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Helena Vexar
Posted - 2011.08.14 15:37:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Helena Vexar on 14/08/2011 15:44:25
Edited by: Helena Vexar on 14/08/2011 15:36:50
Would also like to add that I did not start this topic someone else did, so I am clearly not the only one with the issue. The OP also has a decent skill set from what he was saying as far as being able to fly t3s. That requires significant support skills. You all just want to fight and argue with me.

I am also not having trouble hitting smaller ships in pve, so those of you who think I am refering to that, you now know I refer to pvp

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.14 17:01:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Helena Vexar
Would also like to add that I did not start this topic someone else did, so I am clearly not the only one with the issue. The OP also has a decent skill set from what he was saying as far as being able to fly t3s. That requires significant support skills. You all just want to fight and argue with me.


1) You need MORE support skills for a Battleship, NOT a T3.
2) You've had responses from people who very clearly know what they are talking about, telling you that you are wrong.
3) WE want to fight and argue?!? You're the one who has come into this thread, with VERY LITTLE EXPERIENCE and is telling EVERYONE ELSE that they are wrong. Have you stopped for just one second, and thought about what you are doing? You either are REALLY REALLY stupid, or you actually created a toon, failed a lot at PVP, just to troll the forums. I'm betting on the first, though the second would be an epic effort input.
Quote:
I can assure you that you will not win a slugfest dps to ehp when the cane is at 5000m or below because I have tried it, and you have seen my fits, they are not horrible

1) I've shown you that you WOULD WIN IT in the worst possible scenario, which already assumed god-awful piloting by you.
2) Yes, I have seen your fits. Yes, they ARE ACTUALLY terrible, as referenced by myself and every one else in this thread.

n.b. you say YOU have the experience of going 1 v 1 against a battlecruiser, not us?
Well the SINGLE instance I can find of this on your killboard is ... is ... oh I can't link it as I can't find one. Weird, that. So which one ARE you so butthurt about? The 1 v 1 with the Gila, where you lost a fail fit? The one where you lost to three ships, only one of which was a cane? The one where you lost a sniping Apoc to close range ships? The one where you lost three on one? How about five on one?

Please enlighten us, as we're clearly all doing something wrong, when we try to use Amarr battleships and don't lose horribly. There's a good reason the Abaddon sees the most use out of near any battleship, still, in null.

You're basically trying to solo in a ship NOT DESIGNED to solo, in an environment (factional warfare) that has almost exclusively the realm of small gang PVP, and throwing your arms up in the air, wondering what could POSSIBLY be wrong with this picture.

I could go on and on .. but you won't listen anyway.

There's a good reason people are coming on here and defending battleships. Maybe .. just maybe, you'll stop, think, and try to see what it is.

Hwong Jian
Posted - 2011.08.14 18:05:00 - [93]
 

I'm going to toss out my two ISK.

OP is wrong. As any good carpenter or mechanic knows, for every job there is an ideal tool.

To the idiot screaming about BCs and cruisers getting under a BSs guns, learn to fly your ship a bit better. Neut him out, turn on your MWD and pull range/nullify his transversal. A BSs buffer should be enough to handle the damage a missile boat or AC ship can put out while you neut and shoot.

TL;DR: Learn how to fight on your terms.

Also, when I first started to pvp, I thought the best practice was to always fly your biggest and best ship. A quick browse of Battleclinic will show how badly that hit me.

Since then, I've learned that it's not the size of the ship you fly, it's not the amount of skills you have trained. The most important aspect of pvp is the ability to evaluate your target before you get into point range. Learn what you can and can't kill and act accordingly.

Helena Vexar
Posted - 2011.08.14 18:23:00 - [94]
 

Edited by: Helena Vexar on 14/08/2011 18:46:52
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Helena Vexar
Would also like to add that I did not start this topic someone else did, so I am clearly not the only one with the issue. The OP also has a decent skill set from what he was saying as far as being able to fly t3s. That requires significant support skills. You all just want to fight and argue with me.


