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Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.08.11 15:24:00 - [91]
 

That's actually quite a nice definition, and I'll explore it in about 10 hours time when its no longer 1am.

But for the moment (and I will come back to the rest of it when I wake up) I'll lay this out:

I do not see eves ratio of CS to PS and CS to E as vastly different that found in competing MMO's.

CS->PS > CS->E in eve, its probably CS->PS < CS->E in world of warcraft (frigs are useful to eve vets, level one axes are useless to WoW vets). However, I would say

(PS + E) / 2 -> CS is about even. Anyway, tomorrow.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.11 15:42:00 - [92]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 11/08/2011 15:43:53
not entirely sure what the arrows meant in your post... (CS->PS > CS->E)?

However, I think I can follow along well enough to agree.

Newt, your explanation seems pretty good, and I can agree that setting a big goal (T1 everything across the board) can get tedious.

However, the ability to outright buy SP would be a bad thing(tm) for the rookie pilots. It would take out some of the "progression" from eve.

What I mean is, yeah... it takes a couple of days to train up for Med turret... but once you do that, you get them all (ships are slightly different, with their tiered approach). Being able to dump 5-10m SP into your character on day 15 would mean that the player won't necessarily learn to appreciate when (s)he can get a new shiny.

Take this for example:
I train with the rookies by giving them T1 (meta-0) fit everything. Yeah, the fittings are "hard" for them, and they don't do a whole hell of a lot of damage... but they get comfortable with the abilities of a T1 fit.

Now, as they skill up, we start replacing that T1 stuff with meta, and T2 as applicable ... and along the way, they learn to compare items, etc. in order to balance a fit to what they need.

Is it the best way? probably not, but it was how I was taught when I started, and it's what I know...

As for training time, it was roughly doubled a few months ago when CCP nuked the learning skills. This was a good thing(tm) because now players can get right into the game, and not be told "train learning skills" for their first week or two.

CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.11 15:43:00 - [93]
 

sandbox

Originally by: Velicitia
Funny, most people can get into a nullsec sov holding alliance in a year if they so wanted to. Probably faster if they worked hard at learning the game instead of complaining that they can't compete...


Yeah, you can probably get to anywhere in EVE in the first month or two. Good luck staying there and staying in one piece. Good luck getting back in one piece, for that matter. But, basically, you're talking about playing the game on other people's terms . . . maybe I just have pride. I just didn't like the idea of shooting people only because someone else that I was beholden to told me to do so.

I was out in null 2 months into the game. It wasn't fun, for a lot of reasons, mostly related to my lack of skillpoints, but not so much related to my inability to perform. Getting chastised in local for not being a good little suicide tackling noob, well, that's not my idea of "access".

Originally by: Velicitia
There are two mentalities in this game:
1. QQ it's not fair that $PLAYER did $THING to me, because $REASON
2. OK, $PLAYER did $THING to me, I'm gonna ask around and find out how to stop $THING and/or get my revenge.


As it stands now, there is no getting revenge on a sufficiently skilled player in a reasonable amount of time, for me anyway. I don't know how long other people can hold a grudge, but even if I could hold a grudge, I'd have to hold it for quite a while to be able to get revenge on players with 100 million skillpoints or whatever, although, I doubt I could do it at all, since I'd have to locate the character, scout what ship he/she was in and possible fittings, determine the strength of the players potential allies . . . I'm already discouraged, just from writing it out, and that doesn't even include the waiting for sufficient skill to accumulate to execute my plan.

Good thing I didn't play EVE to get revenge on people.

Originally by: Velicitia
Nowhere has anyone said it takes a year to become competitive. Maybe a few months (yes, longer than other MMOs at times). You'll learn things from the school of hard knocks along the way, if you can learn from these experiences, that's a good thing... if you refuse to learn and "give up", that's OK too -- just means EVE isn't for you.


You guys are engaging in doublespeak. You're saying endgame content is accessible early, but character progression must be preserved to keep characters from accessing content (i.e., endgame content) they aren't "ready" for. Which ones is it?

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.11 16:21:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Velicitia

As for training time, it was roughly doubled a few months ago when CCP nuked the learning skills. This was a good thing(tm) because now players can get right into the game, and not be told "train learning skills" for their first week or two.



