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Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:17:00 - [1]
 

I think everyone agrees that supercaps are way overpowered, but I'd go further and say that they shouldn't be introduced in the first place. We have dreads to kill large stationary objects, we have carriers as capital drone boats, we have titans as superior logistic ships and good anti-cap ships, but supercaps are clearly standing out. They are immune to e-war, they have ****loads of HP and they are actually good both against sub-cap and cap ships. So, you just need to field craploads of supercaps and that's it. That's why we are witnessing the current situation in 0.0 when whoever has the supercap blob auto-wins as the only thing that can stop supercaps is - just more supercaps.

JC Ferguson
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:19:00 - [2]
 

No, CCP made a mistake by allowing bots to proliferate virtually unchecked.

Supercaps aren't unbalanced. Fleets with dozens/hundreds of supercaps are unbalanced.

Warzon3
Perkone
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:23:00 - [3]
 

CCP thinks it is a mistake (although not commenting on how big of a mistake they think it is)

from the recent dev blog: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=944

Quote:
Doing something just "because it would be cool/neat/awesome" is always a bad idea and will come back to bite you later

See: Jump bridges, cyno jammers, Sov 4, AoE doomsdays, titans in general, supercarrier boost... Note that we should still obviously strive to make everything cool/neat/awesome, but when we start off with an awesome idea rather than an actual problem we want to fix or a feature that has a clear, functional and necessary goal, it generally requires painful fixes further down the road


Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:26:00 - [4]
 

super caps were all fine and dandy until they became common.

The thing is that super caps replaced the role of capital ships in EVE, instead of finding their own niche to fill. They completely outclassed normal caps, and there is really nothing preventing an alliance from favoring super caps over normal caps, aside from cost.

If CCP introduced a mechanism to limit the number of super caps which can be fielded (or perhaps owned) by an alliance, then I think that super caps would become the strategic asset that CCP wanted them to be in the first place.

andeira
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:44:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Taedrin
super caps were all fine and dandy until they became common.

The thing is that super caps replaced the role of capital ships in EVE, instead of finding their own niche to fill. They completely outclassed normal caps, and there is really nothing preventing an alliance from favoring super caps over normal caps, aside from cost.

If CCP introduced a mechanism to limit the number of super caps which can be fielded (or perhaps owned) by an alliance, then I think that super caps would become the strategic asset that CCP wanted them to be in the first place.


the problem isn't that they are common but that they are so powerfull cause they can do a dreads job with the versatility of a carrier and the EHP of titan. They were in need of a boost I agree but they have been kinda boosted over the top.

Looking back the changes to super carriers that sparked that super mega rage (only 10 drones but with fighter bombers and being able to dock them) would have turned out way better then how they are today.

You can argue that then even more people would have them then but at least they would not out damage a close range fitted dread (thus still keeping the role of a dread as main dps in a cap fleet) but instead of that they would have better damage at a further range.

MasterEnt
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:45:00 - [6]
 

THIS

Originally by: JC Ferguson
No, CCP made a mistake by allowing bots to proliferate virtually unchecked.
Supercaps aren't unbalanced. Fleets with dozens/hundreds of supercaps are unbalanced.


Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:49:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: MasterEnt
THIS

Originally by: JC Ferguson
No, CCP made a mistake by allowing bots to proliferate virtually unchecked.
Supercaps aren't unbalanced. Fleets with dozens/hundreds of supercaps are unbalanced.




Yes, and this one too. We now have like 60% of 0.0 controlled by bot masters.

Ame Sonoda
Caldari
Requiem of the Sinner
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:53:00 - [8]
 

the mistake they made was not making them require some new materials to build and then throttling how much entered the game. This would create a new resource for alliances to fight over.

