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blankseplocked (Real Currency) Skill Reset.
 
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Rengleif
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:45:00 - [1]
 

I realize this thread will get tons of backlash from parts of the community but I have an idea.

The idea is as such. I propose that a limited service be provided that will allow a player to reimburse all the skills points they have used over the years. The reason being for this idea is that I think a lot of players when they were new may have made poor skill choices (like myself). So I originally had quit the game because I felt useless in every field of the game. I was getting beat in missions, my skills were all over the place, I had no idea what I was doing. So I feel that starting over would probably suit me best, because I put time and effort into skills that are not useful for my role in the game.

A user is limited to x amount of skill resets permanently. (This could apply to all versions)

[Alternate version 1]
Allow the user to refund their skills points by amount. Every such and such dollar you spend is x amount of skill points you can refund. But make it users choice on which skills to drop (or don't. make it a roulette so to speak).

[Alternate version 2]
Allow the user to pay x amount of dollars to reimburse x amount of skills for their full value(Price variation based on skill. Could even be implemented in game. It fits into the sci-fi aspect).

Magnus Orin
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:48:00 - [2]
 

Eve rewards thinking things through and planning ahead. This would shatter that paradigm. It is also far out of the scope of the NEX and Aurum, as it gives clear gameplay advantage.

Rengleif
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:49:00 - [3]
 

Hence it being limited, but I get what you are saying.

HELLBOUNDMAN
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:57:00 - [4]
 

I would like to see some sort of neural remap device in game that you could pay isk to use.

The device would be a one time use, require you to have an open implant slot to attach it to, and would cost a decent amount of isk.

The item itself wouldn't be usable more than once every 1-3months, and you'd have to buy a new one each time.

Players would be required to have a certain rep with a FACTION in order to purchase one of these.
You would be required to pay a certain amount of LP and isk. The LP can be universal from any corp aligned with that faction, and can stack with each other. In other words, if it cost 200k sp, and you have 200k sp spread amongst several different corps, you'd be able to combine it to buy this item. The item would cost a reasonable amount of isk as well, which would help to create another isk dump in game. Then the item can either be used or sold on the market.

Sweet, simple, has penalty of price and removing an implant, and only usable every 1-3 months.

Rengleif
Posted - 2011.08.05 21:10:00 - [5]
 

Yes that does sound pretty good. That way it actually takes effort to be able to use it. But the idea was more geared towards people who have had bad starts. Like myself ha.

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.08.06 10:32:00 - [6]
 

I think players should be allowed to pay real money to have some of their SP deleted, if there are skills they don't want and they want to lighten up their clone. Then the money they paid should also be deleted.

This would help decrease the daft people footprint both in-game and outside.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.06 11:15:00 - [7]
 


No skill point resets for any currency, ever! If you want to subtract skill points you can go get podded without a clone a few times.


Oonishi Saya
Posted - 2011.08.06 11:24:00 - [8]
 

TL;DR Once? At a loss of SP? All the way or not at all? Maybe.

I've been very back and forth about this one. While I would appreciate a chance to 'undo' a couple of poor choices on one character or another, any kind of reset will end up favoring flavor-of-the-month builds and allow people to use the current attribute system to train optimally. That having been said, a one-time account reset (via plex or...perhaps the shiny gold dust they've dumped on everyone anyway ;) ...that would be a useful way of getting rid of it after it piles up) might not be a terrible thing...it would let people erase those messy early-on choices that are an eye-sore on the skill list now.

A certain other game's reset mechanic caught my eye and had me thinking, as well; if every reset has increasingly diminishing rewards it would kill the FotM issue. If every reset (starting at 0% on the first) removed a cumulative 10% of the TOTAL skill points being reset, it would balance it out nicely. The first time or two might not hurt too much, but after that you'd be losing millions, if not tens of millions of skill points for your 'bad choices'...quite a spanking indeed, for not thinking ahead. After four or five resets you'd literally be halving your character's effectiveness.

It would be easy enough to implement, whether single-character or account-wide. Remove all skills, run a simple routine to replace initial starter skills if those were necessary for some back-end reason, and dump the points into the skill pool to be spent. That would force everyone to buy those pesky skill books all over again, just another little bit of punishment for not having thought ahead...that could be billions of ISK flushed away, and ISK-sinks are always good.