Actually training time only increased for people who already had all their training skills maxed out (and it only increased marginally - you lost 1 attribute point over all, if I remember the math from the threadnaughts of the time correctly). Those of us who didn't follow the advice of "train them all now" received faster training as a result, because we ended up with more attribute points to play with than we had before the change.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.11 16:26:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Velicitia

As for training time, it was roughly doubled a few months ago when CCP nuked the learning skills. This was a good thing(tm) because now players can get right into the game, and not be told "train learning skills" for their first week or two.



Actually training time only increased for people who already had all their training skills maxed out (and it only increased marginally - you lost 1 attribute point over all, if I remember the math from the threadnaughts of the time correctly). Those of us who didn't follow the advice of "train them all now" received faster training as a result, because we ended up with more attribute points to play with than we had before the change.


Yeah, I had that backwards...

Learning skill removal essentially doubled the SP/hour for non-learning skill chars. Middle of the road people (4/3 or 4/4) probably didn't see much benefit, maybe some loss. 5/5 people probably lost out a bit...

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.11 18:05:00 - [96]
 

The biggest deal was the loss of the newbie skill packet.

It made it possible for a new player to try out many different starting skill sets quickly.

It wasn't perfect, but the ability to try different combinations and actually experience what it meant to have Racial Frigate 5 for each faction if you were that sort of player, meant a whole lot of quick exploration was possible in your trial period that is impossible to do in a similar way now.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:44:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
The biggest deal was the loss of the newbie skill packet.

It made it possible for a new player to try out many different starting skill sets quickly.

It wasn't perfect, but the ability to try different combinations and actually experience what it meant to have Racial Frigate 5 for each faction if you were that sort of player, meant a whole lot of quick exploration was possible in your trial period that is impossible to do in a similar way now.


The address THAT problem. Push to get the newbie skill packet back (or something similar). You're trying to fix something that you perceive as broken by adding something that won't even address the problem unless the newbie is willing to spend more money up front.

How many people do you think will stick with the game if you tell them "Well, yeah it's a free trial, but you should really spend $90 to get the full noob trial experience."

Does that make any amount of sense to you at all?

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.12 01:35:00 - [98]
 

Of course it makes sense to me to push that idea instead of buying skill points or packets, but that doesn't mean that I realized it before I posted it up there.

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.08.12 03:28:00 - [99]
 

Ok, so, in reference to the game balance post.

In the context of the game balance you have described, I wouldn't necessarily say it will problematically unbalance that set from a "he is unreasonably good" perspective.

But it will unbalance it from a diversity point of view.

Compare interceptors to dreads. Dreads are pretty simple to fly, but have a high equipment value. Interceptors are the opposite. So cheap they are almost free, but they take a lot of skill to fly.

But the SP input for interceptors is much lower then the SP input for dreads. The reality is, you can't count on isk, or money, to be a limiting factor. The value of E is negligible, no matter what you are talking about.

What is most important for game balance is that the ratio of character skill to player skill be fairly even in all cases. Titans can insta-pop carriers, whereas killing a carrier with a battleship takes skill and luck, and usually more then one battleship. In exchange for this vast different in player skill, character skill is used as a balancing factor.

The growth of character skill is limited by the flow of time. You want to replace that limit with the flow of money.

Remember, you cannot guarantee that this will limit anything.

The result will be a much lower diversity, and an increased entry cost. If everyone uses the easy to fly ships, new players will be forced to shell out in order to compete.

SGT FUNYOUN
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.12 04:02:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Magnus Orin
No.



ditto.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.12 04:14:00 - [101]
 

never!


Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.12 09:10:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 12/08/2011 09:11:32
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
The biggest deal was the loss of the newbie skill packet.

It made it possible for a new player to try out many different starting skill sets quickly.

It wasn't perfect, but the ability to try different combinations and actually experience what it meant to have Racial Frigate 5 for each faction if you were that sort of player, meant a whole lot of quick exploration was possible in your trial period that is impossible to do in a similar way now.


The address THAT problem. Push to get the newbie skill packet back (or something similar). You're trying to fix something that you perceive as broken by adding something that won't even address the problem unless the newbie is willing to spend more money up front.