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.08.05 21:32:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Estephania
I think everyone agrees that supercaps are way overpowered, but I'd go further and say that they shouldn't be introduced in the first place. We have dreads to kill large stationary objects, we have carriers as capital drone boats, we have titans as superior logistic ships and good anti-cap ships, but supercaps are clearly standing out. They are immune to e-war, they have ****loads of HP and they are actually good both against sub-cap and cap ships. So, you just need to field craploads of supercaps and that's it. That's why we are witnessing the current situation in 0.0 when whoever has the supercap blob auto-wins as the only thing that can stop supercaps is - just more supercaps.


You are an idiot, they do squat against sub caps, its titans that **** sub caps.

Pro tip, if somebody drops a super cloud on you, laugh and warp away, Fighter Bomber dps is negligible against sub caps.

Ur235
Mind Games.
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.08.05 21:55:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Ur235 on 05/08/2011 22:09:05

Of course they made a mistake if you have more supercaps than anyone else you can take whatever space you want when you want. If you deploy 40 super carriers and your enemy can only deploy 10 then you win that space pretty much all you gotta do is throw a couple of hundred BS's at a cyno jammer and then you can laugh at them not having enough of there own supercaps. Sure you could say a smart subcap fleet could nullify a supercap fleet but we all know Eve in its current state does not allow for smarter tactics than your enemy to be successfull because of the huge amount of lag involved in 0.0 warfare.

And ofc when a huge supercap fleet fight isnt going as planned they can always log off and wait for there 15 min timer is up because lets face it theres no way any fleet is going to take down all current enemy supercapitals on the grid within 15 minuites. I wreckon if your gonna loose your supercap fleet you must see it through to the end and save as many as you can when you can not just just logoffski and minimize your losses because that is totally stupid and something that should have been removed years ago. The Russians and PL have gotten particurly good at this when things are not going as planned

And while your accuiring more and more supers from the territories you have conquered everyone else is acquiring less and less and the gap gets bigger and bigger


Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.08.05 22:21:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Ur235
Edited by: Ur235 on 05/08/2011 22:09:05

Of course they made a mistake if you have more supercaps than anyone else you can take whatever space you want when you want. If you deploy 40 super carriers and your enemy can only deploy 10 then you win that space pretty much all you gotta do is throw a couple of hundred BS's at a cyno jammer and then you can laugh at them not having enough of there own supercaps. Sure you could say a smart subcap fleet could nullify a supercap fleet but we all know Eve in its current state does not allow for smarter tactics than your enemy to be successfull because of the huge amount of lag involved in 0.0 warfare.

And ofc when a huge supercap fleet fight isnt going as planned they can always log off and wait for there 15 min timer is up because lets face it theres no way any fleet is going to take down all current enemy supercapitals on the grid within 15 minuites. I wreckon if your gonna loose your supercap fleet you must see it through to the end and save as many as you can when you can not just just logoffski and minimize your losses because that is totally stupid and something that should have been removed years ago. The Russians and PL have gotten particurly good at this when things are not going as planned

And while your accuiring more and more supers from the territories you have conquered everyone else is acquiring less and less and the gap gets bigger and bigger




Pretty sure we have the largest supercap fleet in game held by a single alliance, and I'm pretty sure that we can't really take what we want, so that pretty much invalidates EVERYTHING you said

Ayieka
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.05 22:25:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Grath Telkin

Pretty sure we have the largest supercap fleet in game held by a single alliance, and I'm pretty sure that we can't really take what we want



yeah not with that attitude.

Ur235
Mind Games.
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.08.05 22:47:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Ur235 on 05/08/2011 23:01:21

Originally by: Grath Telkin
Originally by: Ur235


Of course they made a mistake if you have more supercaps than anyone else you can take whatever space you want when you want. If you deploy 40 super carriers and your enemy can only deploy 10 then you win that space pretty much all you gotta do is throw a couple of hundred BS's at a cyno jammer and then you can laugh at them not having enough of there own supercaps. Sure you could say a smart subcap fleet could nullify a supercap fleet but we all know Eve in its current state does not allow for smarter tactics than your enemy to be successfull because of the huge amount of lag involved in 0.0 warfare.

