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Tai Meijer
Caldari
Malkutha
Posted - 2011.08.04 21:18:00 - [1]
 

I have never understood why close range ships are plated, 1600mm rax for example, is their some reason for this? I don't mind being plated, but when you have to get close, it must be a pain right?

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.08.04 21:58:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Tai Meijer
I have never understood why close range ships are plated, 1600mm rax for example, is their some reason for this? I don't mind being plated, but when you have to get close, it must be a pain right?


They need some kind of tank but mids are taken up by mwd, scram, web and cap booster, in that order generally.

Tai Meijer
Caldari
Malkutha
Posted - 2011.08.04 22:07:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Tai Meijer
I have never understood why close range ships are plated, 1600mm rax for example, is their some reason for this? I don't mind being plated, but when you have to get close, it must be a pain right?


They need some kind of tank but mids are taken up by mwd, scram, web and cap booster, in that order generally.


Sorry should of been clearer, what i mean is why not use resists instead? that way you dont hurt your speed? Is it a combination of energy needed for tank, and buffer + natural resists are more effective? (Say against amarr - 50% em and 35%(i think) therm)?

gran sombrero
Posted - 2011.08.05 00:40:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: gran sombrero on 05/08/2011 00:40:56
well to start off with you never fit a just buffer and thats it.
You need to fit a plate and a damage control and one or more resist mods for example.

rax low slots;

1600mm plate
Damage control
Enegized adaptive
then damge mods!!

That will give you buffer and resists to slow the incomming damage.

Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
Posted - 2011.08.05 01:56:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Aloe Cloveris on 05/08/2011 02:02:57
Edited by: Aloe Cloveris on 05/08/2011 01:58:52
Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Tai Meijer
I have never understood why close range ships are plated, 1600mm rax for example, is their some reason for this? I don't mind being plated, but when you have to get close, it must be a pain right?


They need some kind of tank but mids are taken up by mwd, scram, web and cap booster, in that order generally.


Yeah, this. Mid-slots on Gallente ships need those scarce few mid-slots for prop mods, tackle and cap boosters. Also, resist-tanking blows because of diminishing returns on EANMs (they add 25% of the gap between current resists and 100%, so the first EANM II fills the 10% explosive hole by a whopping 22.5% ([100-10]*0.25) but adding a third or fourth T2 EANM to bolster, for example, 70% resists across-the-board would only bump them up by 7.5% ([100-70]*0.25) each. By this time it just makes a lot more sense to add 4200hp via plates than to bump your resists up by single-digit amount.

Sacrificing four of your lows for 55% damage-specific hardeners (that can be neuted off) isn't really a solution either.

ROXGenghis
Perkone
Posted - 2011.08.05 01:59:00 - [6]
 

The underlying answer is a fundamentally broken game design. Gallente, the race that needs the most mobility to apply its dps, armor tanks, which reduces mobility thru both mods and rigs.

Arran Chace
Posted - 2011.08.05 12:46:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: ROXGenghis
The underlying answer is a fundamentally broken game design. Gallente, the race that needs the most mobility to apply its dps, armor tanks, which reduces mobility thru both mods and rigs.


Which is mitigated by their e-war preference for sensor damps forcing opponents to come closer. The fact everyone abused damps and it subsequently got nerfed shows that the original design for Gallente was pretty reasonable but too powerful. And let's not forget a lot of Gallente ships get a significant portion or most of their dps from drones. They don't care how fast or slow their owner is.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.08.05 12:49:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Drykor on 05/08/2011 12:57:40
Edited by: Drykor on 05/08/2011 12:50:44
Originally by: ROXGenghis
The underlying answer is a fundamentally broken game design. Gallente, the race that needs the most mobility to apply its dps, armor tanks, which reduces mobility thru both mods and rigs.


On the other hand, if Gallente were the most mobile race, there would be no point in kiting or ranged ships anymore and Gallente would simply always win in small to medium engagements (up to a few dozen at most where you actually still have some time to travel to a target to apply dps)

So a flat out increase in mobility is definitely not the solution here.

Personally I'm more in favor of pronouncing differences between races instead of equalizing them all. The effect is that some races are flat out better at some things than others though, but I don't see a huge problem there. Maybe Gallente should just go all out drones, or maybe their base damage should be increased by a lot and the optimals/falloff be made even less. I tend to see people exaggerating the differences between Minmatar and Gallente range a lot, at least on unbonussed ships (i.e. no falloff bonus for Minmatar) as Gallente optimal is actually slightly higher and their falloff isn't as terrible as people make it out to be. The problem is a combination of being slower on average and having few ships with a relevant range increase, but it's not as huge of an issue as Gallente-specced people make it out to be.

