will make ABC’s from WH’s detrimental?

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.11 18:54:00 - [322]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Your assumption is that, other than ABC distribution, all things would stay equal, that's a false assumption.
Until the assumption is proven false, it isn’t. CCP hasn’t said they’re going to change ABC in WH’s much less any of the other changes you’ve said you’d like to see. I’ve seen no package of changes suggested either by CCP or the CSM which justify removing ABC from WH’s.

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
And that's the reason I ask people here what they'd like in 0.0, especially those who would like to go there but don't because of <X>.
If the reason not to move is "because it's more profitable and safer and better in WHs", then that entirely makes my point.
The reason is relative independence, not that you see a large percentage of the EVE populace in WH’s. You don’t and that’s part of what makes it silly to pick on WH’s.

You don’t see people in WH’s because it’s safer, it isn’t, and you don’t see the majority of EVE’s populace in high sec just because it’s safer there. You see the bulk of these people where they are because they value their relative independence. They don’t care to become part of a huge alliance or corporation and get treated like sheep. They prefer independent thought to that of the hive mind.

-Windjammer

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:13:00 - [323]
 

Sons of Eve, I am a wormholer.

Wormholers are 7 feet tall.

Yes, I've heard. Kills ships by the hundreds, and if we were here we'd consume the null-bunnies with fireballs from our eyes and bolts of lightning from our arses. I AM a wormholer. And I see a whole army of my countrymen here in defiance of tyranny. You have come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What would you do without freedom? Will you fight?

Fight? Against Null? No, we will run; and we will live.

Aye, fight and you may die. Run and you'll live -- at least a while. And dying in your POS's many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our ore, but they'll never take our freedom!!!


Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:25:00 - [324]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 11/08/2011 19:27:13

When it does get nerfed, and there's roughly the same amount of minerals in Jita, selling for roughly the same prices, I wonder if our brave and well-informed CSM will notice, or care?

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:38:00 - [325]
 

Meissa - thanks for taking the time to look at this/respond here. Trolls aside, your time, it is appreciated!


Why am I not in 0.0, and instead in WH's? Lots of reasons. Mainly, I can't take Eve seriously enough to respond to CTA's (except with the group I'm with now... counter-intuitive as hell, I know), I can't really dedicate much time to the game sometimes, and, tbqh: The Attitude in 0.0. Sorry if that's not a popular "position/opinion" but it's the one I hold. (Colors on a map doen't mean anything to me.. vOv).


My corp is in WH's because we don't like being told what to do. When to do it or how to do it. We bring any goddam thing to a gang we can afford, feel like or want to. Anyone in one of our gangs who went "you brought what to the ****ing fleet!?!" would probably end up getting trolled back to hi-sec. Having said that, we do care enough to educate ourselves as to what works, what doesn't and to experiment. We have got some *scary* ****ing smart people in ADHC!


On to Farms and Fields:

Well, I'm not going to get into the whole "end game" argument, that's been beat to death. However, if you *really* want to buff 0.0, your going to have to nerf the **** out of hi-sec. I mean *REALLY* nerf the **** out of it.

I don't know if you or CCP would have the stones to do this but:

Hi-Sec: -85% invention/manufacturing/invention slots (phased in over a year I would guess, slowly limit the number of availiable slots by attrition per station over time as orders get filled).

0.0: - Stations only limited to the number of moons in a system. Stations get +10% build/invention/research slots for each sov level (Sov 1 = +10%, Sov 2 = +20%, Sov 3 = +30% and Sov 4 = 40% more slots across the board, etc.)
0.0: - Stations are destructable *AND* lootable. Easy mechanic, station incapped, all items in all hangars go to a folder (I'm assuming each station has a unique ID in the database). Station destroyed, database of items gets a roll/destruction/drop, anything that drops falls into a new database, and shows up in space in a "SUPERCOLLOSAL****INGHUGE" can. Only the proper logistics persons/star base whatever roll you want to shove it to can access the can. Accessing the can is only allowed when Sov resets, or sov is no longer contested in a system. it would have to be worked on to avoid hacks but that's my idea.