So long as the skillpoints never moved characters (we don't want any kind of system where they can transfer a character to that account and somehow merge skillpoints, after all), and there's a significant loss of ISK, SP, and time (spent running around getting skillbooks and everything else), it would be less of an on-the-whim issue. I personally like the thought of my enemies losing twenty million skillpoints just because they thought about switching builds.

The cost isn't the issue; there's people out there with hundreds of billions of ISK, and more. Drop in the bucket for most. But en-masse, a billion ISK dumped for each person (and you know a large chunk of the population would do it once) certainly would add up. They could be 'mean' about it and charge as much as a monocle, just to **** everyone off a bit more, and it would still make them a boatload of money in the short-term and erase one hell of a pile of ISK (and possibly create an entire swarm of skill-less 'noobs' running around low/null trying to collect skillbooks all over again =P).

Alx Warlord
Posted - 2011.08.06 11:28:00 - [9]
 

Sorry Rengleif but this is not a good idea, this year the simple POSSIBILITY of CCP using this new feature AURUM to somewhat "sell" an in-game advantage made allot of players stop playing the game... And this made me realy sad... i lost contact with many friends...

My char itself have the fist 6 months skills messed up, but i don't complain about it it was my own choices that made it this way, I can't complain. Every one carry the weigh of its own past...

About deleting SPs... wtf!? someday you may use them! they worth allot! if you don't want them, just leave them there and plan your future training! If you want to speed it up use some implants! if you are concerned about your clone, don't be, clones prices only skyrocket after 50 millions SP, and this only concern who have many years of game-play and can make this amount of isk in a few hours... Although if you have more then 50 millions SP I recommend you opening a new topic saying: "CCP please lower the end-game clone prices because you are killing my game-play!!!"

The top SP player on eveboard http://eveboard.com/pilot/Dr_Caymus it probably uses clone grade Phi http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cloning .

Although the Idea of buying remap tokens using LP is not a bad idea at all.... it would give those LP points a new reason to be, and it would also end the non-sense that: "if there are the technology to do remaps Why can't I buy it ?"

Spr09
Posted - 2011.08.06 11:52:00 - [10]
 

ugh, once people will see this they'll want to be able to buy sp too. personally i think this is gonna open a can of worms you can't close up again.

Oonishi Saya
Posted - 2011.08.06 12:08:00 - [11]
 

Well 'want to buy' and 'be able to buy' is two entirely different things. Most games allow some kind of reset. EVE has a bit more mature/serious of a feel to it, and a lot of people say that you should live with your choices. But we were all young and stupid at one point and didn't know any better; points that should have gone somewhere else, got put into something that hasn't gotten touched in months...maybe years. People will say that no skill point is wasted and that you'll eventually use it, but...no, some of them you just might not ever look back at.

I'm sure players of every other game want to be able to buy levels, but they say 'no', just like EVE should and hopefully WILL do. Just because you offer a reset (singular or otherwise) doesn't mean that they have to sell skillpoints as well. Those are two entirely separate things, just like selling a specialization reset in another game isn't the same as selling fifty levels. Trying to lump those two things together is similar to saying 'letting us sell characters for ISK' is the same as 'letting us sell ISK for real money'. One transfer of resources doesn't equal another; one thing can be permitted while another can be outright refused.

Veterans will surely say that you should live with your choices just like they have for the last half a decade, but I'm willing to bet a lot of those veterans would be some of the first to use the service if it was offered. They've just put up with the system as it is for so long that they're used to staring at those personally-worthless skills. You can get used to riding a bike after your car breaks down too, but if someone offered to fix it for you for a reasonable price [even if it goes a bit slower afterwards from used parts], wouldn't you take them up on the offer if you could afford it?

Rengleif
Posted - 2011.08.06 16:32:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Oonishi Saya
Well 'want to buy' and 'be able to buy' is two entirely different things. Most games allow some kind of reset. EVE has a bit more mature/serious of a feel to it, and a lot of people say that you should live with your choices. But we were all young and stupid at one point and didn't know any better; points that should have gone somewhere else, got put into something that hasn't gotten touched in months...maybe years. People will say that no skill point is wasted and that you'll eventually use it, but...no, some of them you just might not ever look back at.

