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Ballistic Knight
Posted - 2011.08.06 13:02:00 - [1]
 

Does anyone know why we do not have faction battlecruisers? I would think they would definitely be an interesting addition to the line-up.

Revanean
Posted - 2011.08.06 13:42:00 - [2]
 

That would be pretty awesome, but right now CCP are busy manufacturing crampons and icepicks to mountaineer their way out of the hole they dug themselves to worry about faction BCs.

Navy Issue Harbinger, anyone? :D

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.06 17:04:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 06/08/2011 17:29:43
Edit: Just a few ideas I'm throwing out here. It's very difficult to make them powerful enough to be worth using over T3s, but not completely obsolete the command ships. If faction battlecruisers were ever introduced, I would recommend adding an extra high slot and hardpoint (with appropriate fittings) to the Nighthawk, Absolution, and Astarte. They're not very compelling as it is, and these would utterly obsolete them -- yet if they were any less powerful, you'd never want to choose them over a T3.

Wraith (Sansha Battlecruiser)
~400 million isk

7 high slots, 5x turrets
6 medium slots
4 low slots
3 rig slots, 350 calibration

Special Ability:
+100% bonus to medium energy turret damage
Battlecruiser Skill Bonus:
+5% bonus to medium laser turret damage per level
+7.5% bonus to medium laser turret tracking per level

Prerequisites: Caldari Cruiser 5, Amarr Cruiser 5, Battlecruisers 1

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.06 17:17:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 06/08/2011 17:38:11
Thantiel (Angel Battlecruiser)
~400 million isk

8 high slots, 7x turrets
5 medium slots
6 low slots
3 rig slots, 350 calibration

Special Ability:
+25% bonus to medium projectile turret rate of fire
Absurdly low mass, as is standard for all Angel ships
Battlecruiser Skill Bonus:
+5% bonus to medium projectile turret damage per level
+10% bonus to medium projectile turret falloff per level

Prerequisites: Minmatar Cruiser 5, Gallente Cruiser 5, Battlecruisers 1

Th0rG0d
Terminal Pharmaceuticals Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.06 18:42:00 - [5]
 

I think Tier 2 BCs need to be balanced first. They completely outclass everything below it, and are more versatile the most BSs.

I would like to see faction battlecruisers though. Maybe they should be what Tier 2 are now?

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2011.08.06 19:35:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Th0rG0d
I think Tier 2 BCs need to be balanced first. They completely outclass everything below it, and are more versatile the most BSs.

I would like to see faction battlecruisers though. Maybe they should be what Tier 2 are now?

Precisely.

I for one would love to fly current Bingers etc. should they be balanced and cost like 200 mil.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.06 20:50:00 - [7]
 

Not that I don't agree with you, but I'm not exactly comfortable with there being no competent T1 laserboats smaller than battleships.

The punisher, maller, and/or prophecy would need some pretty massive overhauls before I'd be willing to see the harbinger removed from entry level players.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.08.06 21:04:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
The punisher, maller, and/or prophecy would need some pretty massive overhauls before I'd be willing to see the harbinger removed from entry level players.


The same could be said about Caldari and the Drake.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.06 21:11:00 - [9]
 

Prior to the rocket buff, I would agree with you -- but the Kestrel and the Merlin are both very competent missile boats at the frigate level, and the assault missile caracal is well known for its anti-frigate prowess.

I wouldn't mind seeing the caracal being a little more nano-capable, though.

Th0rG0d
Terminal Pharmaceuticals Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.06 22:44:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
Not that I don't agree with you, but I'm not exactly comfortable with there being no competent T1 laserboats smaller than battleships.

The punisher, maller, and/or prophecy would need some pretty massive overhauls before I'd be willing to see the harbinger removed from entry level players.


I don't think the Harbinger, or any Tier 2 BCs should be balanced with isk. I think either the Tier 1 ships brought up a bit, or slightly lessen the performance of the Tier 2s. But, since the T2 BCs are all Tier 1 hulls, the faction BCs should be based on the Tier 2 hulls. Definately like to see a sup'ed up Ashimmu-like Harb or web bonused Myrm.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.06 23:18:00 - [11]
 

The problem with doing that is that it leaves the tech-1 cruisers literally in the dust. There would be no reason to ever fly them.

Th0rG0d
Terminal Pharmaceuticals Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.06 23:36:00 - [12]
 

The only reason now to fly cruisers is cost. Why choose the Ruppie over the Cane? Because it's cheaper. Why fly a Omen over a Harb? You don't now anyway. The Caracal is flown instead of a Drake pretty much only for one role, frig swatting. Vexor or Myrm, well, Myrm is all around better generally, though the Vexor is still a great hull, and cheaper.

If you lower the Tier 2 BC hulls in performance, that would even up the playing field just fine. But the faction hulls would have to be similar to their current performance, and with their corresponding bonuses. Probably ideally priced in the mid 300M- low 400M isk price range, but I must confess that market stuff is way out of my scope. I'm the guy who sells to buy orders, and buys sell orders ;)

Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2011.08.07 00:21:00 - [13]
 

One cause may be that the battlecruiser skill is non-racial. So they would have to redo the skills to make them in-line with other faction ships.

Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
Posted - 2011.08.07 02:00:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Th0rG0d
The only reason now to fly cruisers is cost. Why choose the Ruppie over the Cane? Because it's cheaper. Why fly a Omen over a Harb? You don't now anyway. The Caracal is flown instead of a Drake pretty much only for one role, frig swatting. Vexor or Myrm, well, Myrm is all around better generally, though the Vexor is still a great hull, and cheaper.

If you lower the Tier 2 BC hulls in performance, that would even up the playing field just fine. But the faction hulls would have to be similar to their current performance, and with their corresponding bonuses. Probably ideally priced in the mid 300M- low 400M isk price range, but I must confess that market stuff is way out of my scope. I'm the guy who sells to buy orders, and buys sell orders ;)


Posted that before, so I won't elaborate, but...
T1 Cruisers are not that cheaper than BCs...for similar fits require only a few less modules of similar cost. For spec fits, it's more likely you will use a meta 3/4 module for a cruiser than for a BC for fitting purposes.

After insurance the cost boils down to insurance cost and those 2-3 extra modules, while the performance gains you get out of BCs over cruisers is simply priceless.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.07 02:28:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Diomidis
Posted that before, so I won't elaborate, but...
T1 Cruisers are not that cheaper than BCs...for similar fits require only a few less modules of similar cost. For spec fits, it's more likely you will use a meta 3/4 module for a cruiser than for a BC for fitting purposes.


Quoted for truth. As often as not, T1 cruisers end up costing MORE than battlecruisers because of reliance on meta-4 modules for fitting considerations. The difference in their performance is staggering, and battlecruisers will often end up being more agile than their cruiser counterparts simply because they can add nanofibers in their extra slots.

Even more absurd, battlecruisers are also LESS skill intensive, because you can just train a single battlecruiser skill and qualify for 8 different ships. They're also much easier on fitting requirements, which makes things like advanced weapon upgrades and or launcher rigging unnecessary.

Akara Ito
Amarr
Kriegsmarinewerft
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.07 02:56:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Akara Ito on 07/08/2011 02:57:44
Originally by: Aamrr
Originally by: Diomidis
Posted that before, so I won't elaborate, but...
T1 Cruisers are not that cheaper than BCs...for similar fits require only a few less modules of similar cost. For spec fits, it's more likely you will use a meta 3/4 module for a cruiser than for a BC for fitting purposes.


Quoted for truth. As often as not, T1 cruisers end up costing MORE than battlecruisers because of reliance on meta-4 modules for fitting considerations. The difference in their performance is staggering, and battlecruisers will often end up being more agile than their cruiser counterparts simply because they can add nanofibers in their extra slots.

Even more absurd, battlecruisers are also LESS skill intensive, because you can just train a single battlecruiser skill and qualify for 8 different ships. They're also much easier on fitting requirements, which makes things like advanced weapon upgrades and or launcher rigging unnecessary.


The last part is simply not true, a really good Drake fit needs AWU 4, Electronics, Engineering 5 and several other skills like Shield Upgrades 4 or better 5 as well. Flying a decent Drake without Electronics and Weapon Upgrade both at V almost impossible.
The other BCs are pretty much the same, I'm currently training Shield Upgrades 5 to get a decent fit on my Harbinger working

Faction BCs in general would be nice, Imperial Navy Harb with a little more Cap/Shield/Armor/Hull/Grid/CPU and 1 more low slot or an increased dronebay for a total price of maybe 200 Million. Navy Factions BCs would still be in line with the Field Command ships as they lack the T2 Resists the dual damage bonus. 7 mids Drake would be a bit imbalanced tho.

Pirate Factions BCs would be way to overpowered tho, I dont think we need an Angel BC with the agility of a fast cruiser and 1k DPS

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.07 03:21:00 - [17]
 

You're crying because a drake needs electronics and engineering 5. Those are rank one skills. Shield upgrades 4 is required to use T2 extenders. There is literally no excuse for a drake pilot not to have it. It takes less time than either of the previous skills do.

Try fitting an omen some time and then we can talk about unreasonable powergrid and CPU demands. (And then compare to an autocannon Hurricane.)

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.08.07 06:30:00 - [18]
 

canes have much easier fitting than other bcs, i dont know why you people are talking about the drake

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.07 07:46:00 - [19]
 

Why the **** are people saying the Drake needs to be buffed when it is already the most flown BC in the game?

Exploited Engineer
Posted - 2011.08.07 11:18:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Akiba Penrose
One cause may be that the battlecruiser skill is non-racial. So they would have to redo the skills to make them in-line with other faction ships.


They could fix that fairly easily by making one of the BCs hull bonuses dependent on the racial cruiser skill. That way, you'd need both BC and the racial cruiser skill at a certain level to fly a BC of that faction effectively.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.08.07 12:29:00 - [21]
 

When/If tiers are aver done away with .. until then there is simply no "room" between tier2 BC and tier1 BS for a faction BC.
Originally by: Headerman
Why the **** are people saying the Drake needs to be buffed when it is already the most flown BC in the game?