1) You need MORE support skills for a Battleship, NOT a T3.
2) You've had responses from people who very clearly know what they are talking about, telling you that you are wrong.
3) WE want to fight and argue?!? You're the one who has come into this thread, with VERY LITTLE EXPERIENCE and is telling EVERYONE ELSE that they are wrong. Have you stopped for just one second, and thought about what you are doing? You either are REALLY REALLY stupid, or you actually created a toon, failed a lot at PVP, just to troll the forums. I'm betting on the first, though the second would be an epic effort input.
Quote:
I can assure you that you will not win a slugfest dps to ehp when the cane is at 5000m or below because I have tried it, and you have seen my fits, they are not horrible

1) I've shown you that you WOULD WIN IT in the worst possible scenario, which already assumed god-awful piloting by you.
2) Yes, I have seen your fits. Yes, they ARE ACTUALLY terrible, as referenced by myself and every one else in this thread.

n.b. you say YOU have the experience of going 1 v 1 against a battlecruiser, not us?
Well the SINGLE instance I can find of this on your killboard is ... is ... oh I can't link it as I can't find one. Weird, that. So which one ARE you so butthurt about? The 1 v 1 with the Gila, where you lost a fail fit? The one where you lost to three ships, only one of which was a cane? The one where you lost a sniping Apoc to close range ships? The one where you lost three on one? How about five on one?

Please enlighten us, as we're clearly all doing something wrong, when we try to use Amarr battleships and don't lose horribly. There's a good reason the Abaddon sees the most use out of near any battleship, still, in null.

You're basically trying to solo in a ship NOT DESIGNED to solo, in an environment (factional warfare) that has almost exclusively the realm of small gang PVP, and throwing your arms up in the air, wondering what could POSSIBLY be wrong with this picture.

I could go on and on .. but you won't listen anyway.

There's a good reason people are coming on here and defending battleships. Maybe .. just maybe, you'll stop, think, and try to see what it is.


Please explain to me how my fits are terrible, minus the one against the gia because that was a pve fit and I was killed during a mission. Tell me how my geddon fits were horrible? What should I have fit?

and both the three on one fights you posted, the cane did mostly all the damage and would have taken me easily even had there not been others. Those fits were also fairly standard buffer geddon fits, minus t2 guns which would not have made a huge difference seeing as those fights took place at litterally 1000 ms and scortch would not have been used

and its funny in ur killboard I cant find a single amarr bs kill u have gotten 1v1 in your history. So who has more experience in the situation at hand?

The whole reason you say they are not designed for solo is the reason me and the OP have posted our opinions that that they are bad in the first place. Any t1 ship with decent firepower smaller than it can take it down without fear. When was the last time a BS warped in and the fleet said "oh ****"?

Kimton
Posted - 2011.08.14 19:58:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Kimton
rats plowing straight into your opt range without fail makes no sense


the ones you have to kill fly right to 12km (or closer) in a VG, every single time. it never changes.


You said it as if its a bad thing, 12 - 14k is perfect range for web and for and amarr pilot like myself, that range is right in my kill zone.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.08.14 20:32:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 14/08/2011 20:32:58
Originally by: Kimton
You said it as if its a bad thing, 12 - 14k is perfect range for web and for and amarr pilot like myself, that range is right in my kill zone.


You realize that doesn't happen anywhere else in the game, right? Saying, "oh BS are so awesome in incursions so they are awesome in general!!!!" is dumb because that is the only situation where the deck is so heavily stacked in favor of BSes.

Well, that and highsec POS shoots, lol.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.08.14 20:54:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Helena Vexar
So who has more experience in the situation at hand?


I do.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2011.08.14 21:06:00 - [98]
 

Edited by: ShahFluffers on 14/08/2011 21:05:51
Originally by: Helena Vexar

Please explain to me how my fits are terrible, minus the one against the gia because that was a pve fit and I was killed during a mission. Tell me how my geddon fits were horrible? What should I have fit?