And ofc when a huge supercap fleet fight isnt going as planned they can always log off and wait for there 15 min timer is up because lets face it theres no way any fleet is going to take down all current enemy supercapitals on the grid within 15 minuites. I wreckon if your gonna loose your supercap fleet you must see it through to the end and save as many as you can when you can not just just logoffski and minimize your losses because that is totally stupid and something that should have been removed years ago. The Russians and PL have gotten particurly good at this when things are not going as planned

And while your accuiring more and more supers from the territories you have conquered everyone else is acquiring less and less and the gap gets bigger and bigger




Pretty sure we have the largest supercap fleet in game held by a single alliance, and I'm pretty sure that we can't really take what we want, so that pretty much invalidates EVERYTHING you said



Lol that because PL doesnt wanna go through the boring process of structure bashing every day. But when you do want or are getting paid for it your supercaps guarantee success Atlas and triple A etc all had far less supers than you did. In the case of Atlas you (in PL's own words) used a blitzkireg tactic in the Atlas home system by camping there main station with 100+ supers for a few days and guess what? you won the war. When you took a contract out against triple A they didnt really bother fighting you because they couldnt match your supercap numbers so you took all of there space within 2 weeks before giving it back to whoever had paid you to take it

So yeh they are overpowered and having more than your Enemy pretty much 90% of the time guarantees success in whatever territory you want to take

Face it

Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar
Nomadic Asylum
Posted - 2011.08.05 22:49:00 - [14]
 

You really don't want to argue with Grath about supers. It will only end badly.

YuuKnow
Posted - 2011.08.05 22:53:00 - [15]
 

Yes. Supercapitals are overpowered. Question is.... now what to do about them.

Ame Sonoda
Caldari
Requiem of the Sinner
Posted - 2011.08.05 22:56:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Ayieka
Originally by: Grath Telkin

Pretty sure we have the largest supercap fleet in game held by a single alliance, and I'm pretty sure that we can't really take what we want



yeah not with that attitude.


Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. not with any attitude!

Decimus Octavius
Posted - 2011.08.05 23:50:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Grath Telkin

Pretty sure we have the largest supercap fleet in game held by a single alliance, and I'm pretty sure that we can't really take what we want, so that pretty much invalidates EVERYTHING you said


Translated to: don't nerf supercaps because we need OP supers to win.
You are slightly correct in that you couldn't beat goons due to cyno jammers which require you to use a subcap fleets which you now suck in due to your reliance on OP supercaps. Laughing

Issaries Valran
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.06 00:24:00 - [18]
 

I can't take this OP serious and all the other fools in here too.

Does no one know that Titans are Super Capitals also?

Super Capitals are Capital ships that you can't dock in a station. That would be Titans and Supper Carriers.

The problem with Super Capitals is not that they are extremely powerful. It is that their numbers are growing far faster than they blowup.

Originally it was thought by CCP when they introduced Super Capitals was that their numbers would stay low because of they cost to make them and the time needed. And because they would take a very well organized Alliance to build them. A lot of team work with in an Alliance or Corp to get them built.

Super Capitals were never suppose to be an individuals asset but a Corp or Alliance asset.

But that was all proved a false assumption, by CCP. Dedicated individuals found ways to make them, buy them and have them. And their numbers seem to always go up and very few of them blowup.

CCP probably should of designed them to be a true Corp or Alliance asset and not something an individual could ever have by themselves.

CCP probably should of built in some kind of Super Capital maintenance system that would require an Alliance or Corp to pay in some form to maintain their strategic Super Capital fleet, that would cost more and more exponentially the more Super Capitals you had. And the number of Super Capitals you can have in your Alliance would be related to the number of Active pilots you have in some form. To help to control their numbers. Which is what is really getting out of control, not how powerful they are, but how many they are and how few are getting taken out of the game.

