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blankseplocked Heavy Missile Launcher, Or Heavy Assault Missile Launcher on T3
 
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Kara Books
Posted - 2011.08.07 11:23:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Kara Books on 07/08/2011 11:53:31
I was on battle-clinic and I keep seeing Tengu builds with Heavy assault missile launcher builds, Always with very high votes, I dont see any Highly voted Heavy missile builds.

I asked quite a few people and every one suggests Heavy missiles, but Im still confused, I simply don't compute, why Heavy assault is voted higher by many strangers, while friends tell me go with Heavy.

Can Some one please, resolve this for me, What is better, Heavy missiles or Heavy assault missiles on a T3 cruiser for level 4/5 and Incursions?
Why is it better?
Train both skills?
Which skill is better to train now, or is there some kind of training regiment or some kind of big secret to this Heavy VS Assault?

I run around in a drake, with heavy missiles right now and im at the point where I have to chose, once and for all, Heavy missiles or Heavy assault missile's.

Thank you!

bartos100
DARK ADAMA
Terra Axiom
Posted - 2011.08.07 12:09:00 - [2]
 

heavy missiles have a long range while heavy assault missiles have a short range but higher dps

heavy missiles are still the best for PVE as most of the time assault's do not have the range

for pvp it is more depending on what you intend to do again range is the issue :)

Kara Books
Posted - 2011.08.07 12:38:00 - [3]
 

How big is the range difference?

Ymir Esubria
Posted - 2011.08.07 12:47:00 - [4]
 

Heavies easily get 100km range at support skills 4, I'd assume alot more in Tengu's thanks to offensive subs.
My HAM Tengu (pve only at that) has an EFT range of 35 km at the moment, offensive sub at 5 rest at 4, T1 range increasing rigs, T1 missiles.
Full skilled with rages you can get 45km or so, javelins 60 I believe. These numbers are all rough off the top of my head mind.

Having said that, I personally like the HAM dps enough to fly around a bit more, Tengu has the speed to do it anyway. Heavies do more damage per volley, but fire rate is lower. HAM tengu with Caldari navy BC's and T2 launchers gets around 1K dps according to corp mates who fly em. I don't know anyone who flies a Heavy Missile Tengu.

Kara Books
Posted - 2011.08.07 12:51:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Ymir Esubria
Heavies easily get 100km range at support skills 4, I'd assume alot more in Tengu's thanks to offensive subs.
My HAM Tengu (pve only at that) has an EFT range of 35 km at the moment, offensive sub at 5 rest at 4, T1 range increasing rigs, T1 missiles.
Full skilled with rages you can get 45km or so, javelins 60 I believe. These numbers are all rough off the top of my head mind.

Having said that, I personally like the HAM dps enough to fly around a bit more, Tengu has the speed to do it anyway. Heavies do more damage per volley, but fire rate is lower. HAM tengu with Caldari navy BC's and T2 launchers gets around 1K dps according to corp mates who fly em. I don't know anyone who flies a Heavy Missile Tengu.


Thank you very much.

Esperio Ferver
Posted - 2011.08.07 13:30:00 - [6]
 

also, take a look at the explosion radius difference.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.08.07 14:42:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Esperio Ferver
also, take a look at the explosion radius difference.



This. HAMs are a lot less effective vs small ships, and in a ship with no drone bay that's a serious disadvantage. Add in the utility of being able to hit out to 110Km or so, and that makes HMLs a winner for me.

Kara Books
Posted - 2011.08.07 14:47:00 - [8]
 

All of this is good information.

Diamaht Nevain
Gallente
Avatar Union
Posted - 2011.08.07 14:52:00 - [9]
 

With range bonus you get on the Tengu you can have 40-50k range using heavy assault missiles. That's usually more than enough and you get more dps.

I always go with heavy assault. It's not like blasters that only go out to 10-15k.

Aitena
Posted - 2011.08.07 17:20:00 - [10]
 

The short range of HAMs also makes it such that you can't attempt certain plexes in nullsec, as beating them requires breaking their optimal.

Having said that... In missions where you don't need to break range and can sit still, HAMs are pretty fantastic.

Kara Books
Posted - 2011.08.08 15:00:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Aitena
The short range of HAMs also makes it such that you can't attempt certain plexes in nullsec, as beating them requires breaking their optimal.

Having said that... In missions where you don't need to break range and can sit still, HAMs are pretty fantastic.


Interesting, ty for that.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.08 15:25:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: stoicfaux on 08/08/2011 15:27:23

Even being out of range 5km can pretty much kibosh the HAM's DPS advantage over the HML.

Numbers:
An AB Tengu moves at 661m/s. If your target is 5km out of range, it takes (5,000m / 661m/s) = 7.6 seconds to get into range, not counting the time it takes to turn and accelerate.

In that 7.6 seconds, the 784 DPS tengu does (7.6 * 784) = 5,958.4 damage. The HAM Tengu does (916 - 784) = 132 more DPS than the HML Tengu. Thus:

5,984.4 + 784t = 916t
5958.4 = 132t
t = 45.1



It takes 45.1 seconds for the HAM Tengu's DPS to catch up to the HML Tengu's DPS.

And that was just for 5km...


edit: For every 1 second you spend getting into range, the HAM Tengu needs 5.9 seconds to catch up to the HML Tengu's DPS.


Diamaht Nevain
Gallente
Avatar Union
Posted - 2011.08.08 15:53:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Edited by: stoicfaux on 08/08/2011 15:27:23

Even being out of range 5km can pretty much kibosh the HAM's DPS advantage over the HML.