[Armageddon - Standard fit]

[Lows]
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Heat Sink II

[Mids]
Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Heavy ElectroChemical Capacitor Booster I (800 charges)
Warp Disruptor II

[Highs]
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II (Multifrequency)
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II (Multifrequency)
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II (Multifrequency)
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II (Multifrequency)
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II (Multifrequency)
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II (Multifrequency)
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II (Multifrequency)
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

[Rigs]
Large Trimark Armor Pumps I
Large Trimark Armor Pumps I
Large Trimark Armor Pumps I

[Drones]
4x Berserker II
5x Warrior II

Stats: with all level 4 skills it has 120k ~ 135k EHP... deals about ~550 DPS... tracking is a bit better than a Garde II sentry drone.

Notes:
- I tend to prefer a heavy tank on my battleships... if this doesn't appeal to you then you can toss the EANM II for another Heat Sink II
- If you can't fit T2 equipment, go down to best named
- Minmitar Heavy drones are preferred when dealing with large mobile ships (like the Hurricane) due to their speed
- The Armageddon is by nature not a soloing ship. This fit just offers the best "point defense" without giving up its main purpose (i.e. killing other big ships). If you know what you are doing then 1 on 1 you SHOULD be able to kill or force a stalemate against another ship, thus allowing you to escape

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.08.14 21:40:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Helena Vexar
Edited by: Helena Vexar on 06/08/2011 14:25:42
I love all these asshats on here trying to claim it's the pilot with the problem. I will take on any one of your battleships any day of the week in a T1 cruiser and **** your face. BS suck in this game, I dont care how many skills you have. They won't hit the broadside of a barn if the target is smaller than another BS and happens to get in under 5000 meters. I don't care if you have tackle and tracking enhancers, you will still have trouble hitting BC at close range, let alone cruisers. Any smart pvp pilot up against a BS will know to get in under his guns, and after he does, it is all over for the BS. End of story. BS are a joke.

Yes, I have heard the fleet argument time and time again. BS are intended for fleets. Well if a ship needs to rely on a fleet, it doesn't speak well for its effectivness. My plated prophecy sucks ass in pvp. Put it in a logi fleet and it's a beast. Does that mean the prophecy is a good pvp ship? NO. The same thing can be said about the Maller, or the Ferox. Both are awful ships in pvp, put them in a logi fleet and they suddenly don't suck anymore. In fact, what ship doesn't shine in a fleet? Does that make them good ships? No, it makes them mediocre ships leaning on a fleet to make them halfway decent.

The fact is, a BS is great on paper, but the OP is right. The tracking on large guns is so bad at close ranges and even sometimes medium ranges when targetting smaller ships that they are not worth the amount of isk you pour into building and fitting them. BCs, cruisers and HACs can do the exact same job 100 times better, with 100 percent more mobility. All that on paper firepower is wasted because 75 percent of it never hits a target smaller than itself. And lets be honest, what good is a BS killer, if the enemy BS can't hit anything worth a damn other than other BS? Other than station bashing, which capital dreads are better suited for, BS have no real purpose. Unless a BS can somehow keep its target at 30 or 40km and remain static while firing off its guns, it will never be able to make use of its firepower and be worth a damn. This is why nobody flies them anymore.


I'll be your huckleberry

Kimton
Posted - 2011.08.15 02:46:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 14/08/2011 20:32:58
Originally by: Kimton
You said it as if its a bad thing, 12 - 14k is perfect range for web and for and amarr pilot like myself, that range is right in my kill zone.


You realize that doesn't happen anywhere else in the game, right? Saying, "oh BS are so awesome in incursions so they are awesome in general!!!!" is dumb because that is the only situation where the deck is so heavily stacked in favor of BSes.

Well, that and highsec POS shoots, lol.


Yes, my intention was to say that BS are awesome in incursion but I never mention that they are good in general. I simply wanted to show the OP one of BS (I do agree that is limited) roles and purposes. Also, I fly Legion in incursions, but if I could fly a well fitted Vindi or Mach, I'd switch in a heart beat.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.08.15 06:59:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Helena Vexar
Originally by: Demon Azrakel


But this poster is actually right; nano gangs are not only used because they can get away from larger groups (the purpose and what they should be good at), but also because they are too hard to hit for a battleship. I feel like a ship's speed and maneuverability should be more important in a strategic sense and placement sense, not in a "haha, you can't hit me" sense.


