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CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.10 02:35:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Sir Substance
Again, you show a fundamental misunderstanding of this game. I wonder why it is that the people who keep demonstrating their ignorance are also the only ones who think the OP's idea is a good one?

Yes, titan pilots can be traded via character transfer, but the total number of titan pilots remains constant.

There is a difference between that and everyone and his mom being able to fly a titan. You think this is capital ships online now? Just you see what purchasable skillpoints will do to the situation.


What is shown is your fundamental ignorance of the economic REALITY that we live in. "Money doesn't grow on trees." your father might have told you when you were growing up. Money is a scarce resource versus the constant, inexorable flow of time. Most people would probably choose to wait a month rather than pay double to have double the skillpoints. And, that is the reason there are not a gazillion Titan pilots on Tranquility, already. It has little to do with your THEORY of "limited" skillpoints. It has a great deal to do with the FACT of limited money. Denying people an in game means of utility in exchange for money doesn't make people want to play the game more and it doesn't make the game more fair. It only protects the position of players who currently hold lots of skillpoints, whos advantage would be eroded by the introduction of a new class of higher skillpoint players.

Your "capital ships" online comment is very telling. No one but the highest skillpoint players would even say such a thing, since most players probably don't even interact with capital ships, letalone on a regular enough basis to be peeved by their perceived lack of balance. I, myself, have only laid eyes on a handful of capitals (cloaked in a Thrasher, woohoo!). I've never even been on grid with a Titan and only on grid once with a mothership.

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.08.10 07:37:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Sir Substance on 10/08/2011 07:39:40
Originally by: CanIPost Please
Money is a scarce resource versus the constant, inexorable flow of time.



It might be more accurate to say, money is scarce FOR YOU. Get a job, you bum.

I'm a university student doing random contract work to keep himself afloat, and I still rake in $500 a month. That figure puts me firmly in the "dirt poor" section of the world, and yet as I said before, $500 for 50 million skillpoints? I'd pay that in a second. A months pay to circumvent a third of a decades waiting time? **** yes.

Just because you can't afford it doesn't mean it isn't sitting somewhere between affordable and pocket change for everyone else. That applies for ISK as much as it does for $$$, just look at all the people paying $70 for a monocle. Doesn't matter whether they are spending 1.4bil ISK or $70, they clearly see the price as so little they are willing to spend it on a non-existent eyeglass that doesn't even look good.

The important thing is that although I'd pay that in a second, I also see the havoc that would create. It would ruin eve.

You are clearly blind to that, but then, you are obviously blind to many things.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.10 10:32:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: CanIPost Please
I started playing this game [bla bla]
I stand corrected, you're a n00b, not a newbie. That just makes it worse.
Quote:
How convenient to your argument. How would it cement the advantage I think it's solving?
Old players would have a higher “SP advantage” (Laughing) than ever, and new players would waste money on SP they don't need or can't use, making them worse off than if they took the time to train normally. They'd probably (rightfully) look at this as a complete scam and just quit.
Quote:
Fewer skillpoints = better . . . double-u tee eff.
No. Fewer wasted, useless skillpoints pointing you in the wrong direction = better. Skillpoints that suit new players rather than alts = better. Skillpoints (or, more acurately, skills) matched with teaching and tutorial progress = better.
Quote:
If spending the money won't help them, then why do you care so much?
Because it doesn't just not help them — it makes things worse for them, for no good reason. It assumes the game works in a way it doesn't actually work and tries to fix a problem that doesn't exist, and is likely to create the problem it is intended to solve in the process on top of the obvious ones such as ruining the “SP economy” and variety of the game. As such, it's a not just waste of development time but a harmful one at that.
Quote:
Most people would probably choose to wait a month rather than pay double to have double the skillpoints. And, that is the reason there are not a gazillion Titan pilots on Tranquility, already.
No. The reason there aren't a gazillion Titan pilots is because it takes time to create one, and the benefit to spending all that time rather than something else is questionable. The opportunity cost for this highly specialised and (much) less than universally useful capability is immense. If people could just create them by plunking down cash, you can bet your ass we'd see a gazillion of them: because money is not really an obstacle, and because it completely removes the part of the opportunity cost that matters.
Quote:
Denying people an in game means of utility in exchange for money doesn't make people want to play the game more and it doesn't make the game more fair
There already is a fair and equal in-game mean to get a whatever you want. What you're talking about is an inherently unfair and unequal out-of-game mean…

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:41:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Newt Rondanse on 10/08/2011 13:41:33
The Titan pilot example is actually really bad, because the benefit of a Titan pilot to the person is essentially political rather than game mechanics.