I'm sure players of every other game want to be able to buy levels, but they say 'no', just like EVE should and hopefully WILL do. Just because you offer a reset (singular or otherwise) doesn't mean that they have to sell skillpoints as well. Those are two entirely separate things, just like selling a specialization reset in another game isn't the same as selling fifty levels. Trying to lump those two things together is similar to saying 'letting us sell characters for ISK' is the same as 'letting us sell ISK for real money'. One transfer of resources doesn't equal another; one thing can be permitted while another can be outright refused.

Veterans will surely say that you should live with your choices just like they have for the last half a decade, but I'm willing to bet a lot of those veterans would be some of the first to use the service if it was offered. They've just put up with the system as it is for so long that they're used to staring at those personally-worthless skills. You can get used to riding a bike after your car breaks down too, but if someone offered to fix it for you for a reasonable price [even if it goes a bit slower afterwards from used parts], wouldn't you take them up on the offer if you could afford it?



Well said.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.06 17:42:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 06/08/2011 17:42:51
Originally by: Oonishi Saya
Veterans will surely say that you should live with your choices just like they have for the last half a decade, but I'm willing to bet a lot of those veterans would be some of the first to use the service if it was offered.
Of course they would, because it would be so insanely beneficial to them — the more beneficial the older they are. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. In fact, it rather suggests the exact opposite: it leaves new players in the lurch and massively boosts older ones, which is a pretty awful idea.

If everyone were given the choice to, once or on a per purchase basis, kill everyone in the system, wouldn't everyone use that service? Wouldn't that still be a horribly bad service to provide?

Yes, everyone didn't know better when they were young, but those mistakes were so tiny and insignificant that there's very little to gain from fixing them. They're just the beauty warts that makes the whole package that more charming. What an SP remap would actually do is make older players hyper-focus their characters and trim a crapton of fat — far more than what those new players that this is supposed to help. At the same time, it would only serve to wipe out variety and choice — two things that make this game special.

Rengleif
Posted - 2011.08.07 00:16:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 06/08/2011 17:42:51
Originally by: Oonishi Saya
Veterans will surely say that you should live with your choices just like they have for the last half a decade, but I'm willing to bet a lot of those veterans would be some of the first to use the service if it was offered.
Of course they would, because it would be so insanely beneficial to them — the more beneficial the older they are. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. In fact, it rather suggests the exact opposite: it leaves new players in the lurch and massively boosts older ones, which is a pretty awful idea.

If everyone were given the choice to, once or on a per purchase basis, kill everyone in the system, wouldn't everyone use that service? Wouldn't that still be a horribly bad service to provide?

Yes, everyone didn't know better when they were young, but those mistakes were so tiny and insignificant that there's very little to gain from fixing them. They're just the beauty warts that makes the whole package that more charming. What an SP remap would actually do is make older players hyper-focus their characters and trim a crapton of fat — far more than what those new players that this is supposed to help. At the same time, it would only serve to wipe out variety and choice — two things that make this game special.


This is why i have several options to chose from, as far as what could be implemented. The lesser choices will only affect a few skills or a certain amount of sp to prevent said long term players from getting even stronger. It would be like having slight plastic surgery to fix what you might consider a flaw on your face.

Oonishi Saya
Posted - 2011.08.07 01:20:00 - [15]
 

Anyone with enough skillpoints to 'wipe out a system', as you put it, can already do that. Or at the very least cause quite a bit of trouble without NEEDING the remap. The only difference would be that after the remap they would be slightly better at what they were already focusing on. For that matter, after hyper-focusing on any one particular thing they may have lost so much versatility that they've only hurt themselves. If someone loses four months of industry training and decides to spend those points on finally getting fighter bombers to 5, they haven't tipped the scales and 'ruined' it for anyone...they've simply carved off something that they don't want to ever look at again.

In the case of high skillpoint characters it may allow them to heavily focus on a single field to the point of being 'perfect' at it...but that honestly doesn't matter, they COULD have done that anyway; the skillpoints are theirs, after all. YOU could have done the same thing. They've already invested the time and effort...they're not buying more, they're just getting the best out of the time that they've already invested. And as far as they know, an inevitable nerf may just roll around and ruin their efforts at perfecting a single thing. So long as there's some loss in the process, they'll lose out every time their impatience forces them to respec.