Finaly, someone with actual common sense.


Common sense would tell you that this argument is bull****, Nano ships use MWDs and MWDs (with the exception of Interceptors) make you easier to hit not harder. Sure they increase speed but if you read the damned description it tells you that the signature bloom matches the velocity increase. This means that in the absolute best case (flat out in a perfect orbit around a stationary ship) you'll be just as easy/hard to hit as if you weren't using a MWD at all. In any situation other than that best case you'll actually be easier to hit because while you may not be getting max traversal you will be getting max signature bloom.

Even better for the BS (which typically has longer ranged weapons than frigs/cruisers) higher speeds mean larger orbits meaning longer range shots and thanks to the way tracking works it's actually easier to track things at a distance than up close so a NanoCane orbiting with an MWD on at max point range is going to make a nice fat easy to hit target for a pulse BS, even better a heavy neut is going to push right out to where they are orbiting and crush their cap and once their MWD goes offline they are no longer the one dictating range. at this point they better hope their ecm drones get a lucky cycle or they're going to be adorning your KB.

At this point the your lasers are going to tear through their two weakest resists like butter.


Aamrr
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:24:00 - [102]
 

If you ignore the skill that improves the benefit from propulsion modules (acceleration control), sure.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:04:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
If you ignore the skill that improves the benefit from propulsion modules (acceleration control), sure.


Fair point forgot about Acc control so that means with with max acc con you get become 25% harder to track if you are at a perfect orbit against a stationary target.

Still not enough generally for a BC to out track a BS weapon system particularly at point range where tracking is generally pretty easy. and that only lasts for the 50 some odd seconds until a heavy neut turns it off.

Regardless the general idea behind a nanoboat is to engage outside the enemies range which is damned hard to do against a BS particularly a laser BS. Otherwise you're going to run into tracking problems of your own.

Anything that's planning on speed tanking will go with short ranged weapons and an AB for up close and personal fun under the targets guns (if it can get there before imploding.)At which point they have to deal with drones that can now be deployed recalled and redeployed instantly should the enemy have the presence of mind to try and kill them.

Truth is the only thing a BS really has to fear from a BC or cruiser (or frig for that matter) is that it has buddies inbound.

A single BC or Cruiser should never be a threat to a properly fit BS with a skilled pilot.

Of course lots of BSs aren't properly fit or flown by skilled pilots.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.08.15 20:03:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Helena Vexar
So who has more experience in the situation at hand?


I do.
The part right before what you quoted mentions 1v1s, try again.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.08.15 20:15:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Helena Vexar
So who has more experience in the situation at hand?


I do.
The part right before what you quoted mentions 1v1s, try again.


Because I have never has a 1v1 fight in a BS in the past 5 yearsRolling Eyes

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.08.15 21:26:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Helena Vexar
So who has more experience in the situation at hand?


I do.
The part right before what you quoted mentions 1v1s, try again.


Because I have never has a 1v1 fight in a BS in the past 5 yearsRolling Eyes
If you're going to chip in to a thread about how you have more experience than some other guy, typically you want to be able to back that up with a fair bit of, you know, experience. Last solo kill I see from you was you killing a bomber with your raven. Most of your kills come from 80man+ fleets. Like I said, try again.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.08.15 21:50:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Cambarus
Last solo kill I see from you was you killing a bomber with your raven.


That raven is so much fun to fly. Shame I didnt get the other two but they got scared when the first one went down.

Anyway you are going to have to go back through 5 years worth of KM to get an idea of my experience and that doesnt include the fights where the target runs away or I do. Said this many times but a KB is a horrible way to guage someones experience and I only use it to get an idea of how someone fits their ships.

The OP however sounds like what I thought 5 years ago when I fail fitted my BS and tossed them into bad situations.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.08.15 22:20:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Cambarus
Last solo kill I see from you was you killing a bomber with your raven.