More realistically, you see PvP pilots, Hulk pilots, and a bunch of other roles that an experienced gamer (not necessarily experienced with EvE) will not want to wait for months to get into, and that an inexperienced gamer will be able to learn on without having to learn how to manage a skillplan at the same time.

All for sale right now just a couple of forums down.

All CCP has to do is pregenerate some skillplans, put the points together, and sell them. Conveniently they have already generated skillplans in the certificate system.

Would you have a problem with a newbie buying "Core Competency {Elite}"?

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:54:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Sir Substance on 10/08/2011 13:54:30
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

The Titan pilot example is actually really bad, because the benefit of a Titan pilot to the person is essentially political rather than game mechanics.


Again, you are wrong. Titans are humungous penis extensions, and if there is one thing we know about the human race, its that collectively, it will pay lots of money for penis extensions.

You think people would pay money for skill points and then spend it on getting into a hulk quicker?

You're wrong.

Again.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:24:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Sir Substance
Edited by: Sir Substance on 10/08/2011 13:54:30
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

The Titan pilot example is actually really bad, because the benefit of a Titan pilot to the person is essentially political rather than game mechanics.


Again, you are wrong. Titans are humungous penis extensions, and if there is one thing we know about the human race, its that collectively, it will pay lots of money for penis extensions.

You think people would pay money for skill points and then spend it on getting into a hulk quicker?

You're wrong.

Again.

I didn't say that people wouldn't do it, but that it is a bad example.

Of course, for the <1% of players that are in leadership roles in nullsec alliances I am sure that just anyone being able to lose a titan without their say-so is a big kick in the e-peen, but for the rest of us it really doesn't matter.

Hence my suggestion at the end: sell certificate-based skill packages.

This avoids people "misusing" raw skillpoints, and there isn't a Titan certificate. (Though I'm sure that CCP could put one in just to upset you).

CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.10 21:26:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Sir Substance
Money is free and we should work to play EVE Online.


Gotcha.

Originally by: Tippia
Oh, the newbies! The poor, poor newbies! Oh, the humanity!

money is not really an obstacle

There already is a fair and equal in-game mean to get a whatever you want. What you're talking about is an inherently unfair and unequal out-of-game mean…


Gotcha.

Gotcha.

To your last point, there is no strictly in-game means of advancing one's skill training. The progress of our skill training is a function of your character attributes and the external flow of money into CCP's accounts and the external flow of time. CCP doesn't just hand out free memory and CPU time on their hardware, and using their proprietary software.

Originally by: Sir Substance
Again, you are wrong. Titans are humungous ***** extensions, and if there is one thing we know about the human race, its that collectively, it will pay lots of money for ***** extensions.

You think people would pay money for skill points and then spend it on getting into a hulk quicker?

You're wrong.


You are out of touch . . . maybe with reality. Maybe the problem with this game is that people who have trouble relating to the real world and are fixated on ***** size have come to dominate it.

And, I would pay a little more money to get into a Hulk.

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.08.10 21:42:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Sir Substance on 10/08/2011 21:49:42
Originally by: CanIPost Please
Originally by: Sir Substance
Money is free and we should work to play EVE Online.


Gotcha.

Since you clearly don't have a counter-argument to anything I just said, I'll take that to mean I won that one. Saw that coming a mile away.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

Hence my suggestion at the end: sell certificate-based skill packages.

This avoids people "misusing" raw skillpoints, and there isn't a Titan certificate. (Though I'm sure that CCP could put one in just to upset you).


That's certainly a less terrible idea then being able to freely apply skillpoints where ever you want, but being comparatively less bad is not the same as being good. Skillpoints, certificates et al. are a way of keeping score. If someone is a 2008 player, and has 40mil SP, you know they've been playing the full three years and have three years of experience. If you can buy SP, then that person might be using a trial account they made in '08, and have only a months experience.

There are very few rewards to long term playing in EVE. Once you've played for long enough, you've done everything enough times that almost everything is quite boring, which is why you fairly often hear vets asking for more endgame content. But high SP, and the flexibility and desirability that comes with that, is the ultimate reward.

CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.10 22:44:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Sir Substance
Since you clearly don't have a counter-argument to anything I just said, I'll take that to mean I won that one. Saw that coming a mile away.


I don't have a counter-argument to your opinion that $500 is chump change and EVE Onilne should be the focus of our lives, no.

Originally by: Sir Substance
If someone is a 2008 player, and has 40mil SP, you know they've been playing the full three years and have three years of experience. If you can buy SP, then that person might be using a trial account they made in '08, and have only a months experience.


Who cares? At some point, you have to stop playing the meta-game and start playing the actual game.