Say What!?

Now add the little known fact ('lol') that Hurricanes are generally not used for PvE at all ......

Nomad Vherokic
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.07 12:41:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Exploited Engineer
Originally by: Akiba Penrose
One cause may be that the battlecruiser skill is non-racial. So they would have to redo the skills to make them in-line with other faction ships.


They could fix that fairly easily by making one of the BCs hull bonuses dependent on the racial cruiser skill. That way, you'd need both BC and the racial cruiser skill at a certain level to fly a BC of that faction effectively.


I vaguely remember a lot of shouting for this when we got BCs in the game with the Exodus (?can't remember exactly?) expansion. I strongly support this as all we have at the moment is a low cruiser pre-req to get in the ship and nothing else.

How about lowering the base agility of BCs by 25% and then adding a 5% bonus to agility per level of racial cruiser skill? This doesn't preclude a low-skilled player from getting in the ship, but rewards those who have spent time to get other skills maxed out.

Ray Parez
Posted - 2011.08.07 13:31:00 - [23]
 

It seems to me that we should put them at the level of CS, and before you complain about that, let's look at gurista and cartel ships.

Guristas pirates:
The worm is roughly equivalent to the ishkur In terms of power and functionality, however one doesn't require tech 2 training, in exchange for a much higher cost.

The gila is almost exactly the same, although it does put out a noticeably weaker shield tank than the Ishtar, which is famous for being able to passive shield tank lvl five missions.

The rattlesnake is equal with the dominix in my eyes, which breaks the general trend, however in my opinion it is the only one to do so.


Angel cartel:
The cranial is roughly equivalent to the combat interceptor for the minmatar, though obviously more used than the claw, in my experience.

The cynical is a vaga clone, with similar stats and play styles, if you are good at flying one, do almost exactly the same thing for the other and you should be golden.

The machariel is tied in pve with the carhur as far as I am concerned. Both clear missions extraordinarily fast, with the only real difference being that the vargur completes slightly slower, but also salvages as it runs, making up for lost isk.

As you can see, in every case, faction ships are almost perfectly matched up to a tech two ship of the same class, and faction battlecruisers should be no exception. I personally think that using the tier 2 hulls would look better, as a pirate is more likely to adapt the most powerful ships in each class, rather than trying to bring the weaker one up to their level, as happened with CS.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.07 13:32:00 - [24]
 

Battlecruisers have two bonuses already. I don't see why one of them couldn't be dependent on the prerequisite cruiser skill.

Drake
Caldari Cruiser: 5% kinetic damage per level
Battlecruiser: 5% shield resists per level

And so on.

Because Of Door
Posted - 2011.08.07 14:09:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Ray Parez
The gila is almost exactly the same, although it does put out a noticeably weaker shield tank than the Ishtar, which is famous for being able to passive shield tank lvl five missions.


Assuming perfect skills, the Gila is better against Em/Therm (Sansha/Bloods) damage due to higher starting resists and 1 more mid slot, and 1 more rig slot. Against Angels, again the Gila is better. Against Guristas/Serps, the Ishtar by far outclasses the Gila because of higher native resists against Kin/Therm, it's in this case you can easily tank the top complexes due to getting something like a ~2.9k DPS tank with Pithum-A type resist mods and T2 rigs.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2011.08.07 15:07:00 - [26]
 

No no faction drakes no tech II drakes no more ****ing drakes ffs.

Plenty of existing things in the game to fix, or balance (including the ****ing drake)

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.07 15:25:00 - [27]
 

You know, I recently had an idea to name my ships after fonts. Rifters are standard can't-go-wrong ships, so it'd be Times New Roman, the Minmatar supercarrier would be Helvetica...you get the idea.

I just wasn't sure what to name the Drake. Now I know. (Comic Sans)

Diesel47
Posted - 2011.08.07 22:51:00 - [28]
 

Faction ferox and brutixs plz.

Faction cane and drake are just too OP to imagine :/


Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.08.07 23:09:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Drykor on 07/08/2011 23:13:03
Originally by: Aamrr


Wraith (Sansha Battlecruiser)
~400 million isk

7 high slots, 5x turrets
6 medium slots
4 low slots
3 rig slots, 350 calibration

Special Ability:
+100% bonus to medium energy turret damage
Battlecruiser Skill Bonus:
+5% bonus to medium laser turret damage per level
+7.5% bonus to medium laser turret tracking per level

Prerequisites: Caldari Cruiser 5, Amarr Cruiser 5, Battlecruisers 1


Seems to me you didn't really think this through, this is the equivalent of 12.5 guns PLUS utility highs, awesome tracking and lots of room for damage mods AND an awesome tank. Not sure how this would ever be considered to not be overpowered.

This is often what's happening when players design new ships, they just make them something that is really awesome. Personally I don't think there is any room for another upgraded variant of a battlecruiser/hac.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.07 23:21:00 - [30]
 

I was quite aware when I designed it. The Tengu has 12 effective hardpoints, numerous subsystem bonuses, a far superior tank, and better signature radius and mobility.

This costs almost as much as a T3 cruiser. It needs to be competitive with it.


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