That raven is so much fun to fly. Shame I didnt get the other two but they got scared when the first one went down.

Anyway you are going to have to go back through 5 years worth of KM to get an idea of my experience and that doesnt include the fights where the target runs away or I do. Said this many times but a KB is a horrible way to guage someones experience and I only use it to get an idea of how someone fits their ships.

The OP however sounds like what I thought 5 years ago when I fail fitted my BS and tossed them into bad situations.
I really don't have to sift through all of your eve pvp experience, because anything prior to the last nano-nerf is irrelevant. If you're going to go around claiming that your experience tells you x and your experience tells you Y, you're going to need some proof to back it up. A KB may not be perfect, but it's the best thing we have as it stands to show what someone has done throughout their pvp experience, so unless you've got something that says otherwise, you don't have anything to back up your claim that you've got experience, so why should anyone believe you?

Helena Vexar
Posted - 2011.08.15 23:05:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Cambarus
Last solo kill I see from you was you killing a bomber with your raven.


That raven is so much fun to fly. Shame I didnt get the other two but they got scared when the first one went down.

Anyway you are going to have to go back through 5 years worth of KM to get an idea of my experience and that doesnt include the fights where the target runs away or I do. Said this many times but a KB is a horrible way to guage someones experience and I only use it to get an idea of how someone fits their ships.

The OP however sounds like what I thought 5 years ago when I fail fitted my BS and tossed them into bad situations.
I really don't have to sift through all of your eve pvp experience, because anything prior to the last nano-nerf is irrelevant. If you're going to go around claiming that your experience tells you x and your experience tells you Y, you're going to need some proof to back it up. A KB may not be perfect, but it's the best thing we have as it stands to show what someone has done throughout their pvp experience, so unless you've got something that says otherwise, you don't have anything to back up your claim that you've got experience, so why should anyone believe you?


Could not have said it better myself.

Helena Vexar
Posted - 2011.08.15 23:11:00 - [110]
 

Edited by: Helena Vexar on 15/08/2011 23:24:32
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: Helena Vexar
Originally by: Demon Azrakel


But this poster is actually right; nano gangs are not only used because they can get away from larger groups (the purpose and what they should be good at), but also because they are too hard to hit for a battleship. I feel like a ship's speed and maneuverability should be more important in a strategic sense and placement sense, not in a "haha, you can't hit me" sense.


Finaly, someone with actual common sense.


Common sense would tell you that this argument is bull****, Nano ships use MWDs and MWDs (with the exception of Interceptors) make you easier to hit not harder. Sure they increase speed but if you read the damned description it tells you that the signature bloom matches the velocity increase. This means that in the absolute best case (flat out in a perfect orbit around a stationary ship) you'll be just as easy/hard to hit as if you weren't using a MWD at all. In any situation other than that best case you'll actually be easier to hit because while you may not be getting max traversal you will be getting max signature bloom.

Even better for the BS (which typically has longer ranged weapons than frigs/cruisers) higher speeds mean larger orbits meaning longer range shots and thanks to the way tracking works it's actually easier to track things at a distance than up close so a NanoCane orbiting with an MWD on at max point range is going to make a nice fat easy to hit target for a pulse BS, even better a heavy neut is going to push right out to where they are orbiting and crush their cap and once their MWD goes offline they are no longer the one dictating range. at this point they better hope their ecm drones get a lucky cycle or they're going to be adorning your KB.

At this point the your lasers are going to tear through their two weakest resists like butter.




Wow, that paragraph is full of all kinds of neat assumptions, unfortunately none of them play out in pvp situations like you say.

A cane does not even need to have a prop mod activated under 5000ms for my dps to drop by at least half against him, due to the horrible tracking on large pulse lasers. The closer he gets to my BS the less damage I do, until I do nothing at all.

A heavy neut against a Cane will take forever to cap him out when all he is using that requires cap is a prop mod, web and jammer. So that's out of the question in terms of saving the day.