Originally by: Sir Substance
There are very few rewards to long term playing in EVE. Once you've played for long enough, you've done everything enough times that almost everything is quite boring, which is why you fairly often hear vets asking for more endgame content. But high SP, and the flexibility and desirability that comes with that, is the ultimate reward.


So, quit. If the game has grown stale, leave. You can even keep your subscription going and keep acquiring more skillpoints by your vaunted real-time skillpoint training system. What you shouldn't do is try to ****-block the rest of us from having MORE fun in a game we actually like playing. My God . . . **** off.

And, the endgame content is supposed to be domination of more and more space and resources. Unfortunately, that takes planning and vision and creativity and intelligence and organization and charisma n' ****. It's much easier for some people to use channels outside the game to win at that point, which is what we see you doing here and probably other places and by other means as well.

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.08.10 23:37:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Sir Substance on 10/08/2011 23:36:59
Originally by: CanIPost Please
Originally by: Sir Substance
Since you clearly don't have a counter-argument to anything I just said, I'll take that to mean I won that one. Saw that coming a mile away.


I don't have a counter-argument to your opinion that $500 is chump change and EVE Onilne should be the focus of our lives, no.


HAHA DISREGARD THAT I SUCK COCKS



Putting words in peoples mouths never wins arguments, but thanks for coming out of the closet.
Laughing

CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.10 23:56:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Sir Substance

Putting words in peoples mouths never wins arguments, but thanks for coming out of the closet.
Laughing


It is usually in the best interest of people with hidden and/or malevolent agendas to use language and communication style that obfuscates. That is what I see you doing. That is why I only reiterate what you say in plainer terms. If I have mischaracterized anything that you said, I will apologize sincerely. Just tell me where and what.

I won't hold my breath.

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.08.11 00:46:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: CanIPost Please

It is usually in the best interest of people with hidden and/or malevolent agendas to use language and communication style that obfuscates.


Should my agenda be contrary to that which would be beneficial to a game such as this one, I think you would find upon closer inspection that I am capable of using rhetoric of a superior grade in order to obfuscate my intent within an unnecessarily verbose vernacular.

From my point of view it seems that some of the people posting within this thread such as your esteemed self might consider my posting opaque in its meaning due in no small part to your own shortcomings within the sphere of literacy, as I use language of a class any man who considers himself well educated should comprehend with no difficulty, and yet you profess to find it obfuscatory.

Many would consider this an extreme lack of context on your part, to consider plain language impermeable, and I think it likely that during your formulative years you did experience an extreme lack of appropriate materials from which to expand your vocabulary, and truly, it shows.

You sir, are a dunce if you find my posting hard to understand.

CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.11 01:11:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Sir Substance
Originally by: CanIPost Please

It is usually in the best interest of people with hidden and/or malevolent agendas to use language and communication style that obfuscates.


Should my agenda be contrary to that which would be beneficial to a game such as this one, I think you would find upon closer inspection that I am capable of using rhetoric of a superior grade in order to obfuscate my intent within an unnecessarily verbose vernacular.

From my point of view it seems that some of the people posting within this thread such as your esteemed self might consider my posting opaque in its meaning due in no small part to your own shortcomings within the sphere of literacy, as I use language of a class any man who considers himself well educated should comprehend with no difficulty, and yet you profess to find it obfuscatory.

Many would consider this an extreme lack of context on your part, to consider plain language impermeable, and I think it likely that during your formulative years you did experience an extreme lack of appropriate materials from which to expand your vocabulary, and truly, it shows.

You sir, are a dunce if you find my posting hard to understand.


Using big words and being a liar are two different things. I didn't accuse you of using big words.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.11 01:16:00 - [74]
 

So, I still haven't seen anybody say what allowing poeple to buy their skillpoints all at once instead of a month at a time breaks.

Let alone adress the idea of using the certification system as a template mechanism for those skillpoint purchases to keep everything neat.

That must mean that there is no problem, and that the cert idea is pretty darn good. Thanks.

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.08.11 04:06:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
So, I still haven't seen anybody say what allowing poeple to buy their skillpoints all at once instead of a month at a time breaks.



It breaks the motivation system in eve. This again is something newer players, with stuff still to train, find hard to understand. When you can have everything, there is nothing to strive for, and then what will you do?

Lack of external motivation is eve's biggest flaw. I spend (surprisingly) a fair amount of time welcoming brand new players to the game, and that lack of direction is what causes most of them to apathetically let their sub lapse, or never get it in the first place.

People are used to being told in games, "This is your goal". "Do this, to win". Eve doesn't have much of that. The missions exist on a horizontal plane, their only reason for existance to be an isk faucet. There is no question progression, you never get directed to the next area like you do in some other games (WoW).