The problem is that early on, you may not have had any idea what you wanted to be. For some people that indecisiveness may have spanned quite a bit longer than it should have (*coughs and eyes one alt's skill list*). I don't think that I would ever be up for unlimited respecing; even once would be all that was necessary. If you had to do it more than once, you're simply trying to cheat the system. Being able to trim away the fat is exactly the goal though; making the most of the time and effort that you've invested.

Rengleif
Posted - 2011.08.07 01:43:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Rengleif on 07/08/2011 01:43:31
Originally by: Oonishi Saya
Anyone with enough skillpoints to 'wipe out a system', as you put it, can already do that. Or at the very least cause quite a bit of trouble without NEEDING the remap. The only difference would be that after the remap they would be slightly better at what they were already focusing on. For that matter, after hyper-focusing on any one particular thing they may have lost so much versatility that they've only hurt themselves. If someone loses four months of industry training and decides to spend those points on finally getting fighter bombers to 5, they haven't tipped the scales and 'ruined' it for anyone...they've simply carved off something that they don't want to ever look at again.

In the case of high skillpoint characters it may allow them to heavily focus on a single field to the point of being 'perfect' at it...but that honestly doesn't matter, they COULD have done that anyway; the skillpoints are theirs, after all. YOU could have done the same thing. They've already invested the time and effort...they're not buying more, they're just getting the best out of the time that they've already invested. And as far as they know, an inevitable nerf may just roll around and ruin their efforts at perfecting a single thing. So long as there's some loss in the process, they'll lose out every time their impatience forces them to respec.

The problem is that early on, you may not have had any idea what you wanted to be. For some people that indecisiveness may have spanned quite a bit longer than it should have (*coughs and eyes one alt's skill list*). I don't think that I would ever be up for unlimited respecing; even once would be all that was necessary. If you had to do it more than once, you're simply trying to cheat the system. Being able to trim away the fat is exactly the goal though; making the most of the time and effort that you've invested.


This is absolutely correct. It's not really gonna make anyone over powered that isn't already bad ass. It will refine that which is already there. But as such, if enough people can agree and give their opinions or counters in this argument, we could possible get this to happen.

Oonishi Saya
Posted - 2011.08.07 02:04:00 - [17]
 

As unfortunate as it is, the chances of them adding in any kind of respec system anytime too soon is highly unlikely. They have far too much on their plate as it is, and too few busy little bees to get everything working the way that it should be. Or at the very least, too few of those bees are devoted to things that we'd hope that they would be. As it's proven time and time again, our voices are drowned out by their own views of how they want things. All that we can hope is that one of them peeks in on our discussions and makes a note of how it looks from our points of view.

However, if EVE survives long enough, it would be nice to see something like this pop up. The more we discuss that sort of thing, the more ideas and variations of what 'might work' can get aired. Any of those ideas may pique a designer's interest and prompt them into getting serious about it.

HELLBOUNDMAN
Posted - 2011.08.07 03:09:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Yes, everyone didn't know better when they were young, but those mistakes were so tiny and insignificant that there's very little to gain from fixing them.


I don't really know how many skill points it makes up for me but personally I would like to get rid of all the turret skills that I trained before I realized that I would rather use missiles.
I also don't use a hulk, so I'd get rid of the skills I have towards individual ore reprocessing.
POSSIBLY even drop my gallente ships skills.. The only good purpose the skills have for me is getting me into a rattlesnake. (so I might keep them for that)

I don't think that's an insignificant amount of skill points.

Apart from that, this isn't needed because of the misfortunes of the players, or the inexperience of the players.
This should be given to the players because CCP didn't impliment anything into the game to give the players a bit of experience with the different factions.

That being said, to avoid this happening from now on, eve needs to take the 2 free weeks of eve and put those players into a small, controlled area where they give them experience with different ship types, different ammo and turret types, as well as different play styles to include missions, mining, pvp, maybe even incursions.

During these 2 weeks the players are given the skills for the different things they're training them fore, and then the skills are taken once they finish that training.

At the end of the 2 weeks the players is directed out of that system or systems and dumped into rookie systems.
Once they're removed from the training grounds then they are asked to go through a list of ships that they liked, and which type of gaming they preferred and so on.. This will help to decide which faction they start in and what there starting skills are.