No matter what type of prop mod I have on, his will always be more effective and therefore unless I can completely shut his down, which even then it will not save me because chances are my prop mod is also shut down by a scrammer, I will not be able to out run him.

So basically, from actual pvp experience, and not fantasy experience, thats a whole bunch of bull**** you just spewed.

And a heavy neut is going to push right out to where they are orbiting? Do you really think Canes are speed tanking me at 15km you moron? They are not orbiting me at all, they are sitting next to my god damn ship painting "BLOW ME" on my ships hull, while smoking a cigar and banging a hooker! They are sitting at 1000 ms raping me in the tail pipe!


Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.16 00:07:00 - [111]
 

Helena,

You've been given logical reasons why you are wrong. You have failed to counter all of these. All you have done, this entire thread, is claim, miraculously, that you are the only person to have done this.

Exactly HOW are you letting a cane get so far under your guns, so quickly, that it is able to win a DPS / EHP slugfest against you? Any cane approaching from outside of 30km is already down to half it's EHP before it can even think about orbiting you at <1000m. And still, a cane just CAN'T maintain it's speed doing that, so it's transversal is all over the place and readily gets hit. Are you trying to orbit it!? Are you sitting still?! Are you even TRYING to manually fly, lower the transversal, and THEN take your shot?

If your argument was the usual "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA a T3 can't be hit... WAAAAAAA!!!" then you would at least have some weight to your argument. A shield cane has a ****ing 300m sig radius. YOU ARE ****ING TERRIBLE if you can't work with that.

Jesus ****ing christ, get a clue.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.08.16 00:21:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Helena,

You've been given logical reasons why you are wrong. You have failed to counter all of these. All you have done, this entire thread, is claim, miraculously, that you are the only person to have done this.

Jesus ****ing christ, get a clue.
I'm gonna side with lady on this one tbh. Tracking isn't THAT much of a problem in 1v1s, because regardless of the theoretical point beyond which you can't track, even with large short range guns you will more often than not be able to hit something of one class smaller, because nobody can maintain a perfect orbit, and flying in such a way that makes your transversal bounce between being so low anything can hit, and so high nothing can hit is actually rather easy. BSs tend to own BCs, BCs tend to own cruisers, cruisers own frigates. There are exceptions to this, but for the most part that's how it works.

BadPlebe
Posted - 2011.08.16 02:09:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Helena Vexar

Wow, that paragraph is full of all kinds of neat assumptions, unfortunately none of them play out in pvp situations like you say.

A cane does not even need to have a prop mod activated under 5000ms for my dps to drop by at least half against him, due to the horrible tracking on large pulse lasers. The closer he gets to my BS the less damage I do, until I do nothing at all.

A heavy neut against a Cane will take forever to cap him out when all he is using that requires cap is a prop mod, web and jammer. So that's out of the question in terms of saving the day.

No matter what type of prop mod I have on, his will always be more effective and therefore unless I can completely shut his down, which even then it will not save me because chances are my prop mod is also shut down by a scrammer, I will not be able to out run him.

So basically, from actual pvp experience, and not fantasy experience, thats a whole bunch of bull**** you just spewed.

And a heavy neut is going to push right out to where they are orbiting? Do you really think Canes are speed tanking me at 15km you moron? They are not orbiting me at all, they are sitting next to my god damn ship painting "BLOW ME" on my ships hull, while smoking a cigar and banging a hooker! They are sitting at 1000 ms raping me in the tail pipe!




So, to start, let's look at my pvp credentials (since apparently that's required for weighing in on this discussion)
Some highlights:
-Around 1,700th on battleclinic
-Lowsec PvP
-Sucess solo-ing in pvpppp in a dual rep dominix/other battleships
-HG slaves/HG crystals/HG snakes
-2007 character

so I'm not some noob scrub who just saw his first wardec in highsec (nor am I garmon/godscoldblood/insert well known pvper)