Often, new players log in, do the tutorial, run some missions and then log off, go play Call of Duty or w/e and never bother logging back in. Lots of people in this word are simply not self-directed enough. Upon being told, "amuse yourself in any way you could possibly wish, there are no rules", they choose to instead ask for directions on how to be amused.

There is only one constant goal-setting system in eve, and its the skill queue. If eve used a leveling system where you had to work to level, we wouldn't even be discussing this. The neccesity of a leveling system is obvious, it functions as a mental fishhook, to keep drawing you back (sometimes against your will, depending on mental conditions you might have) and paying for as long as possible.

CCP chose to make it a passive thing, but it fulfills the same purpose, ina different way:

"I will have Caldari battleships lvl 1 in 4 days, better have a scorpion by then!"

BAM! A goal is created. The skill system creates time-based goals, to aquire the item you are training for by the time it has trained.

In addition, it creates anticipation.

"In two days, I will finish Advanced weapons upgrades 3, and then I can finally use this amazing sleipnir fit, its gonna be so frigging awesome!"

It's well known that anticipation has a more positive effect on the human brain then the actual aquesition of an object.

These two effects combine to create almost 100% of the early game grip in eve. By the time you are old enough that the skill queue is slow enough that these effects deminish, you have other reasons to stick around. Friends to keep company, enemies to smite etc.

Now imagine we remove that. What do we see?

Initial surge of revenue for CCP. No concept of "you can never catch up to someone who started two years before you" is broken, surges of players join, and pay between $50 and $1000 each to get between 5 and 100 million skillpoints on their character.

How long do these people stay for? Small numbers of them stay forever. They get gripped immediately by the endgame, and dive right in.

Many leave within 6 months. They can't afford the isk for the ships they want to fly, and/or they keep losing them because although they have the SP, they do not understand basic game mechanics.

They see their initial investment as a waste of money.

many medium term players leave within 6 months. They fulfill all their initial goals, and since any goal is within reach with an investment of but a few tens of dollars, they never formulate new ones. Nothing is worthwhile.

All veterens leave. They feel cheated, that all their effort, time and patience is replicated with a mere fistfull of bills from anyone who started playing yesterday. They and their enemies move to different games (perpetuum, WoT etc.)

Long term prognosis: CCP's account subscriptions quarter, and cycle regularly. All those stories of year long wars and schemes vanish as players pop in and out of the game. Eve loses its appeal.

Death in 3 years

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.11 04:53:00 - [76]
 

I see your point, and you are wrong.

It doesn't work that way for most people. What really happens is people get sick of waiting and quit.

I already did so once, It might happen again, but now I have enough access to the game that it is less likely.

I have watched others struggle with the broken interface and unnecessarily complex training and give up in a matter of hours to days.

WoW has an order of magnitude more active, paying subscribers than EVE, and that is with having to pay for upgrades and having a character progression cap that can be hit within a month or two.

That might be a coincidence, or it might be that the focus on a 7-year realtime training path for full access is just too much commitment for a game.

Before you say "so go play WoW", think about the consequences if too many people make that choice. Elitism has a price.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:51:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 11/08/2011 09:52:43
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
I see your point, and you are wrong.

It doesn't work that way for most people. What really happens is people get sick of waiting and quit.



Yeah "most people". EVE is (and always will be) a niche game. It'll never be "mainstream" in the sense that Ultima, Evercrack, and Warcrack have been/are.

This is not a game for "most people". It is a game for people who want a sandbox, and the ability to take that sandbox, and build a sandcastle (and, at some point, kick the other kids' sandcastles over).

I've helped rookies before, and many of the newer ones are missing that sense of "what can *WE* do" and have a sense of "what will *YOU* do for *ME*".

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

I have watched others struggle with the broken interface and unnecessarily complex training and give up in a matter of hours to days.


Training isn't exactly complex. Look at $ITEM, see what you need in order to use/fly. Train skills. Alternatively, EVEMon to set longer plans.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
WoW has an order of magnitude more active, paying subscribers than EVE, and that is with having to pay for upgrades and having a character progression cap that can be hit within a month or two.


People play WOW because they want a mindless "on rails" PVE only game.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
That might be a coincidence, or it might be that the focus on a 7-year realtime training path for full access is just too much commitment for a game.


Funny, I had full access to the game after about a week and a half (when I subbed -- obvious "trial account banned" stuff was missing before then). I think I made a trip to the EVE-Gate a month or two in. Was in low sometime around when I thought you needed shield, armour, AND hull repairers on a Tristan... and that missiles + blaster + railgun was a "good idea" (obviously, I got nuked in about 3 sec flat)... that was MAYBE 3 weeks in?