Now, players that are just starting a second account or alt character can just hit the jump gate that exits them from the training grounds and selects their race and so on, then boom, they're in the main game.

The problem in eve isn't the learning curve, it's the fact that players aren't given proper training before being forced into the world of eve to fend for themselves.

There would be a lot less problem with noob players being so inexperienced if they were given this training.

Now, they could even let experienced players come into the pvp room of the server in order to fight these noob players to help train them in pvp.

Both the noob players and the assisting experienced players will have free ships, ammo, and modules while in this system.

To keep experienced players from just thriving in this area to enjoy pvp for free, they're only allowed into the system for one week out of every month.

Rengleif
Posted - 2011.08.07 16:07:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: HELLBOUNDMAN
Originally by: Tippia
Yes, everyone didn't know better when they were young, but those mistakes were so tiny and insignificant that there's very little to gain from fixing them.


I don't really know how many skill points it makes up for me but personally I would like to get rid of all the turret skills that I trained before I realized that I would rather use missiles.
I also don't use a hulk, so I'd get rid of the skills I have towards individual ore reprocessing.
POSSIBLY even drop my gallente ships skills.. The only good purpose the skills have for me is getting me into a rattlesnake. (so I might keep them for that)

I don't think that's an insignificant amount of skill points.

Apart from that, this isn't needed because of the misfortunes of the players, or the inexperience of the players.
This should be given to the players because CCP didn't impliment anything into the game to give the players a bit of experience with the different factions.

That being said, to avoid this happening from now on, eve needs to take the 2 free weeks of eve and put those players into a small, controlled area where they give them experience with different ship types, different ammo and turret types, as well as different play styles to include missions, mining, pvp, maybe even incursions.

During these 2 weeks the players are given the skills for the different things they're training them fore, and then the skills are taken once they finish that training.

At the end of the 2 weeks the players is directed out of that system or systems and dumped into rookie systems.
Once they're removed from the training grounds then they are asked to go through a list of ships that they liked, and which type of gaming they preferred and so on.. This will help to decide which faction they start in and what there starting skills are.

Now, players that are just starting a second account or alt character can just hit the jump gate that exits them from the training grounds and selects their race and so on, then boom, they're in the main game.

The problem in eve isn't the learning curve, it's the fact that players aren't given proper training before being forced into the world of eve to fend for themselves.

There would be a lot less problem with noob players being so inexperienced if they were given this training.

Now, they could even let experienced players come into the pvp room of the server in order to fight these noob players to help train them in pvp.

Both the noob players and the assisting experienced players will have free ships, ammo, and modules while in this system.

To keep experienced players from just thriving in this area to enjoy pvp for free, they're only allowed into the system for one week out of every month.


Glad you support my idea. I like your concept about new player training as well. Make a thread for it so we can get that out there as well.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.07 17:22:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: HELLBOUNDMAN
I don't think that's an insignificant amount of skill points.
…but that's the problem: if it's not an insignificant amount of SP, then it's too much to allow to be re-purposed since that would give older players a huge boost compared to new ones; if it is an insignificant amount then… well… it's insignificant. Either way, it's not needed or just plain old bad.

The only way to make it even remotely work would be to tie it to character age if you really screw up early on — you have until your 2 month birthday to take advantage of it, and then it's gone forever. But even then, the question is why it would be needed: some of those skills will still be useful, and you haven't lost all that much anyway.

HELLBOUNDMAN
Posted - 2011.08.07 17:32:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HELLBOUNDMAN
I don't think that's an insignificant amount of skill points.
…but that's the problem: if it's not an insignificant amount of SP, then it's too much to allow to be re-purposed since that would give older players a huge boost compared to new ones; if it is an insignificant amount then… well… it's insignificant. Either way, it's not needed or just plain old bad.

The only way to make it even remotely work would be to tie it to character age if you really screw up early on — you have until your 2 month birthday to take advantage of it, and then it's gone forever. But even then, the question is why it would be needed: some of those skills will still be useful, and you haven't lost all that much anyway.


Like with what I said, it's not my fault that CCP didn't give me any type of training on modules, ammo, ships, turrets....NOTHING...

The only reason I have waisted SP is because CCP didn't train me properly.

It's also part of the reason why some players quit. They start and they suck with turrets, or they don't like turrets, but they don't realize how many options they have, so they quit.