LOOTING STATIONS: Station incapped by not destroyed, "Loot" hangars can only be accessed when the Sov in a system ticks over to Sov 1 (either for whoever lost it, or whoever gained it) and station fully repped up.

Low-Sec: 10% more industry/invention/research than hi-sec.

Towers:
Hi-sec = small towers only...
Low-Sec = Small or Medium Towers...
0.0 - Any



To get people to leave hi-sec and *want* to play in 0.0, your going to have to make 0.0 much more attractive.

lvl 4's in hi-sec? Lvl 5's in low? Lvl 6,7,8,9 and 10 in 0.0. The mechanics already exist to do such with various exploration sites. Wanna make lvl 10 missions a *****, limit them to carriers/dreads only! Twisted EvilYARRRR!!Twisted Evil

Change rat bounties to tags/modules only, and make meta 2,3,4 items BPC's instead of modules. In low-sec give 50% bounties/bpc's and 0.0 get 90% bounties/10% bpc's. Hi-Sec get LP/BPC's and meta 4 bpc's(SUPER RARE PURPLES) only.


There has to be more things in zero zero, to make the zero zero denizens tolerable...

I have no problem advocating these changes, because I don't think CCP has the stones to do it...

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:40:00 - [326]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel


If what you say is true then surely it's no big deal if ABC gets removed. After all it's a side occupation that's not really important to you all.
And, in the advent that I am right, would geopardise making 0.0 better for those interested in it.



It wouldn't be a big deal, no. It does, however, show that you don't bother to understand a topic before lobbying CCP to change game mechanics, and are unwilling or incapable of changing your opinion in the face of argument or data.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:39GLW3msvUMJ:cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q3-2010.pdf

Quote:
Population Q3 2010 % of Total 2.42% (in wormholes)


That, in combination with what we know of the actual spawn rates, the logitical difficulty, and the fact that you as a part time wormholer should know that mining is the least appealing thing to do in a wormhole by isk, fun and risk calculations.

If you, and the trolls supporting you honestly believe that is a primary driver of mineral costs, I don't even know. I just have to hope there's some ulterior motive here, because it is depressing to think you are actually that dumb.

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:47:00 - [327]
 

Originally by: Kristina Vanszar
The reason why i am in W-Space rather then in 0.0
i don't like lagfests, and i don'ät like blobs, and i don't like politics.

I like the "we are, faster, smarter, and cloakier then you so we win" fact of W-Space. that's all.
And i hate the my feelt is X Times blobbier then yours so i win aspect of 0.0
This

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:52:00 - [328]
 

Hey………….wasn’t this a bash Mitts thread? Whatever happened to that? Relevance thy name is……………well it ain’t Mitts, that’s for sure.Very Happy

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.08.11 20:31:00 - [329]
 

Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas

You're not making your argument very convincing with fabricated information. What will these 4 faction deathstars be doing?




Depending how large a group is living in a WH, multiple POS's are needed to live out of. Of course he is being excessive with 5 faction death stars. Most likely if you had 5 towers in a WH, they would be split up between industry and defense.

Say maybe 3 towers that do various production needs and 2 for your defense. Any decent sized WH op is going to have several towers, if for nothing else to make it more of a pita for a hostile take over.

Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
Posted - 2011.08.11 20:34:00 - [330]
 

Edited by: Stella SGP on 11/08/2011 20:35:32
Originally by: Kristina Vanszar
So basically what you are saying, instead of fixing 0.0 for those who care you want to **** up a fully functional part of the game? have i got that right?


Why of course, null sec is probably starting to get stale. They need to come up with new things for them to maintain the illusion of having a big epeen and make themselves feel special again. They can then to start use their super carriers to mining ABC ores and brag about how much they make and how awesome it is, but currently, you WH dwellers have a shared resourced which is UNTHINKABLE!


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