Granted I learned my lesson that lowsec was a scary place to avoid at all costs (which I did for a good long while) ... but have come around to realize that it's not nearly as dangerous as my first forays would have indicated.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Before you say "so go play WoW", think about the consequences if too many people make that choice. Elitism has a price.

Fact of the matter is, EVE isn't for everyone. That choice is up to each person individually...

I'd rather keep static subs for a while, if CCP continued to work on what makes EVE, instead of sacrificing EVE to get millions of subs.

edit --

@ Substance -> well said sir. Are you perchance one of the monocled elite in disguise? Laughing

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.08.11 11:11:00 - [78]
 

Velicitia, I'm so glad you are here. I've had a wonderful afternoon of girl-troubles, I so didn't feel like explaining the niche appeal thing.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.11 11:44:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Sir Substance
Velicitia, I'm so glad you are here. I've had a wonderful afternoon of girl-troubles, I so didn't feel like explaining the niche appeal thing.


<Brit accent>
Thank ye, m'lord for pausing to speak with ...
</accent>

ah, **** it... can't keep a straight faceLaughing

TBH though, I'm a bit surprised I'm on the same side as (at least one) pilot(s) in TEARS. You're generally the type that I avoid encounters with (since they generally end in your favour).

To the guys who don't quite get it -- Yes, I really am an indy person(as shown in another poast where I had a completely sucky Rifter setup/training plan Embarassed)

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.11 12:10:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Velicitia
Edited by: Velicitia on 11/08/2011 09:52:43
Originally by: Newt Rondanse
I see your point, and you are wrong.

It doesn't work that way for most people. What really happens is people get sick of waiting and quit.



Yeah "most people". EVE is (and always will be) a niche game. It'll never be "mainstream" in the sense that Ultima, Evercrack, and Warcrack have been/are.


Because it doesn't even bother trying to hide the database behind the internet spaceships.

Sometimes "niche appeal" just means "crap design".
Originally by: Velicitia


This is not a game for "most people". It is a game for people who want a sandbox, and the ability to take that sandbox, and build a sandcastle (and, at some point, kick the other kids' sandcastles over).

I've helped rookies before, and many of the newer ones are missing that sense of "what can *WE* do" and have a sense of "what will *YOU* do for *ME*".


That part is just kids. They get that way.
But how many newbies a week do you interact with personally? If you are interacting with enough of them to budge the meter on the new player experience, CCP should be paying you for doing their job for them.
Originally by: Velicitia

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

I have watched others struggle with the broken interface and unnecessarily complex training and give up in a matter of hours to days.


Training isn't exactly complex. Look at $ITEM, see what you need in order to use/fly. Train skills. Alternatively, EVEMon to set longer plans.


First you have to figure out what it is that you want to use/fly. Then you need to figure out how the training interface even works, people go for weeks without discovering the queue (if they make it that far into the game).
It's hidden in a nondescript button in the character sheet, just because we know where it is, doesn't mean it's obvious.
Originally by: Velicitia

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
WoW has an order of magnitude more active, paying subscribers than EVE, and that is with having to pay for upgrades and having a character progression cap that can be hit within a month or two.


People play WOW because they want a mindless "on rails" PVE only game.


Tell that to my daughter, a bloodthirsty PvP'r if I've ever met one. She loves WoW PvP, and finds EVE too boring for words.

Frankly, I don't engage in much EVE PvP because it's almost always like being on one side or another of a 10-level gank, not fun to lose like that, not much more fun to win like that.

Originally by: Velicitia

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
That might be a coincidence, or it might be that the focus on a 7-year realtime training path for full access is just too much commitment for a game.


Funny, I had full access to the game after about a week and a half (when I subbed -- obvious "trial account banned" stuff was missing before then). I think I made a trip to the EVE-Gate a month or two in. Was in low sometime around when I thought you needed shield, armour, AND hull repairers on a Tristan... and that missiles + blaster + railgun was a "good idea" (obviously, I got nuked in about 3 sec flat)... that was MAYBE 3 weeks in?


At that point in the game you only had full access in a nominal sense. You could go anywhere, but how long, even with multiple accounts to train in parallel (for the price of paying additional money to CCP for the accelerated training) before you could do everything?
Originally by: Velicitia

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
Before you say "so go play WoW", think about the consequences if too many people make that choice. Elitism has a price.

Fact of the matter is, EVE isn't for everyone. That choice is up to each person individually...

I'd rather keep static subs for a while, if CCP continued to work on what makes EVE, instead of sacrificing EVE to get millions of subs.


WoW isn't for everyone, either. But it is accessible to a lot more people.

You don't need to take the teeth out of EVE to make it accessible.