Anyway Helena, a simple look into EFT will show that you are full of it. consider the following ships:
Shield cane, standard:
highs: 425's + 2 med neuts
mids: mwd invuln LSE longpoint
Lows: 3 gyro, 2 TE, DCU II
rigs: 3 CDFE I
drones: warrior II
DPS with hail and damage implants: 840 (w/o heat)
Sig Radius: 299
EHP on invuln heat (not possible if neuted out): 53.6K

Geddon: Proving a point:
Highs: NO GUNS! NOT 1 GODDAMN GUN, 1 heavy neut
Mids: longpoint web cap booster
lows: 1 DCU II, 2 EANM, 2 1600 RT plates, 3 EMPTY SLOTS
drones: 5 Ogre II
DPS: 317
EHP (HG slaves + zet5000): 167.1k

as you can see, the geddon is reminiscent of a 3 heat sink geddon (use coreli-C's instead of EANM for CPU) and would be trying to maximize gun DPS, IF IT HAD GUNS ON IT. Even this ganky version of the geddon will outslug a shield cane on drone damage alone.

Check out the Maths: 167.1k EHP/840 DPS = 198.92 seconds to kill
53.6K EHP/317 DPS = 169.08 seconds to kill

How is this possible? I thought canes could **** battleships inside of 5km while smoking cigars and banging prostitutes? I guess Helena Vexar (bottom 300,000 in battleclinic with 2x the losses to kills) must not know what the hell she is talking about.

some info to back up my little example which is still pertinent to the argument:
1: guns will add some DPS, you will get a few hits on the cane (this balances against the cane's ability to heat its guns in the previous example)

2: Ogre II's track shield canes that are webbed/in close

3: the shield cane has 299 sig radius with perfect skills (shield rigging skills at lvl 5? lol) this is 21 less than a typhoon (a battleship). if you cant track the shield cane, you are basically saying that you cant track another battleship

4: battleships need good support skills, this generally means (GASP) expensive pirate implants, T3 bonus alts, and lvl 5 skills.

finally, and I'm looking at you Helena, REMEMBER TO MANUAL PILOT! look at their ship (with the right click option) and spam click the direction they are flying. it minimizes transversal. It helps, A LOT.

umad? I live in Ostingele (Placid region) and am always up for 1v1's in any ship class I have on hand. come find me <3.


Cpt Fina
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2011.08.16 03:40:00 - [114]
 

When a T3 is on the field i **** my pants no matter what BS i'm in.

Unless I have a couple of large neuts i feel totally helpless. Confused

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.08.16 08:43:00 - [115]
 

This is a terrible thread. I've no idea what assumptions on fit you lot are using, but a TD or two will absolutely ruin a turret BS's day. I doubt Helena knows this though.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:59:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Cpt Fina
When a T3 is on the field i **** my pants no matter what BS i'm in.

Unless I have a couple of large neuts i feel totally helpless. Confused


I just call in buddies ;-)

I was messing around with a buddies legion in my Abaddon last night and I certainly wouldn't want to do that fight for real.

Then again a T3 should wtfbbq a solo BS it's a cruiser with BS EHP and DPS while maintaining cruiser sig, speed and tracking.

Helena you keep believing what you want I'm sure the Minmatar folks in FW are thankful for it.

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.08.16 17:59:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
This is a terrible thread. I've no idea what assumptions on fit you lot are using, but a TD or two will absolutely ruin a turret BS's day. I doubt Helena knows this though.


Neuts and drone bays. Feel free to use them. Not to mention her hypothetical cane is parked 1500m off sitting still with cigar and hooker in tow laughing while they miraculously dodge incoming fire. Neuts are terrible though. Just ask Helena. She clearly is an authority on the subject with that awesome KB and those failfits. No one has linked VIDEO of how to fight in a BS, or a ton of proven fits.

Must be the TD's Rolling Eyes

Hey a Doomsday from a hotdropped titan would ruin their day also. Any other captain obvious announcements?

tl;dr

Herp I can't suck enough, so I will blame the ship. Derp you all are stupid. I will cry more now. Then troll and find idiots to back me all while dodging the fact at least 3 people here are willing to blow me up to show me how BS are not fail. Add some hurf blurf for spice. Random comments by mongoloids about KB stats etc. 8/10 on the troll OP.