Fredfredbug4
Posted - 2011.08.05 13:46:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Tai Meijer
I have never understood why close range ships are plated, 1600mm rax for example, is their some reason for this? I don't mind being plated, but when you have to get close, it must be a pain right?


Gallente and Amarr ships are slow whether or not they have plates. Giving them a larger tank gives them a better chance of closing in from a distance.

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
Posted - 2011.08.05 13:52:00 - [10]
 

If you were around in the nano/90% web days, you remember that Gallente used to be a practically auto-"I win" button in solo engagements, because if you got pointed and webbed, you were history. The other issue is that a lot of discussions about Gallente ships seem to ignore what happens when you fit railguns instead of blasters. I know they have tighter fitting requirements and tracking suck, but you can get legitimate range out of them, and the damage is respectable since most Gal ships get damage bonuses.

Also, long time ago, Gal ships were designed to hull tank, which changes the way the fits would set up.

Last, on the Gal ships you can put a legitimate shield tank on, you get some pretty good performance, even though the tank isn't as good as a pure armor buffer/rep setup. Brutix and Hyperion both can bring a ton of firepower and decent shield tank, all while keeping decent mobility. Last, before the projectile buff, this whole issue was less of one, because projectiles (as it should be it seems to me) brought the least amount of firepower to the table. Seems as though the fastest ships with the least firepower is balanced versus the slowest ships and most firepower.




ROXGenghis
Perkone
Posted - 2011.08.05 13:58:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Arran Chace
Originally by: ROXGenghis
The underlying answer is a fundamentally broken game design. Gallente, the race that needs the most mobility to apply its dps, armor tanks, which reduces mobility thru both mods and rigs.


Which is mitigated by their e-war preference for sensor damps forcing opponents to come closer. The fact everyone abused damps and it subsequently got nerfed shows that the original design for Gallente was pretty reasonable but too powerful. And let's not forget a lot of Gallente ships get a significant portion or most of their dps from drones. They don't care how fast or slow their owner is.

Yes, Gallente ships used to work better. Besides damps changing, the 90 -> 60% web change also made Gallente less viable. (Although the scram shutting down MWD probably helped them...as long as they are within web range anyway.) And with the original balance out the window and the new game mechanics, it's not clear how to rebalance them. As Drykor said, you can't just change one parameter like speed. As for drones, yeah, but meh, they also work better at close range where they can apply damage sooner and have less chance of getting popped, and there's still the problem of tackle. But there are still some very viable Gallente ships out there. The Domi still owns pretty well because of large neuts, and of course the Taranis because it actually can control range.

Dorian Tormak
M0N0LITH
Posted - 2011.08.06 03:13:00 - [12]
 

Gal need either active armor tank or buffer shield tank, **** a plate setup fo real

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.08.06 03:57:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Tai Meijer
Sorry should of been clearer, what i mean is why not use resists instead? that way you dont hurt your speed? Is it a combination of energy needed for tank, and buffer + natural resists are more effective? (Say against amarr - 50% em and 35%(i think) therm)?


Focusing solely on resists mean that you will be comically thin on tank.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.08.06 04:52:00 - [14]
 

gallente hybrid boats should get either a falloff / tracking bonus or a web / mwd bonus imho

Taron Hakard
Posted - 2011.08.06 08:20:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Taron Hakard on 06/08/2011 08:22:25
This game isn't balanced. Your choice between each race's ships is 90% of the time, do i want to fly a decent ship or do i want to fly a ship that's better. For the Thorax, you're better off in a Vexor, Rupture or a Moa, there isn't any point in theorycrafting untill CCP decides to rebalance the ships.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.06 12:37:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Drykor
On the other hand, if Gallente were the most mobile race, there would be no point in kiting or ranged ships anymore and Gallente would simply always win in small to medium engagements (up to a few dozen at most where you actually still have some time to travel to a target to apply dps)
Minmatar have just as high if not higher applied dps than Gallente ships, but that doesn't stop them from being the fastest race.

Dorian Tormak
M0N0LITH
Posted - 2011.08.06 13:41:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Taron Hakard
Edited by: Taron Hakard on 06/08/2011 08:22:25
This game isn't balanced. Your choice between each race's ships is 90% of the time, do i want to fly a decent ship or do i want to fly a ship that's better. For the Thorax, you're better off in a Vexor, Rupture or a Moa, there isn't any point in theorycrafting untill CCP decides to rebalance the ships.