Acac Sunflyier
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.06 00:27:00 - [19]
 

Did CCP made a mistake by introducing super-caps

You mean; did C.C.P. make a mistake by introducing super capital ships.


And I'd like to reply, "No, super capital ships are a cool feature in the game." They're just too powerful right now.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.06 00:32:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Issaries Valran

The problem with Super Capitals is not that they are extremely powerful. It is that their numbers are growing far faster than they blowup.

That's the very definition of overpowered. :)

Issaries Valran
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.06 00:54:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
Originally by: Issaries Valran

The problem with Super Capitals is not that they are extremely powerful. It is that their numbers are growing far faster than they blowup.

That's the very definition of overpowered. :)


That is far from the definition of overpowered. You don't know what overpowered is. Overpowered would be one super carrier killing all by itself with out any fleet support, another fleet 500 strong.

The Super Capital problem has everything to do with their numbers, how many are getting add to the game and how fast they are getting taken out of the game. There are Super Capitals still in the game currently that were made years ago when they were first introduced.

It is an over population problem not a power problem, individually super capitals are weak. And a smart small fleet could take them out. But large numbers or them become a problem.

Nerfing them won't control their numbers, they will just not be taken into battle anymore like they were not taken into battle before, which helped add to their numbers since they were getting made but were not getting used much.

Rawbone
Gallente
S3MINAL FLUID
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2011.08.06 01:59:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: JC Ferguson
No, CCP made a mistake by allowing bots to proliferate virtually unchecked.

Supercaps aren't unbalanced. Fleets with dozens/hundreds of supercaps are unbalanced.


Quoted for truth.

XIRUSPHERE
Gallente
Deadly Intent.
Posted - 2011.08.06 02:23:00 - [23]
 

Part of the problem lies inherently with the design principals and pandering CCP has spent years adhering to in lock step. That is making EVE soft, easy, and carebear centric. Super capitals have gone out of control because they appeal primarily to the two subsets of gamers that can readily afford and attain them without a need to be either skilled or part of a greater entity, often on their own.

These subsets are botters and hardcore carebears who have ridiculous quantities of easily obtained wealth. Prior to the SC buff motherships were an oddball and took some real skill and balls to use effectively. See ADHD, invicta and friends and other famous examples. At the time the appeal of such a ship was minimal at best, post buff they gave a player with lots of isk but little incentive an easy and effective vehicle that conveys both power coupled with extremely low risk.

A number of entities set barriers to even joining them at already having a SC and yet the flood gates were open, and many a soul who desire the wait>jump>target>fighters side of pvp remained undaunted. Despite multiple nerfs ISK is incredibly easy to obtain both legitimately and not and the buffs and doctrine used with these ships fully appeal to those who want pvp nearly without risk. If it weren't for so many of the pilots being carebears it's fair to say that you would hardly ever see one lost.

A solution? Stop catering to carebears and botters, reduce the extreme nature of the buff and eliminate the EWAR immunity that actually made that ship worth it's salt when it was nothing but 2x the carrier for 30x the price. The only way you are going to rein in SC now is to introduce pilot skill as a factor in piloting them and making them frightfully unappealing to carebears by introducing true risk. Make them mean something aside easy mode, make them take consolidated group effort just in ownership alone and you will find your solution.


Lord Wiggin
Gallente
Furian Necromongers
Posted - 2011.08.06 02:52:00 - [24]
 

They aren't overpowered.
The problem is CCP created an isk faucet in 0.0, and everyone got in the water.
Now, after all this time, CCP Nerfs 0.0 to try to fix it. (But doesn't address moon goo)

It's kinda like....Leaving the barn door open, having the barn burn down, have it buried by tractors, and then trying to rescue the horse....