Conor Todaki
Pure Evil Warriors
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.16 22:00:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Nor Tzestu
Originally by: Helena Vexar
Edited by: Helena Vexar on 06/08/2011 14:25:42
I love all these asshats on here trying to claim it's the pilot with the problem. I will take on any one of your battleships any day of the week in a T1 cruiser and **** your face. BS suck in this game, I dont care how many skills you have. They won't hit the broadside of a barn if the target is smaller than another BS and happens to get in under 5000 meters. I don't care if you have tackle and tracking enhancers, you will still have trouble hitting BC at close range, let alone cruisers. Any smart pvp pilot up against a BS will know to get in under his guns, and after he does, it is all over for the BS. End of story. BS are a joke.

Yes, I have heard the fleet argument time and time again. BS are intended for fleets. Well if a ship needs to rely on a fleet, it doesn't speak well for its effectivness. My plated prophecy sucks ass in pvp. Put it in a logi fleet and it's a beast. Does that mean the prophecy is a good pvp ship? NO. The same thing can be said about the Maller, or the Ferox. Both are awful ships in pvp, put them in a logi fleet and they suddenly don't suck anymore. In fact, what ship doesn't shine in a fleet? Does that make them good ships? No, it makes them mediocre ships leaning on a fleet to make them halfway decent.

The fact is, a BS is great on paper, but the OP is right. The tracking on large guns is so bad at close ranges and even sometimes medium ranges when targetting smaller ships that they are not worth the amount of isk you pour into building and fitting them. BCs, cruisers and HACs can do the exact same job 100 times better, with 100 percent more mobility. All that on paper firepower is wasted because 75 percent of it never hits a target smaller than itself. And lets be honest, what good is a BS killer, if the enemy BS can't hit anything worth a damn other than other BS? Other than station bashing, which capital dreads are better suited for, BS have no real purpose. Unless a BS can somehow keep its target at 30 or 40km and remain static while firing off its guns, it will never be able to make use of its firepower and be worth a damn. This is why nobody flies them anymore.


Trolololol. Spoken like someone who is clearly doing it wrong. You come within 5000m of even a basic fit "crap" BS like a Hyperion, you won't live to see the third volley. I could go on all day about the various BS builds for PVP that can own large numbers of BC's and HAC's in a group. I won't as it's pretty obvious your more or less clueless.

I have a whopping 3.5 mil SP. I can probably fail pilot a BS in a couple weeks. So lets settle it then. Me in a tier 1 BS, you in whatever HAC/BC/T1 cruiser you want to see go up in flames as you get "under" my guns. No talk, no crap. I'll flip a can and you can come get it and we'll put this to rest.


Challenge accepted

Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.08.17 03:40:00 - [119]
 

This is the best thread I have read in awhile. I actually spent the time to read all 4 pages! Yay! Helena is a great source of entertainment. Either she is a 8/10 troll or REALLY dense. I haven't seen so many people give so much factual and relevant information to help a new player and all she does is argue with it. LOL

BSes absolutely rock and melt face. Great in small gangs or large fleets. I know so. So do all my alts

Dinsdale Pirannha
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.17 05:18:00 - [120]
 

Many of you have touched on it. I will spell it out in two words: "Neut Domi".

Neuts completely negate the tracking advantage of smaller ships. And funny thing, when you have no cap left, and your a/b or mwd shuts off, and your active tank mods (even your DCII) shuts off, and your scram/webber shuts off, it is kind of tough taking down a BS.

Another fun boat is the uberCane, also known as the Tempest.
Others have pointed out this is a lethal boat. Twin heavy neuts and 6 large T2 autocannons wreck most BCs' and cruisers' days.

Would I go cruising out in low/null in a BS looking for a fight? Of course not. A T2 cruiser gets into and out of trouble way faster.

But a BS is a horrifying boat in many cases. And it is a critical PvE platform. Ask wormhole people in C4's and above what the backbone of their sleeper fleet is.


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