Pff, Thorax with ECM drones will kill any Minmatar ship you scram (overheat MWD and that's a pretty easy thing to do)

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.08.06 13:59:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 06/08/2011 14:01:05
Originally by: Von Kroll
If you were around in the nano/90% web days, you remember that Gallente used to be a practically auto-"I win" button in solo engagements, because if you got pointed and webbed, you were history. The other issue is that a lot of discussions about Gallente ships seem to ignore what happens when you fit railguns instead of blasters. I know they have tighter fitting requirements and tracking suck, but you can get legitimate range out of them, and the damage is respectable since most Gal ships get damage bonuses.

Also, long time ago, Gal ships were designed to hull tank, which changes the way the fits would set up.

Last, on the Gal ships you can put a legitimate shield tank on, you get some pretty good performance, even though the tank isn't as good as a pure armor buffer/rep setup. Brutix and Hyperion both can bring a ton of firepower and decent shield tank, all while keeping decent mobility. Last, before the projectile buff, this whole issue was less of one, because projectiles (as it should be it seems to me) brought the least amount of firepower to the table. Seems as though the fastest ships with the least firepower is balanced versus the slowest ships and most firepower.






AC's were for the most part buffed to counter the OMG laser problem. Prior to the projectile buff, lasers were pretty much the iWin button.

Right now IMO everything is pretty well balanced, but hybrids need some fitting adjustments so you can actually fit neutrons on something with a tank.

Many say hybrids need a tracking buff as well, but personally I would rather see a change in the ships themselves rather than a all out hybrid buff. I'd rather see a better mid slot arrangement on Gal ships with maybe a better web bonus on the gun boats. (example look at the standard dual web blaster Harpy fit, it has the needed mids to make is a nasty blaster ship)

With better mid layouts you could have a bit more options on ship fits that could make Hybrids of today work as intended. You could come up with some interesting dual web fits or even better shield fit that either or would allow Hybrids to work much better in today's environment.

As far as range goes, TBH range should be moot in space anyway because if you launch something be it a missile or shell of some sort it should continue on til it hits something. There is no air in space to slow it down, so the artificial range limitations are kinda silly..

Granted I know it's a game so limitations are there for so called balance.

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2011.08.06 17:31:00 - [19]
 

All I'll say on this is that you don't always have to armor tank them. EVE isn't a solo game, start thinking in terms of team combat rather than solo combat.

A shield tanked gank-thorax or gank-brutix is a thing of beauty in the right gang setup.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.08.06 21:10:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: X Gallentius
Minmatar have just as high if not higher applied dps than Gallente ships, but that doesn't stop them from being the fastest race.


They both have poor applied DPS compared to lasers and missiles.

Wylee Coyote
Posted - 2011.08.06 21:25:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Wylee Coyote on 06/08/2011 21:37:18
Originally by: Mutnin
Edited by: Mutnin on 06/08/2011 14:01:05
As far as range goes, TBH range should be moot in space anyway because if you launch something be it a missile or shell of some sort it should continue on til it hits something. There is no air in space to slow it down, so the artificial range limitations are kinda silly..

Granted I know it's a game so limitations are there for so called balance.



'Speaking' of which, remind me again how/why my ship instantly deccelerates when i turn off my ab/mwd in space, which is a vacuum...



[Edit] After reading my response, i've realized it could be construed as argumentative, it is not intended as such, it was intended to agree with and show another example of your last sentence.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.08.06 21:54:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Wylee Coyote
'Speaking' of which, remind me again how/why my ship instantly deccelerates when i turn off my ab/mwd in space, which is a vacuum..


lack of realism? in MY internet spaceships? more likely than you think!

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.08.07 06:19:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: X Gallentius
Minmatar have just as high if not higher applied dps than Gallente ships, but that doesn't stop them from being the fastest race.


They both have poor applied DPS compared to lasers and missiles.


I'd even go as far as saying everything has poor applied DPS compared to missiles, even lasers to some extend. Even with the popularity of shield buffers as of late.


As for the plating question, keep in mind there is always the option to shield tank. It might seem odd, but it gives mobility as well as free lowslots for weapon upgrades.

Dual TEed Ions on the Thorax work great with just a scrambler, no need for a web really and the buffer you get from a single LSE + rigs isnt that much less compared to the 800mm plate setups. The extra speed and range you have more than makes up for the miniscule loss in buffer.