To keep things fair, you can only put the points into skills that you currently have. If you don't have the skill injected when you remap, well, you don't get to move the sp into that slot.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.07 18:00:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: HELLBOUNDMAN
Like with what I said, it's not my fault that CCP didn't give me any type of training on modules, ammo, ships, turrets....NOTHING...

The only reason I have waisted SP is because CCP didn't train me properly.
…and because you didn't do the research. CCP didn't force you to pick the SP you chose to train — you did. The information was and still is out there, and constantly changes to match the prevailing ideas about how to best get things done.

Your right in a sense, but not in that one: you weren't trained properly, but what you needed to learn had nothing to do with modules and ship — it had to do with research, planning, choices, and consequences.

PaulTheConvoluted
Posted - 2011.08.07 20:07:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Tippia
it had to do with research, planning, choices, and consequences.
Problem is, when you're new to the game, you don't know that. By the time you do know, you've (possibly) wasted a lot of SP on things you're never going to use :)

YOU should have done this...
YOU should have done that...

Ok, and just how was I supposed to know that? I think that is the point HELLBOUNDMAN is trying to make.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2011.08.07 20:29:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: ShahFluffers on 07/08/2011 20:31:28
Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted
Originally by: Tippia
it had to do with research, planning, choices, and consequences.
Problem is, when you're new to the game, you don't know that. By the time you do know, you've (possibly) wasted a lot of SP on things you're never going to use :)

YOU should have done this...
YOU should have done that...

Ok, and just how was I supposed to know that? I think that is the point HELLBOUNDMAN is trying to make.


Perhaps when one doesn't know or isn't sure about something they should take a moment to type into Google "eve online > [insert topic here]" and browse through things (applies in RL too!).

Also, personal story:

When I was a nubbin I trained to fly a Retriever. I figured that I could make some ISK on the side when I got tied of running missions... until I realized that missions were not only more lucrative but that mining was BORING.

Today, I have refocused my training to almost pure combat. However, I still have those mining skills on my sheet. Instead of letting them "go to waste" I keep a tanky Retriever on hand to act as bait. It works.

There is no such thing as a "wasted skillpoint" unless you actually let it go to waste.

Nezumiiro Noneko
Posted - 2011.08.08 01:33:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted
Originally by: Tippia
it had to do with research, planning, choices, and consequences.
Problem is, when you're new to the game, you don't know that. By the time you do know, you've (possibly) wasted a lot of SP on things you're never going to use :)

YOU should have done this...
YOU should have done that...

Ok, and just how was I supposed to know that? I think that is the point HELLBOUNDMAN is trying to make.



well since these whiners always find a way to the forums....all the info is there for them. go for the glowing elephant in the room. Hate your hybrids, that was a self inflicted wound avoided by 10 minutes in these eve-o forums alone. that they suck...literally 4 threads a week easy about them in many thread sections. Decided you would make them work in spite of that...thats on the player. there myself with a t2 hybrid rokh. Choice was made to press on...choice I will live with as I moved onto a minny x-train. Least I got fleet rokhs to fly if maels and pests not on market. Not a grear bs...but workable (looks nice as well for when I get tired of looking at rusty ships lol)


Also a new player will at some point google "eve fit for xyz" where xyz is a ship. failheap, battleclinic, etc...rare is a post wihtout a harsh critique of a ship or weapon. A harsh yet legit critique. Read and learn from these critiques.

The well I wasted time learning argument....jsut doesn't fly in this game. EVE by its nature requires lots of extra "study" time. You jsut don't know how to fit ships in this game. Even after years...the bitter vets still look up fits and go hmmmm, never seen that, lets giver her a go once in a while.

There is also a free and easy to use tool called eft. Not sure if that skill level train is worth it....plug some numbers in the damn thing and go meh...I'd rather put that days of training elsewhere. Or go....damn, I like what this train does for me and train it. I did this day 2...still do it close to 2.5 years later on oldest char. Some skills...I jsut won't 5 for now or even learn at all. The rewards not there. Best way to avoid a time sink you will regret...don't train the damn thing. EFT is your friend in this battle of the training times.