Cool


Harener
Posted - 2011.08.06 04:20:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Grath Telkin
Originally by: Ur235
Edited by: Ur235 on 05/08/2011 22:09:05

Of course they made a mistake if you have more supercaps than anyone else you can take whatever space you want when you want. If you deploy 40 super carriers and your enemy can only deploy 10 then you win that space pretty much all you gotta do is throw a couple of hundred BS's at a cyno jammer and then you can laugh at them not having enough of there own supercaps. Sure you could say a smart subcap fleet could nullify a supercap fleet but we all know Eve in its current state does not allow for smarter tactics than your enemy to be successfull because of the huge amount of lag involved in 0.0 warfare.

And ofc when a huge supercap fleet fight isnt going as planned they can always log off and wait for there 15 min timer is up because lets face it theres no way any fleet is going to take down all current enemy supercapitals on the grid within 15 minuites. I wreckon if your gonna loose your supercap fleet you must see it through to the end and save as many as you can when you can not just just logoffski and minimize your losses because that is totally stupid and something that should have been removed years ago. The Russians and PL have gotten particurly good at this when things are not going as planned

And while your accuiring more and more supers from the territories you have conquered everyone else is acquiring less and less and the gap gets bigger and bigger




Pretty sure we have the largest supercap fleet in game held by a single alliance, and I'm pretty sure that we can't really take what we want, so that pretty much invalidates EVERYTHING you said

Yea, because you won't be fighting SINGLE alliances, but coalitions. Also, alliances in the DRF have way more supers than you. For example, almost everyone in xXDeathXx flies one, or at least has an alt that flies one.

Tze Len
Posted - 2011.08.06 04:42:00 - [26]
 

Excuse my WH runner ignorance (dont spend a lot of time in Knull). But wouldnt the whole "Supercarrier = solopwnmobile" be fixxed if CCP just reverted the changes, turning them back into Motherships and removing the Fighter Bombers? I never heard of much problems from them when they where moms.

As for titans, 80b isk ship which can only hit pheasably BS and above... seems balanced (compared to supercarriers anti-EVERYTHING).

Harener
Posted - 2011.08.06 04:47:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Harener on 06/08/2011 04:54:20
Originally by: Tze Len
Excuse my WH runner ignorance (dont spend a lot of time in Knull). But wouldnt the whole "Supercarrier = solopwnmobile" be fixxed if CCP just reverted the changes, turning them back into Motherships and removing the Fighter Bombers? I never heard of much problems from them when they where moms.

As for titans, 80b isk ship which can only hit pheasably BS and above... seems balanced (compared to supercarriers anti-EVERYTHING).
supercarriers are useless against subs because of the amount of lag in large fights. It is 50 titan blobs that wreck subcaps. (all your logi and command ships dead the instant the fight starts, gg). From there on, each titan can kill 1 BS every 10 secs (some can even alpha them).

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2011.08.06 05:02:00 - [28]
 

No, CCP did not make any mistake when introducing them.

We had 2-4 titans "only" for a very long time, and not many more motherships. The logistics back then was a *****, for one, and there was no sov four+ to protect your production either. For a very long time a mothership cost 40-45bil, and was a huge investment for the producer with major risks involved.

The mistakes done by CCP came later on.

a) First by introducing JF's and jumpbridges
b) Second by misjudging player dedication, we did put that effort into building those titans early on so we did get the jumpbridges to use for production. We did put effort into researching BPO's, etc.
c) Thirdly, as in all industry in EVE, eventually the numbers of researched BPO's can more than satiate the market, look at how cheap you can get capital components today
d) ..and since day one in this game, players get richer/isk gets worth less. My first billion took me longer back than then I can make 50bil today. With low effort.
e) And then we had the sov systems (twice introduced) which made the production even more "safe"
f) Eventually the final piece of the buff came that really affect players today and make them whine so much; fighterbombers.

Motherships were fine at the start. They were damn powerful and near unkillable in lowsec pre-HICs, we didn't have enough numbers and good players to successfully bump them to death. But they were very rare, and super-expensive.

