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Fredfredbug4
Posted - 2011.08.04 01:21:00 - [31]
 

Gallente and Minmatar tend to shine in smaller groups where your position on the battlefield is key. Minmatar skirmishing with their speed to hopefully web the targets so the Gallente ships can come up close and cause commotion with drones and blasters.

Caldari and Amarr do well in larger battles where distance and range isn't really a big deal as Missles don't have optimals and Amarr can insta switch ammo as necessary. They also have the tanking abilities to handle lots of DPS.

In short, cross train as necessary. Decide what you want to do in EVE. Personally, I crosstrained to all the races, not all equally as my Gallente and Caldari skills are much better than my Minmatar and Amarr skills. This way I a can adapt to any nerfs, and boost by CCP as well as in game stuff.




Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
Posted - 2011.08.04 02:05:00 - [32]
 

NO! GALLENTE DOMINATES PVP BLASTERS DO THE MOST DPS

Aznwithbeard
Minmatar
OMGROFLSTOMP
Posted - 2011.08.04 03:44:00 - [33]
 

I originally started training minmatar, as my toon is a minmatar toon and well, yea. However, gallente hulls and caldari missiles/tank/jamzors/etc are quite nice as well.

the ONLY ships where youre you can gtfo easily and still commit to a fight with the minni ships are vaga + cyna + nano cane tbh. Try to gtfo in a armor cane being web/scrammed by a binger (ok maybe not a binger, theyre terrible) myrmidon before you die isnt as easy as you people make it seem.

Nano drake = tank + range
Shield binger actually ****s shield cane.
etc. etc.

TLDR Quit being *****es, you can make any ship (pretty much) good at pvp, even if its just a niche.

Trixie Smithers
Posted - 2011.08.04 15:04:00 - [34]
 

All of the races are great.

tofucake prime
The Hatchery
Posted - 2011.08.04 15:33:00 - [35]
 

Best races are Minmatar and Drake.

TheMahdi
Posted - 2011.08.04 16:14:00 - [36]
 

Depending on the ship class and the intended roles and fleet compositions.

I'd have to say Amarr and Minmatar are pretty well matched for PvP usefulness.

But then again Drake and Tengu fleets are way more common these days, so what's so bad with Caldari then? The Tengu is the most OP ship in the game even for PvP.

Minmatar definetly do take the cake for nano and sniper HACs, but armor HAC goes to the Zealot. Granted, Angels ships are OP as **** still.

It's really a mixed bag, you can't say 1 race is superior at everything.

Name Family Name
Posted - 2011.08.04 17:17:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: TheMahdi


armor HAC goes to the Zealot.


People still use AHAC gangs?

TheMahdi
Posted - 2011.08.04 17:44:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Name Family Name
Originally by: TheMahdi


armor HAC goes to the Zealot.


People still use AHAC gangs?


Sure do.

Sun Zue
Short Bus Pole Dancers
Posted - 2011.08.04 19:48:00 - [39]
 

The way I see it all ships fit into there role nicely. All the races also have some wiggle room to get more from their ships as well. Ill use BC's as an example as I fly this ship size the most.

Amarr: Prophecy: Good tank, can be fitted w/ ether AC's or Pulse as it gets no turret damage bonus. lower cost then the Harbinger. Down side it does poor DPS and is pretty slow for its class.
Harbinger: Great DPS, nice size drone bay, fits a solid Armour tank, harder to jam then most in its class, and laser crystal damage type change is instant instead of 10 sec's. Down side's are, to slow to properly be used in nano fleets, weapons NEED cap to work, slow do to being mainly Armour.

Gallente:Brutix: Wicked close range DPS, good armor tank, nice size drone bay, not a complete lead-butt. Down side's are, DPS is CLOSE range and must ships can kite outside that range, slow in armor form, little to no tank in gank form, guns need cap.
Myrmidon: Good dps, drone boat so it leaves the high slots open to what you want in them. Active tank bonus helps in solo fights, well rounded and not to slow. Down sides are, not the greatest DPS, your tank may need lots of cap, drones can die and you will lose most if not all your DPS.