Noisrevbus
Posted - 2011.08.07 13:53:00 - [24]
 

Why do you plate blaster ships?

1. You get more ehp from buffer + resist (there's always the option to active tank them).
2. A buffer tank is always better than an active tank, if you are in a gang with logi-support.
3. You can shield tank Gallente hybrid platforms, but you never reach the 50/100k equivalents.

Blasters require short range, and Gallente are so dastardly slow!

Rokh (783) - Dual 1600mm Hype (956)
Raven (855) - Dual 1600mm Mega (931)
Eagle (1354) - 1600mm Deimos (1383)
Drake (1038) - 1600mm Myrm (990)

To put that into some context

Heat pushes a 1600mm plated Deimos to ~2km/s (capable of rushing anything barring overheating nano'ed ships of the same class; which it's not meant to catch).
A plated Loki booster pushes it another ~500m/s (~2.5km/s), turning it perfectly capable of catching even unsuspecting ranged- or nano-ships of same size/class.
The booster turn the 1600mm Deimos, even without heat (1779), as fast as Apocrypha-era LR-HACs: Artynin (1705), Beamlot (1829), built around kiting and sniping.

Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
Posted - 2011.08.08 10:43:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Mutnin
AC's were for the most part buffed to counter the OMG laser problem. Prior to the projectile buff, lasers were pretty much the iWin button.


Um... no. There was a general consensus on forums that lasers are OP, true. But there's now also apparently general consensus on forum that arty hurricanes suck, doesn't make it real.

Projectiles were perfectly fine before the boost, if anything what we have now is lightyears away from any balance. Why fly any medium ship when you could fly a hurricane?

Not to hijack the topic, plates are a very slot, cap and occasionally grid (in case of BC and above) efficient way of building a tank. Active tank requires a cap booster without exception, and to be in any way good lots of resist mods too. You can often get away with just plate, eanm and dc as a buffer tank and have decent durability, while at the same time more slots invested into an active tank will fall apart easier, often even when shot by 1 ship. As for speed and agility, these are of little use if you're dead.

Active tanks really only shine on battleships, preferably with lots of isk invested. Sometimes also stuff like triple rep myrms etc. A typical active tanked medium ship however is just an instapop waiting to happen.

Tai Meijer
Caldari
Malkutha
Posted - 2011.08.08 10:54:00 - [26]
 

Thanks for all the responses guys, i guess buffer is more effective then resists then? That's a shame, because that's ok for amarr, they can hit out even with pulses, but putting a plate on brutix or REALLY up close ship, hit's it's speed dramaticlly.


12 manbrawl Ormand
Posted - 2011.08.08 11:01:00 - [27]
 

I love my thorax, its an amazing ship if you fly it right.

This is how I fit it,

High slots:
5x Heavy Electron Blasters II

Med slots:Default
Faint Elipison Warp Scrambler
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor
Afterburner II (Cap booster against nuet fitted ships, 2nd web against Frigates/destroyers/cruisers or ships generaly faster than me that stick to close range)

Low slots:
Damage Control II
1600mm Rolled Tungsten
Energised adaptive nano
Mag stab II
Mag stab II

Rigs:
3x Trimarks

Drones:
5x hammerheads

40k ehp
593 dps

Just orbit with ab on and large ships wont hit you as your guns tear them to shreds, i dont understand why many people dislike the thorax.

To answer your question about why use the 1600 plate instead of a resist mod, is that if you don't have that plate your guna lose to much ehp just to go a bit faster so its not worth it in the long run cause your not guna live long enough for your speed to make a difference, but i have to be honest, against rail gun fitted ships that pull lots of range on me, I turn off my plate and overload me ab to go 550m/s to catch them and the railguns don't hit me at close range so my tank doesnt matter anymore.



Tai Meijer
Caldari
Malkutha
Posted - 2011.08.08 11:28:00 - [28]
 

You can offline your plate and it doesn't count towards mass???

12 manbrawl Ormand
Posted - 2011.08.08 11:50:00 - [29]
 

Yes, if you offline your plate it will lose its mass bonus and your ship will go faster.

Tai Meijer
Caldari
Malkutha
Posted - 2011.08.08 11:59:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: 12 manbrawl Ormand
Yes, if you offline your plate it will lose its mass bonus and your ship will go faster.


But where does the mass go? Where manbrawl? Where?


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