Rengleif
Posted - 2011.08.08 03:48:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Nezumiiro Noneko
Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted
Originally by: Tippia
it had to do with research, planning, choices, and consequences.
Problem is, when you're new to the game, you don't know that. By the time you do know, you've (possibly) wasted a lot of SP on things you're never going to use :)

YOU should have done this...
YOU should have done that...

Ok, and just how was I supposed to know that? I think that is the point HELLBOUNDMAN is trying to make.



well since these whiners always find a way to the forums....all the info is there for them. go for the glowing elephant in the room. Hate your hybrids, that was a self inflicted wound avoided by 10 minutes in these eve-o forums alone. that they suck...literally 4 threads a week easy about them in many thread sections. Decided you would make them work in spite of that...thats on the player. there myself with a t2 hybrid rokh. Choice was made to press on...choice I will live with as I moved onto a minny x-train. Least I got fleet rokhs to fly if maels and pests not on market. Not a grear bs...but workable (looks nice as well for when I get tired of looking at rusty ships lol)


Also a new player will at some point google "eve fit for xyz" where xyz is a ship. failheap, battleclinic, etc...rare is a post wihtout a harsh critique of a ship or weapon. A harsh yet legit critique. Read and learn from these critiques.

The well I wasted time learning argument....jsut doesn't fly in this game. EVE by its nature requires lots of extra "study" time. You jsut don't know how to fit ships in this game. Even after years...the bitter vets still look up fits and go hmmmm, never seen that, lets giver her a go once in a while.

There is also a free and easy to use tool called eft. Not sure if that skill level train is worth it....plug some numbers in the damn thing and go meh...I'd rather put that days of training elsewhere. Or go....damn, I like what this train does for me and train it. I did this day 2...still do it close to 2.5 years later on oldest char. Some skills...I jsut won't 5 for now or even learn at all. The rewards not there. Best way to avoid a time sink you will regret...don't train the damn thing. EFT is your friend in this battle of the training times.


My alternate examples make this much less game changing but still helpful to new players. So I will agree with you on most of your points but this idea is still workable and useful.

HELLBOUNDMAN
Posted - 2011.08.08 03:56:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Nezumiiro Noneko
Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted
Originally by: Tippia
it had to do with research, planning, choices, and consequences.
Problem is, when you're new to the game, you don't know that. By the time you do know, you've (possibly) wasted a lot of SP on things you're never going to use :)

YOU should have done this...
YOU should have done that...

Ok, and just how was I supposed to know that? I think that is the point HELLBOUNDMAN is trying to make.



well since these whiners always find a way to the forums....all the info is there for them. go for the glowing elephant in the room. Hate your hybrids, that was a self inflicted wound avoided by 10 minutes in these eve-o forums alone. that they suck...literally 4 threads a week easy about them in many thread sections. Decided you would make them work in spite of that...thats on the player. there myself with a t2 hybrid rokh. Choice was made to press on...choice I will live with as I moved onto a minny x-train. Least I got fleet rokhs to fly if maels and pests not on market. Not a grear bs...but workable (looks nice as well for when I get tired of looking at rusty ships lol)


Also a new player will at some point google "eve fit for xyz" where xyz is a ship. failheap, battleclinic, etc...rare is a post wihtout a harsh critique of a ship or weapon. A harsh yet legit critique. Read and learn from these critiques.

The well I wasted time learning argument....jsut doesn't fly in this game. EVE by its nature requires lots of extra "study" time. You jsut don't know how to fit ships in this game. Even after years...the bitter vets still look up fits and go hmmmm, never seen that, lets giver her a go once in a while.

There is also a free and easy to use tool called eft. Not sure if that skill level train is worth it....plug some numbers in the damn thing and go meh...I'd rather put that days of training elsewhere. Or go....damn, I like what this train does for me and train it. I did this day 2...still do it close to 2.5 years later on oldest char. Some skills...I jsut won't 5 for now or even learn at all. The rewards not there. Best way to avoid a time sink you will regret...don't train the damn thing. EFT is your friend in this battle of the training times.


Myself and many other came to eve to play a game. If I wanted to do a bunch of research I would get a second job instead.
Besides that, you also have to know what the hell you want to look at in order to research it.

When I started eve I had no Idea that i could cross train skills, let alone did I know I preferred missiles.

Quote:
There is no such thing as a "wasted skillpoint" unless you actually let it go to waste.