Minmatar: Cyclone: Fit right good DPS, Nice tank with active shield tank bonus, Not too small drone bay. Quicker on the battlefield then most BC's. Down side's are, very skill intensive need drone, missile and projectile skills along with many others, shallow tank, tank properly fit will need cap. small Powergrid
Hurricane: Great DPS, can fit both nano shield tank and armor tank and use both well (shield very well do to its speed), like cyclone weapons need zero cap, w/ passive armor fit req's no cap to fight. Fit with arty's its alpha is the highest of all the BC's. Down side's are, Shield fits must keep range or be webbed/scrammed and killed. armor tank is not as good as the harbinger or brutix. like the Cyclone is easy to jam(most minmatar stuff is). Skill intensive as well to make up for poor powergrid and cap.

Caldari: Ferox: It sux's all around and is only fun to fly when your bored, someone else can defend it but with the 7 other BC's to go for. This is not the one.
Drake: Probably the best Fleet BC there is, Solid shield tank with good speed (better when double nano'd) Good range with heavy's and good dps with HAM's. Weapons need no cap to fire, and is easy to train up for. Works well with logi do to the solid buffer tank and resists. When armor fit (don't yell at me it wasn't my idea) frees the mid slots and turns it into a cheap EWAR utility boat. Down side's are a small drone bay, missiles take time to it the target, the hardeners req cap to work. will have to sacrifice some tank to add tackle.

This is just work i can throw off the top of my head atm, the list is far from complete but it should give some idea as to the roles the ships have. Its balanced in game, its the skill of the polits that is not. The only way to fix that is to get better.

VaL Iscariot
Caldari
The Concilium Enterprises
Spectrum Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.05 03:18:00 - [40]
 

a short answer to OP's post is: No.

Simply put, the damage projection of Minmitar weapons is horrid and only reaches its full potential when in near blaster range.

Are Minmitar ships faster? Yes.
Can they always GTFO? No.
Does a pulse laser Harbi deal more damage at 20 km vs a 425mm auto cannon cane? Yes.
Is the Vaga a shining example of a insta-win Minmitar ship? Depends on who's flying it. A drake can drop one easy, if it gets the claws into it.

I've faced off against people with the exact same ship/fitting and won. I've also been on the flip side of that card. I've ROFLSTOMPED cane's in a Harbinger. I've been ROFLSTOMPED by canes flying a Harbinger.

What it really boils down to is: It's not the ship, its the pilot.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.05 10:34:00 - [41]
 

The biggest problem with most people's perception of Minmatar, is EFT.


They stick in their cane fit. They look at the stats. "OMG! 492 dps and 3.5+23 with barrage!!"

What that actually says, is that you'll be doing about 200-250dps applied DPS, due to falloff and tracking losses.
Your typical fleet drake will do 400+ out to 70+km.
Your typical Harbinger will do 450-or-so with a 25km optimal.

It's not all as simple as that, but people tend to forget that fighting in falloff whilst claiming "EPIC range control!" will forever be a game of diminishing returns.

Taron Hakard
Posted - 2011.08.05 11:33:00 - [42]
 

Minmatar is the best PvP race, if you'd have to choose one. But you don't have to, so who cares. This game maybe had a balancing team in 2004 and maybe then a thread like this wouldn't be a complete waste of time.

Zyress
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:05:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: RavenPaine
I fly Minnie ships a lot. And I like the slot layout on most of them. BUT....when you fit them for nano you usually are giving up some tank. If you get caught proper, your probly going to die. And ifyou make it out to range, then you rarely see yourself as "Top Damage" dealer.
In that respect, I think they are pretty balanced.


Well if you take the fastest most agile hulls in the game and then Nano them I should hope you would have to sacrifice something. You got the fastest ships in the game screw nanoing them put some dps mods in those lows.

Zyress
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:10:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
The biggest problem with most people's perception of Minmatar, is EFT.


They stick in their cane fit. They look at the stats. "OMG! 492 dps and 3.5+23 with barrage!!"