Traffic Warden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.08.11 12:19:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Sir Substance


LOADS OF STUFF




Normally this argument just goes:

Noob: It's not fair I have no patience and want everything now QQ
Bittervet: I had to suffer it so everyone else must too. I hate when things change.

But that actually makes a lot of sense.

I doff my hat to you sir.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.11 12:32:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 11/08/2011 12:33:04
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

That part is just kids. They get that way.
But how many newbies a week do you interact with personally? If you are interacting with enough of them to budge the meter on the new player experience, CCP should be paying you for doing their job for them.



fresh out of "school" new rookies in their first rookie frig? 3-5
New pilots of sub 6 month time? probably the same group of 20 daily... with a few coming and going from time to time.

No, I'm not a uni pilot.
Also, we like *not* having the 13 year old kids in EVE.


Originally by: Newt Rondanse

First you have to figure out what it is that you want to use/fly. Then you need to figure out how the training interface even works, people go for weeks without discovering the queue (if they make it that far into the game).
It's hidden in a nondescript button in the character sheet, just because we know where it is, doesn't mean it's obvious.



Yeah, figuring out what you want to do takes time. But that doesn't mean you can't/won't/shouldn't train the basics pointed out in the tutorials.

IIRC, Tutorials point it out (skill training anyway). Not entirely the right click -> "train to level X now" thing is exactly "difficult" though.

If the tutorials don't explain the queue, everyone in rookie chat (that 30d time limit one), rookie corp chat, and help all point it out pretty often.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

Tell that to my daughter, a bloodthirsty PvP'r if I've ever met one. She loves WoW PvP, and finds EVE too boring for words.

Frankly, I don't engage in much EVE PvP because it's almost always like being on one side or another of a 10-level gank, not fun to lose like that, not much more fun to win like that.


And what's the population of a wow "PVP" server as compared to a "PVE" server?

When she gets ganked in WOW, there's what? Some item damage and a rez timer? That's essentially a gentlemen's agreement fight in EVE (first into hull loses, etc).

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

At that point in the game you only had full access in a nominal sense. You could go anywhere, but how long, even with multiple accounts to train in parallel (for the price of paying additional money to CCP for the accelerated training) before you could do everything?



*NO ONE* in this game can do "everything" (barring Chribba -- Chribba be praisedCool). It's 25-30 years of training to skill into "everything". However, I was doing what I wanted to do within 2 months (first month or so being "train learning skills"). Yeah, I've spent 4 years on and off perfecting some areas (and completely ignoring others)... but that doesn't mean I can't do everything I want.

If "I can do everything by myself" is your token for 'getting somewhere', EVE probably isn't for you.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

WoW isn't for everyone, either. But it is accessible to a lot more people.

You don't need to take the teeth out of EVE to make it accessible.


Seems that I, and others find EVE to have the "right amount" of accessibility. EVE has been (and always *should* be) a cold, unforgiving place wherein you have to live with the consequences of your actions.

Yes, CCP/EVE have rough spots. Yes, the rough spots can be fixed up. No, EVE cannot be accessible to a similar audience as WOW without completely obliterating the core "values" that the game has been built upon.

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.08.11 12:49:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

That part is just kids. They get that way.
But how many newbies a week do you interact with personally? If you are interacting with enough of them to budge the meter on the new player experience, CCP should be paying you for doing their job for them.



I've had an application in to STAR for volunteer work for about two years now. They never call back ;_;

I'm going to respond to your post as a series of dotpoints, since this is getting very verbose.

1. Sometimes "niche appeal" just means "crap design".


Not often, in my experience. But even if it is, that's not a call for re-engineering of core game archetecture at this late stage. Crap designs should always be scrapped and replaced. If eve truly is a crap design, trying to re-engineer it now that its launched and 8 years into active use is fruitless. Especially considering the alleged state of some of the codebase (starbases code is allegedly so bad CCP doesn't dare touch it incase it makes the servers suddenly turn into cupcakes), any professional would tell you to take what you've learned and start again from scratch.

2. It's hidden in a nondescript button in the character sheet, just because we know where it is, doesn't mean it's obvious.

Anyone who says eve has a good UI has never played eve. Still, I've seen people play games with worse UI's.

ADOM, for example. Did you know the ! key lets you dip daggers in poison, and if you don't wipe your face periodically it lowers your charisma? Guess what the key for picking things up is? Thats right, its that old staple of gaming shortcuts, the semicolon!

More practically, Deux Ex, one of the most heralded games ever, had the } button as the toggle zoom key.

And lets face it, WoW's default UI is woefully inadequate. Minimum addon install for all players is bartender and bagnon, and then anyone semi-serious will need omniCC, deadlyBossMods, atlasLoot, Auctioneer, questhelper, recount and Omen Threat Meter. By the time you are done, Theres nothing left of blizzards UI.