Motherships were really **** for a few years after that, HICs and Dreads made moms pretty much useless for years. Several years.

Eventually the much needed buff came, in terms of hitpoints and longer jumprange, both badly needed. But - CCP also decided to give them fighterbombers. That was really silly, and where it really kicked off.

Moms are fine. Fighterbombers are not. And the easy logistics to build supers are ridicilous in all aspects, Titans as well tbfh. CCP's idea to get supers "involved" by being damage-machines, backfired. Time to re-evaluate the damage aspects of both moms and titans, let dreads play that role. Any other nerf to them is unecessary. They needed that extra hp and jumprange for a reason. And the non-fighter dronebay is a necessary evil to give a slight chance of selfdefence. Or do you/CCP only want to see supers in blobs? Isn't it a good thing if they move around small-scale?

Alxea
Posted - 2011.08.06 05:44:00 - [29]
 

Your silly, Supercaps involve both Titans and supercarriers. Both have always been in the game since about 2005. They are meant to be powerful because they are one of the end game ships. If they were not powerful and expensive do you think they would ever be used?

Before they were called motherships. You know what mom's did all day before the buff? They were never used. Rolling Eyes This is why CCP gave them a massive buff so they wouldn't do less damage then a dread. Because that was ******ed a Nyx could only do 3000 DPS. A Moros can do near 10,000 DPS with faction ammo overloaded in siege.

Now this is the standard DPS of a Nyx same dps of a dread. And doesn't die in 1 min to a blob like it use to when the HP limit was about 5 million ehp. They increased it to about 20mil with T2 and 40 mil with deadspace and officer fit. You realize these ships cost between 30 and 40 billion isk right? They had better be powerful for the cost.

Alone they are fine and a average dread fleet can kill one in a few mins with support. When powerful alliances make a lot of them in superior numbers its the blobs that are overpowered. Not the supers themselves. But you can say the same thing about any ship thats blobbed into action. Drakes are then called overpowered once there is 100x of them blobbing you then you cry how drakes are overpowered or said ship thats over used in blobs.

I think I'm going to call you a troll on this one because CCP is not going to reverse them back to a unusable state. Your just mad because you were blobbed by some I would imagine. What they are going to do to supercaps is just tweak the numbers around and possibly remove their ability to use all drones but fighter bombers that way they won't be so versitile vs sub caps.

Tho when you target paint and web a primary target to hell and back FB's will melt any ship reguardless because its meant to be anti-support-support. Keep in mind they also take about a year to train for, they are the 2nd most expensive capital ship sized ships in the game, you could never afford one in your lifetime most likely, and they die all the time, they take about a month to build, require massive resources to build, massive teamwork is required to even think of making them.

Perhaps old alliances have become too powerful and dominate the universe. If CCP nerfs something, people will just build more of the next best ship and overuse it. I think that its blobs that can make anything overpowered and not one ship. If they nerf supercarriers back to unusable states then the alliances will just build more titans and have a blob of titans insta a cap fleet. Then your argument is going to go towards titans and any other overused ship in blobs.

Makes your arguments more trollish then you see the irony in it all. Best to just go in a corner and suck on your thumb and cry it out or get over it. Rolling Eyes

Harener
Posted - 2011.08.06 06:01:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Harener on 06/08/2011 06:04:51
Originally by: Alxea
fallacies
Post on your main, or is that your main? If so, looking at your alliance and KB, you have never fought a super fleet.

The difference between blobbing with drakes, vs supers, is that any alliance can afford a blob of drakes. Subcaps also require a lot more tactics, which is why many fleets have won while outnumbered.

The only counter to supers is MORE supers.

Having a big supercap advantage now grantees you will make the most supercaps, leading to a self-perpetuating cycle where the ones with power will stay in power. Look at the DRF: they have had the east for YEARS due to their supercap blob. And at the rate they are making supers, no one will ever usurp them.


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