What that actually says, is that you'll be doing about 200-250dps applied DPS, due to falloff and tracking losses.
Your typical fleet drake will do 400+ out to 70+km.
Your typical Harbinger will do 450-or-so with a 25km optimal.

It's not all as simple as that, but people tend to forget that fighting in falloff whilst claiming "EPIC range control!" will forever be a game of diminishing returns.


Of course of that 400+ dps the Drake can do on eft half will be lost due to bloated exposive radius, more will be lost due to slow explosive velocity, and thats before you get to their resistances, turrets aren't the only weapon system that has exaggereated DPS on EFT

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.08.05 21:24:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 05/08/2011 21:39:20
Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 05/08/2011 21:37:42
Originally by: Zyress
...turrets aren't the only weapon system that has exaggereated DPS on EFT


Of course not. That doesn't mean that HMLs don't have the best damage projection of any weapon system in the game. Most Minmatar medium ships using autocannons have rather poor projection past scram/web range, with the exception of the Vaga.

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.08.05 21:33:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Zyress
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
The biggest problem with most people's perception of Minmatar, is EFT.


They stick in their cane fit. They look at the stats. "OMG! 492 dps and 3.5+23 with barrage!!"

What that actually says, is that you'll be doing about 200-250dps applied DPS, due to falloff and tracking losses.
Your typical fleet drake will do 400+ out to 70+km.
Your typical Harbinger will do 450-or-so with a 25km optimal.

It's not all as simple as that, but people tend to forget that fighting in falloff whilst claiming "EPIC range control!" will forever be a game of diminishing returns.


Of course of that 400+ dps the Drake can do on eft half will be lost due to bloated exposive radius, more will be lost due to slow explosive velocity, and thats before you get to their resistances, turrets aren't the only weapon system that has exaggereated DPS on EFT


With heavy missiles pretty much anything above cruiser will have pretty much full damage applied to it. You can't say that about projectiles, outside of 17km your damage will be quite a bit lower regardless of what you shoot.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.08.05 21:44:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 05/08/2011 21:44:18
Originally by: Korg Leaf
With heavy missiles pretty much anything above cruiser will have pretty much full damage applied to it. You can't say that about projectiles, outside of 17km your damage will be quite a bit lower regardless of what you shoot.


Yeah, I think a lot of dudes look at baseline stats and forget about skills like Guided Missile Precision shrinking the envelope for speed/sig-tanking HMLs.

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.08.05 22:09:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 05/08/2011 21:44:18
Originally by: Korg Leaf
With heavy missiles pretty much anything above cruiser will have pretty much full damage applied to it. You can't say that about projectiles, outside of 17km your damage will be quite a bit lower regardless of what you shoot.


Yeah, I think a lot of dudes look at baseline stats and forget about skills like Guided Missile Precision shrinking the envelope for speed/sig-tanking HMLs.


Yeah alot of people seem to forget both laser and missiles, at least on a cruiser level, have better damage projection than projectiles. Heavy Pulse Harbinger and a Heavy Missile Drake both get more DPS at range than an AC Cane

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2011.08.05 22:26:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Taram Caldar on 05/08/2011 22:31:55
In all honesty it really depends what type of PVP you are doing. Though minmatar are, by far, the best skirmishers. Stating that any one race is 'the best at pvp' is a very inaccurate and short-sighted statement.

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.08.05 22:32:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Taram Caldar
In all honesty it really depends what type of PVP you are doing. Though minmatar are, by far, the best skirmishers.



That isn't because of damage thats because they can get away with having little balls.

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2011.08.05 23:58:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Korg Leaf
Originally by: Taram Caldar
In all honesty it really depends what type of PVP you are doing. Though minmatar are, by far, the best skirmishers.



That isn't because of damage thats because they can get away with having little balls.


Skirmish has nothing to do with damage (or balls for that matter). Skirmish warfare is, by definition, harassment etc. It's not about doing tons of dmg it's about getting in, causing what damage you can, and getting out.

As opposed to siege warfare or conquering space where you're going in to slug it out and knock over the walls and take over the area. Very different types of fighting.