Do you have any idea how long that **** takes to configure on a new character?

People can work bad UI's if the game suits them. Still, I'd support you if you asked for better UI design of any part of the game, including skill management. I'd prefer an addon system like WoW though. One of the few good things about that game.


3. Frankly, I don't engage in much EVE PvP because it's almost always like being on one side or another of a 10-level gank, not fun to lose like that, not much more fun to win like that.

There are organisations out there that will provide 1v1 PvP. Suddenly ninjas does it all the time. Fair? Never, but always 1v1. RvB also is around. If nothing suits, make your own. Self-direction man!

Take control of the destiny that is rightfully yours!


4. At that point in the game you only had full access in a nominal sense. You could go anywhere, but how long, even with multiple accounts to train in parallel (for the price of paying additional money to CCP for the accelerated training) before you could do everything?


Freedom is not the ownership, it is the opportunity. Its not about being able to do anything now, its about being able to choose any goal and pursue it.

Again, self direction! Ambition! These are the things that make eve great. These are what you may not have from competing offers. Its not the destination, but always the journey.

5. You don't need to take the teeth out of EVE to make it accessible.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. But that doesn't mean that this suggestion is the solution.

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.08.11 12:51:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Traffic Warden
Originally by: Sir Substance


LOADS OF STUFF




Normally this argument just goes:

Noob: It's not fair I have no patience and want everything now QQ
Bittervet: I had to suffer it so everyone else must too. I hate when things change.

But that actually makes a lot of sense.

I doff my hat to you sir.


God help anyone who actually asks me a serious question. The only thing saving you from drowning under a sea of endless, yet exquisitely high quality, posting is the 3000 letter character limit.Very Happy

CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.11 13:52:00 - [85]
 

I think what you guys mean to say, whether you realize it or not, is not that EVE Online is a niche game. It's not. Science fiction has been mainstream for quite a while. Look at Halo and Star Wars. Rather, you mean to say that you WANT EVE Online to be a niche game, a special game, so that by virtue of having been so dedicated to it, you can acquire some of that specialiness.

No one is trying to invalidate that. But systems have to change in order to stay viable, otherwise, people will learn to game those systems to the point of near total corruption. And, that is definitely the case in EVE. There are so many hacks running around in it with multiple accounts that you would have to play for 2 or 3 years in order to be able to make any headway in achieving anything worthwhile (or live on your knees). No one plays that way, though. No one sits down to play a game of Madden thinking "I'm gonna kick so much ass at this game next year." . . . with the exception, maybe, of MMORPG players. It's not that we're impatient. It's that . . . it's just a game, and we want to have fun playing now, because we're free NOW. We don't want to wait a year to be able to pass the ball without some jerk in a Crow intercepting it EVERY TIME or some bully linebacker in a Machariel practically taking the handoff on every play or some "veteran" in a Titan running every kick return right back into our endzone. That's no fun, and if you look at the growth of the EVE player base and compare it to the overall growth in online gaming, I think you'll see that there is room for improvement in this game, still. This doesn't have to be the "late stage". This can be the beginning.




Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.11 14:20:00 - [86]
 

Too much stuff in the 2 replies to my last post to go point-by point right now, but the gist I get is that you think that allowing players to advance more rapidly in the game than the current training mechanisms will allow will change the character of the game in ways that you dislike.

I get that. Really, I understand what you are saying.

What I don't get is any indication that it will actually change anything to do with play balance, or that there is really any problem with it other than a belief that making people wait months to fly a battleship is in some way a good thing.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.11 14:24:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 11/08/2011 14:26:41
Originally by: CanIPost Please
I think what you guys mean to say, whether you realize it or not, is not that EVE Online is a niche game. It's not. Science fiction has been mainstream for quite a while. Look at Halo and Star Wars. Rather, you mean to say that you WANT EVE Online to be a niche game, a special game, so that by virtue of having been so dedicated to it, you can acquire some of that specialiness.


Sci-Fi isn't a niche so much anymore, that much is true. EVE does fill a niche in the "MMO world" -- with the exception of perpetuum, I cannot think of any sandbox MMOs offhand.

Originally by: CanIPost Please
No one is trying to invalidate that. But systems have to change in order to stay viable, otherwise, people will learn to game those systems to the point of near total corruption. And, that is definitely the case in EVE. There are so many hacks running around in it with multiple accounts that you would have to play for 2 or 3 years in order to be able to make any headway in achieving anything worthwhile (or live on your knees).

Funny, most people can get into a nullsec sov holding alliance in a year if they so wanted to. Probably faster if they worked hard at learning the game instead of complaining that they can't compete...