Numbers:
An AB Tengu moves at 661m/s. If your target is 5km out of range, it takes (5,000m / 661m/s) = 7.6 seconds to get into range, not counting the time it takes to turn and accelerate.

In that 7.6 seconds, the 784 DPS tengu does (7.6 * 784) = 5,958.4 damage. The HAM Tengu does (916 - 784) = 132 more DPS than the HML Tengu. Thus:

5,984.4 + 784t = 916t
5958.4 = 132t
t = 45.1



It takes 45.1 seconds for the HAM Tengu's DPS to catch up to the HML Tengu's DPS.

And that was just for 5km...


edit: For every 1 second you spend getting into range, the HAM Tengu needs 5.9 seconds to catch up to the HML Tengu's DPS.




During a mission the HAMs will have more than enough time to make up that difference. The tank is massive on a tengu so you pull the whole room. It will take a couple seconds for you to close range then you don't have to worry about that. You might have one or two targets that are orbiting at 50k so when you are ready for them you approach as you finish off everything else.

The only damage downtime you will have is the few seconds it takes to pull and close at the start of the fight. So in the end you will finish rooms a lot faster with HAMs.

You're letting the math take you away from what actually happens during a mission run.

Valor D'eglise
Gallente
Red Cross Of Gallente Federation
Posted - 2011.08.08 16:17:00 - [14]
 

I'd say fit according to mission.
A lot of clumped up close range ships go HAM, fewer single enemies far away go HML.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.08 16:42:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Diamaht Nevain

During a mission the HAMs will have more than enough time to make up that difference. The tank is massive on a tengu so you pull the whole room. It will take a couple seconds for you to close range then you don't have to worry about that. You might have one or two targets that are orbiting at 50k so when you are ready for them you approach as you finish off everything else.

The only damage downtime you will have is the few seconds it takes to pull and close at the start of the fight. So in the end you will finish rooms a lot faster with HAMs.

You're letting the math take you away from what actually happens during a mission run.


Best case, it takes a couple of seconds just to travel 1.3km.

How many missions allow you to pull entire room/pocket aggro? How many missions have waves that spawn significantly out of HAM distance? HML Tengus just burn directly to the next gate and orbit it until everything is dead, whereas the HAM Tengu have to worry about being pulled too far from the gate to kill those 40-50km+ orbiting rats.

HAM Tengu also needs to carry a TP which has a 10 second cycle time.

I would want to see mission completion times for a HAM Tengu. Even 10 seconds spent traveling into range translates into a nearly a minute of lost time when compared to HMLs.


Taron Hakard
Posted - 2011.08.08 16:49:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Taron Hakard on 08/08/2011 16:49:23
Hello,

Loadouts on Battleclinic are EFT warrior crafted jokes exept for a handful of fittings made by quality players. GL HF cherrypicking them if you're new. I'm only trying to save you further confusion.

Diamaht Nevain
Gallente
Avatar Union
Posted - 2011.08.08 20:26:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Diamaht Nevain

During a mission the HAMs will have more than enough time to make up that difference. The tank is massive on a tengu so you pull the whole room. It will take a couple seconds for you to close range then you don't have to worry about that. You might have one or two targets that are orbiting at 50k so when you are ready for them you approach as you finish off everything else.

The only damage downtime you will have is the few seconds it takes to pull and close at the start of the fight. So in the end you will finish rooms a lot faster with HAMs.

You're letting the math take you away from what actually happens during a mission run.


Best case, it takes a couple of seconds just to travel 1.3km.

How many missions allow you to pull entire room/pocket aggro? How many missions have waves that spawn significantly out of HAM distance? HML Tengus just burn directly to the next gate and orbit it until everything is dead, whereas the HAM Tengu have to worry about being pulled too far from the gate to kill those 40-50km+ orbiting rats.

HAM Tengu also needs to carry a TP which has a 10 second cycle time.

I would want to see mission completion times for a HAM Tengu. Even 10 seconds spent traveling into range translates into a nearly a minute of lost time when compared to HMLs.




Almost all of them allow you to pull the entire room; they are split into groups, just shoot at one npc from each group and they will all come. Find the 3 or 4 that will orbit you at 50k and approach then right off, kill everything that comes to you (and the entire room will come to you) as you make your way over (you only have to cover and extra 10km).

When you get used to this you will be able to start shooting after about 10 seconds and you will never have to stop.

For numbers lets look at it this way:
-It will take you 10-20 seconds usually to get into comfortable range when you first get into the room, but for this lets say it takes 30 seconds.
-Assume 750 dps with HAM and 600 dps with Heavy
-Lets say it takes 3mins to finish a room

3mins 30sec of constant shooting with Heavy : 126,000
3min of constant shooting with HAM : 135,000

If you manage your agro and keep your ship in the right position you won't have to worry about travel times. As you are finishing up the last few ships start heading towards the gate.

Doing it this way is a lot more active but it's also faster. Wormholes will be different since you will be heavily webbed at long distances so you will need the longer range.

BearJews
Posted - 2011.08.08 23:20:00 - [18]
 

I'm an HML tengu fan and am just wondering the consistency of the damage per volley. With HML tech II scourge fury, i'm hitting full damage everytime (i have 2xtII rigor, 1xtII flare) for any ship the size of a cruiser and above. I don't even change ammo most of the time (depending on the mission) to precission for frigates.

If i switch to hams will just putting on a TP be enough to get full damage from cruisers and above? Thanks

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.08 23:58:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: BearJews

If i switch to hams will just putting on a TP be enough to get full damage from cruisers and above? Thanks


You should be ok against cruisers using a Flare II and a TP. Missile damage spreadsheet.

However, you'll want to swap the Rigor rigs for missile range rigs.



 

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