Dorian Tormak
M0N0LITH
Posted - 2011.08.06 03:02:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Trixie Smithers
All of the races are great.


This. Anyone who says otherwise is a conformist PIECE OF ****E NOOB

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.07 15:14:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Trixie Smithers
All of the races are great.


Yep, and some races are greater than others - IE Winmatar.


AdamusMaximus
Posted - 2011.08.07 22:49:00 - [54]
 

i pvp A LOT and i mean rly i spend 90% of my online time pvping but in my opinion winmatar even tho good arent just the best ships.

ill let u comment on this but in my opinion >

its not about the race its about how good you are at using a certain race and how smart u are when goin into an engagement.

as an example u could see someone kiting in a nanodrake or sum idiot trying to go under tracking in one....with the sig a drake has that really aint happening much so it all comes down to experience and not the ship.

Hidden Snake
Caldari
Inglorious-Basterds
Posted - 2011.08.08 12:18:00 - [55]
 

well u can have good skirmishers from any race (nanodrakes, nanozealots etc.).

It is not the ships, but pilots (and FCs) who win the fights - really.

And yeah i do some pvp time to time ....

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.08 12:21:00 - [56]
 

How many sub-cap ship categories can you think of where Minmatar aren't best or second best in their class?
Recons perhaps, and umm... ok let's see

+ Best T1 frigate.
+ Best assault frigates (tied with Gallente).
+ Best tackler inty.
- Sub-par combat inty. Still not the worst though.
- Sub-par EAF (lol).
+ Best destroyer.
+ Best interdictor.
+ Best T1 combat cruiser.
# Worst T1 EWAR cruiser.
~ Hard to judge the HACs, they all have different purposes, but the vaga and Muninn are amazing.
- So-so recons. Perfectly usable but overshadowed by Caldari and Amarr.
~ Excellent HIC, but they're all pretty even really.
- Good T3 cruiser, not the best but by no means worst.
+ One of the most useful and popular logistics in the game.
+ Best battlecruiser (Hurricane tied with Drake. Worth mentioning that the Cyclone is great.)
+ Best field command ship.
~ Fleet command ship is a fleet command ship. Certainly not the worst, by far.
+ Superb battleship lineup, all of which sees use and the Maelstrom in particular is a staple of fleet warfare.
+ Excellent marauder.
+ The best pirate faction ships in the game, by far.

So looking over this - Minmatar are either the best or close to it in just about every category. I may have missed some, but no other race is this well rounded. The few ships they have that can really be called "gimped" have plenty of alternatives that are quite the opposite.

Tai Meijer
Caldari
Malkutha
Posted - 2011.08.08 12:34:00 - [57]
 

I know everyone says minmatar require lots of Skillpoints, but having looked at the fits, you can sorta skimp on a few things can't you? Eliminate tanking skills by fitting a shield buffer tank, don't need to max out cap skills because your weapons don't use any, so surely it would be easier for you to fit into a gang, but with a little less damage, then if you were training amarr for example, with the cap etc...

Bateryjka
Posted - 2011.08.08 13:32:00 - [58]
 

Race or ships don't matter, evry pvp in eve is about who have more friends ready. And mattar advantage is that their short range weapons do good damage combined with speed they can stay at range letting them GTFO if needed.

Sphit Ker
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.08 14:13:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Taram Caldar
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 05/08/2011 22:31:55
In all honesty it really depends what type of PVP you are doing. Though minmatar are, by far, the best skirmishers. Stating that any one race is 'the best at pvp' is a very inaccurate and short-sighted statement.



Emphasis mine.

In other words, to generalize is to be wrong. Always.

Zyress
Posted - 2011.08.10 21:00:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 05/08/2011 21:39:20
Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 05/08/2011 21:37:42
Originally by: Zyress
...turrets aren't the only weapon system that has exaggereated DPS on EFT


Of course not. That doesn't mean that HMLs don't have the best damage projection of any weapon system in the game. Most Minmatar medium ships using autocannons have rather poor projection past scram/web range, with the exception of the Vaga.


And then we get into the question of usable range, how often in Pvp are you operating outside of Long Point Range?


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