Originally by: CanIPost Please
No one plays that way, though. No one sits down to play a game of Madden thinking "I'm gonna kick so much ass at this game next year." . . . with the exception, maybe, of MMORPG players. It's not that we're impatient. It's that . . . it's just a game, and we want to have fun playing now, because we're free NOW. We don't want to wait a year to be able to pass the ball without some jerk in a Crow intercepting it EVERY TIME or some bully linebacker in a Machariel practically taking the handoff on every play or some "veteran" in a Titan running every kick return right back into our endzone. That's no fun, and if you look at the growth of the EVE player base and compare it to the overall growth in online gaming, I think you'll see that there is room for improvement in this game, still. This doesn't have to be the "late stage". This can be the beginning.



Can you make your analogies using proper football and/or cars?

You can get into EVE's "endgame" in a few months, just like with nearly any other MMO game. You can be competitive in combat fleets in days/weeks if you wanted.
That said, industry/mining takes a little while longer... about a year or so to be "perfect" across the board (missioning for standings takes only a few months though).

There are two mentalities in this game:
1. QQ it's not fair that $PLAYER did $THING to me, because $REASON
2. OK, $PLAYER did $THING to me, I'm gonna ask around and find out how to stop $THING and/or get my revenge.

Nowhere has anyone said it takes a year to become competitive. Maybe a few months (yes, longer than other MMOs at times). You'll learn things from the school of hard knocks along the way, if you can learn from these experiences, that's a good thing... if you refuse to learn and "give up", that's OK too -- just means EVE isn't for you.

edit -- @ Newt -> do you really think allowing a rookie into a 50m+ ship a week into the game, only to have it go "boom" from the first mission they try would be "fun" for them?

And even if it was "fun" ... which is better:

* Saving/planning for something (anything, even in RL)
* Being given everything


Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.08.11 14:30:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Sir Substance on 11/08/2011 14:30:45
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

What I don't get is any indication that it will actually change anything to do with play balance


Play balance can be used as a very nebulous concept. Would you care to define its meaning in this specific context?

(be wary, I may use it against you for the rest of the thread)

BTW Velicitia, I've come to the conclusion that CIPP is a)retarded and b) trolling. I'm ignoring him, since I now <3 this thread and don't want it to derail too much.

I've changed my mind about newt, the man can hold a debate.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.11 14:47:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Sir Substance
Edited by: Sir Substance on 11/08/2011 14:30:45
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

What I don't get is any indication that it will actually change anything to do with play balance


Play balance can be used as a very nebulous concept. Would you care to define its meaning in this specific context?

(be wary, I may use it against you for the rest of the thread)

BTW Velicitia, I've come to the conclusion that CIPP is a)retarded and b) trolling. I'm ignoring him, since I now <3 this thread and don't want it to derail too much.

I've changed my mind about newt, the man can hold a debate.


Yeah, I was starting to get that feeling too.

he would be interesting to leave in a room with Tom Gerard or that spruillo character from C&P

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.11 15:02:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Sir Substance
Edited by: Sir Substance on 11/08/2011 14:30:45
Originally by: Newt Rondanse

What I don't get is any indication that it will actually change anything to do with play balance


Play balance can be used as a very nebulous concept. Would you care to define its meaning in this specific context?

(be wary, I may use it against you for the rest of the thread)


There are three components to character performance in any RPG:
Player skill
Character skill
Equipment

Each game has a different balance of these factors, and different ways of accessing them.

In EVE the dominant factor in performance is character skill. It controls what equipment you can use and it effects performance of tasks.

What speeding up skill point allocation does (in any way, whether it's just increasing the base training rate or allowing people to buy skill points or skill packages) is shift the balance more towards equipment and player skill.

The shift towards equipment comes by increasing access to equipment so allowing players to buy whatever they think they will need.

The shift towards player skill comes from allowing character skills to surpass what the player is capable of handling at any given point, so instead of low character skills causing a skilled player to underperform you get more instances of low player skills causing a skilled character to underperform.

There is the philosophical point of whether delayed gratification is good for the soul, but I'll leave that one for theologians.

So yes, my proposal would indeed change aspects of the game. That is the point of it, to adjust the game balance in what I (as an experienced gamer who picks up play skills fairly readily) consider a direction that would be more fun for me, and would favor my natural abilities.

For me, the big frustration is in something as simple as the time needed to cross-train the different racial specializations so that I can try them properly. Thank goodness for BC's or I'd have given up the project in disgust long before I was able to do so properly (even then getting all the Medium weapon skills trained up properly is a pain and a half).

Yeah, yeah "specialize". Specialization is for ants.


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