How many people do you think will stick with the game if you tell them "Well, yeah it's a free trial, but you should really spend $90 to get the full noob trial experience."

Does that make any amount of sense to you at all?


This makes a whole lot more sense than the "SP for AUR!!" idea in the OP.

This might be better than an outright "skill packet" from day 1, that CCP used to give... since you had to re-make your character if you realized a few hours in that missioning/mining/whatever wasn't for you.

1. New toon is created, with "basic" stats (the 50k or so SP you get now). This might need reduced even further, and explain to the rookie that until they complete the tutorials they are not yet a fully licensed capsuleer (i.e. this is their final test).

2. re-work the rookie frigs such that they can only fit civilian modules (CPU/PG usage reduction to disallow fitting even one T1 item, or a "role bonus" to disallow using said modules)

3. re-work the tutorials to be balanced for a rookie frig to complete easily (while kitted out with civilian modules)

3.a. Add in some "PVP" tutorials -- e.g. use sleeper/incursion AI, and have the rookie help out a NPC frigate/dessie/cruiser (the mission would be "slow down the bad guys so the cruiser can hit them" or "keep them here, until reinforcements arrive"). This'll probably require civilian versions of points/webs.

4. After completing the tutorial arc, the rookie gets an "arc certificate" which certifies them for a specific type of play (miner, combat, explorer, whatever).

4.a. These certificates are the mission completion triggers for the starter agent. E.G. you have the mission "get your exploration certification from $AGENT, and return to me".

4.b. After completing *all* of the arcs (one per "profession"), go back to the starter agent and choose the certificate that you most "like".

5. You're given a "skillbook" that you have to train (would be instant, though description and last comments from training agent would indicate this is *NOT* how further skill training works). The skillbook gives the "old" base skills from the starting packages, but tweaked to fit the profession. For example, a combat pilot would get the skills for say a SAR, gunnery 2-3, racial frigates 2-3; whereas the "mining package" would get you frigate 2, mining 2-3, veld (and scord?) processing 2-3; and so on for other professions.

5.a. Somewhere in here, they give a tutorial on skill queue/training. Again, to reinforce that "normal" skill progression is in real-time, and the "rookie starting package" is an exception.

edit -- wall o' text Embarassed

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.12 13:23:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Newt Rondanse on 12/08/2011 13:24:02
@Velictia: good concept. Actually teaching more in the tutorials and giving a skill packet of choice upon completion would improve the new player experience immensely.


Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.08.12 14:37:00 - [104]
 

I quite like it as well. I always through the removal of the 800k SP was a mistake. I think at one point there was a 100% training speed bonus until you hit 1mil SP, but I couldn't even say for sure if that's still there.

To be perfectly honest, I would choose to simply roll back to the way it used to be. Pick some starting skills, nice and straightforward. But I understand how that can be confusing, and how picking a starting package would be more educational.

My choice would be to hybridise the two, and simply ask players if they want to pick a starting package now, and get a feel for the packages intended purpose first before picking one.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.12 15:01:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Sir Substance

My choice would be to hybridise the two, and simply ask players if they want to pick a starting package now, and get a feel for the packages intended purpose first before picking one.


This makes sense as an option in the character creator, essentially a "yeah, this is an alt, I already know how to play EVE, and I realize how bad of an idea it is to skip the EVE tutorial" type thing ... but it has to be VERY CLEAR that you really shouldn't skip the tutorials if you're a rookie.


De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.12 15:07:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Velicitia
Originally by: Sir Substance

My choice would be to hybridise the two, and simply ask players if they want to pick a starting package now, and get a feel for the packages intended purpose first before picking one.


This makes sense as an option in the character creator, essentially a "yeah, this is an alt, I already know how to play EVE, and I realize how bad of an idea it is to skip the EVE tutorial" type thing ... but it has to be VERY CLEAR that you really shouldn't skip the tutorials if you're a rookie.




I could get behind this idea quite easily. It helps the rookies get into the game and get skills they need, without breaking the game for everyone else.

Shane Roderick
Gallente
Hard Rock Mining Co.
Territorial Claim Unit
Posted - 2011.08.12 16:40:00 - [107]
 

Is there any way i can thumb down this post?


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