I beg to differ, I have skills in turrets that are not only not good enough to be effective, but also completely unused and all my skills are in missiles.

I also have no will to train anything turret related. So I'd consider my none missile related gunnery skills to be waister.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.08 04:11:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 08/08/2011 04:14:12
Originally by: Oonishi Saya
Well 'want to buy' and 'be able to buy' is two entirely different things. Most games allow some kind of reset. EVE has a bit more mature/serious of a feel to it, and a lot of people say that you should live with your choices. But we were all young and stupid at one point and didn't know any better; points that should have gone somewhere else, got put into something that hasn't gotten touched in months...maybe years. People will say that no skill point is wasted and that you'll eventually use it, but...no, some of them you just might not ever look back at.

I'm sure players of every other game want to be able to buy levels, but they say 'no', just like EVE should and hopefully WILL do. Just because you offer a reset (singular or otherwise) doesn't mean that they have to sell skillpoints as well. Those are two entirely separate things, just like selling a specialization reset in another game isn't the same as selling fifty levels. Trying to lump those two things together is similar to saying 'letting us sell characters for ISK' is the same as 'letting us sell ISK for real money'. One transfer of resources doesn't equal another; one thing can be permitted while another can be outright refused.

Veterans will surely say that you should live with your choices just like they have for the last half a decade, but I'm willing to bet a lot of those veterans would be some of the first to use the service if it was offered. They've just put up with the system as it is for so long that they're used to staring at those personally-worthless skills. You can get used to riding a bike after your car breaks down too, but if someone offered to fix it for you for a reasonable price [even if it goes a bit slower afterwards from used parts], wouldn't you take them up on the offer if you could afford it?


this must never happen in eve. new players do what? ...make a mistake in training that last a few hours.. live with it. this change would allow eploitive actions that would ruin the game.




Rengleif
Posted - 2011.08.08 04:26:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Rengleif on 08/08/2011 22:06:11
Originally by: Barbara Nichole
Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 08/08/2011 04:14:12
Originally by: Oonishi Saya
Well 'want to buy' and 'be able to buy' is two entirely different things. Most games allow some kind of reset. EVE has a bit more mature/serious of a feel to it, and a lot of people say that you should live with your choices. But we were all young and stupid at one point and didn't know any better; points that should have gone somewhere else, got put into something that hasn't gotten touched in months...maybe years. People will say that no skill point is wasted and that you'll eventually use it, but...no, some of them you just might not ever look back at.

I'm sure players of every other game want to be able to buy levels, but they say 'no', just like EVE should and hopefully WILL do. Just because you offer a reset (singular or otherwise) doesn't mean that they have to sell skillpoints as well. Those are two entirely separate things, just like selling a specialization reset in another game isn't the same as selling fifty levels. Trying to lump those two things together is similar to saying 'letting us sell characters for ISK' is the same as 'letting us sell ISK for real money'. One transfer of resources doesn't equal another; one thing can be permitted while another can be outright refused.

Veterans will surely say that you should live with your choices just like they have for the last half a decade, but I'm willing to bet a lot of those veterans would be some of the first to use the service if it was offered. They've just put up with the system as it is for so long that they're used to staring at those personally-worthless skills. You can get used to riding a bike after your car breaks down too, but if someone offered to fix it for you for a reasonable price [even if it goes a bit slower afterwards from used parts], wouldn't you take them up on the offer if you could afford it?


this must never happen in eve. new players do what? ...make a mistake in training that last a few hours.. live with it. this change would allow exploitive actions that would ruin the game.





Alright, I have been very proper in listening to the critiquing of my idea, but those of you against seem to think that this will be unbalancing, when the fact is that I want this to be limited to the point where it will NOT unbalance the game and give anyone an advantage. If fore-mentioned people read my alternates then they would understand that I am asking for a modification and not necessarily a game destroying change. If you all feel that a full refund is out of the question then I must agree with you. So then that brings us to my alternatives. My alternatives are NOT to be ruled out as they are all limited in their abilities. So before destroying the idea completely, look at it and salvage what could be done with it.

Limits are put in place to keep this from destroying what the game is about, and giving a little more opportunity to line up your skills better.

This CAN be done. It isn't impossible. Remember, attribute remapping wasn't always there. And it has reasons for its limits as well.

Too all the supporters thank you for your ideas and arguments.


 

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