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Pok Nibin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.01 16:48:00 - [1]
 

Hmmm...I've been putting this off for some time as I know it'll receive much hostility from a certain quarter, which is to be expected as you shall see. But, though they answer with vitriol, anger, ridicule and pseudo-science, it remains fact. Nyah!

I don't PvP for three reasons. 1.) Warp Scram and Webbing. 2.) capacitor draining. 3.) "Smart Bombs" and "Doomsday Devices". It's not that they scare me. It's that they're ridiculous.

The real world problem with using these methods, and believe me they've been researched in real life since the 1930s, is they affect the friendly fleet just as they affect the enemy. So there.

1. The idea you can disable an enemy's engine in a way other than putting a round solidly through it (or methods like "sugar in the gas tank") has been looked at thoroughly and discarded as fail. Electromagnetic Pulse is the most likely candidate for this job. The problem being it's an area of effect device, and the EMP generating vehicle tends to be disabled right along with the enemy's. Of course, you can shield electronics to prevent this. And, of course, so can the enemy. So, why bother? The idea that in EVE you can target a specific ship and disable ITS engine, but not your own or others around it at the same time is absurd and will be physically impossible forever (and a day.)

2. Capacitor draining, when I first saw this I was really amused. Supposing there is a device, or physical principle that allows such a thing...penetrate an "active" shield, armor (or passive shielding) a hull, bulkheads on a ship, and at last the encasement of a high-energy power supply, then suck "power" from that supply INTO the power supply of another ship (here's where tears start rolling down my cheeks) that device would be more powerful as a weapon itself than any other weapon in the EVE arsenal, and NOBODY would be using anything else. Intrusion upon the layers of defense in itself would be destructive to the atomic structure of those layers and would disintegrate them before the magic beam even reached the power supply. Ask your local physicist.

3. And of course Doomsday Devices and Smartbombs. Firstly, weapons with an untargeted area of effect are called "DUMB" weapons, not "smart." (WTFU). More money time and attention has been spent on hurling such weapons as far away from the user as possible...delivery systems, than on the weapons themselves. Ever wonder why they don't have nuclear hand grenades?

Now, ask any so-called PvP-er in this game how valuable numbers 1. and 2. are to their "strategy". Now ask how problematic the introduction of Doomsday Devices have become. A doomsday device that destroys (magically) the enemy ships, but leaves the friendlies untouched. Uh huh. I have a bridge in San Francisco for sale. It's orange.

I won't even get into the absurdity of spending your entire development time as a pilot getting a cap to be stable for an effective build, then having a ship with all cap destabilizers and energy drains pull alongside, drain all your power, then let loose five drones and sit for a few minutes while they nibble away at your helpless ship.

This is all a delusional activity. But, hey. I'm not saying get rid of it! That makes too much sense. I'm saying...BWAAA HAAA HAAAA HAAAA!!! Get outta here with that crap! It's ridiculous.

Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
Posted - 2011.08.01 16:54:00 - [2]
 

Hate to tell you this but EVE is not real Rolling Eyes

Pok Nibin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.01 16:55:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Arrs Grazznic
Hate to tell you this but EVE is not real Rolling Eyes

Thanks. Someone had to say that. I'm glad it was you.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.08.01 16:55:00 - [4]
 

It's a videogame son.

XIRUSPHERE
Gallente
Deadly Intent.
Posted - 2011.08.01 16:55:00 - [5]
 

If you are fitting for cap stability in PVP you are doing it wrong period. at best most fights will not go beyond 1-2 minutes. If you truly need cap you fit a booster which when used properly can defeat energy drains. Without those drains and neuts certain fits would also be nigh impossible to break, it's a delicate balance that functions well.

Without scrams and webs people could always make it back to gate and the chances of escaping combat would become ridiculously high and speed would once again be the king of all PVP. Smart bombs are a niche party favor when it comes to pvp, you hardly ever see them used outside of people popping pods and frigs warping between lowsec gates and it's so easy to avoid you deserve to die to it if your just warping directly between gates.

Doomsdays really are fine as is, they take long enough to charge and if someone wants to waste one on a small ship well good on them.

Stop letting fear dictate what you think the game should be and go out and experience it.

Gwenywell Shumuku
Posted - 2011.08.01 16:58:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 01/08/2011 16:59:08
Originally by: Pok Nibin

3. And of course Doomsday Devices and Smartbombs. Firstly, weapons with an untargeted area of effect are called "DUMB" weapons, not "smart." (WTFU). More money time and attention has been spent on hurling such weapons as far away from the user as possible...delivery systems, than on the weapons themselves. Ever wonder why they don't have nuclear hand grenades?



Never underestimate the MILITARY

Now, you know this is a game yes?

Pok Nibin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.01 17:00:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Lady Spank
It's a videogame son.
Glad you got your two cents worth in. Way to address the issue!

Originally by: XIRUSPHERE
If you are fitting for cap stability in PVP you are doing it wrong period. at best most fights will not go beyond 1-2 minutes. If you truly need cap you fit a booster which when used properly can defeat energy drains. Without those drains and neuts certain fits would also be nigh impossible to break, it's a delicate balance that functions well.

Without scrams and webs people could always make it back to gate and the chances of escaping combat would become ridiculously high and speed would once again be the king of all PVP. Smart bombs are a niche party favor when it comes to pvp, you hardly ever see them used outside of people popping pods and frigs warping between lowsec gates and it's so easy to avoid you deserve to die to it if your just warping directly between gates.

Doomsdays really are fine as is, they take long enough to charge and if someone wants to waste one on a small ship well good on them.

Stop letting fear dictate what you think the game should be and go out and experience it.
Spoken like a true believer

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.01 17:15:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: stoicfaux on 01/08/2011 17:16:15
In theory, Eve ships generate significant gravity wells and create "friction" with subspace. (Which is why Eve ships slow down when not thrusting or why they a max velocity.)

Thus can you use psuedo-science to justify the three weapons systems you mentioned. It's still pretty weak sauce, but Eve's physics just don't make any sense in terms of RL physics nor do they seem to be internally consistent or internally logical (i.e. no one has created a meaningful framework detailing the basic principles of Eve's physics.) As a result Eve's technology is subject to writer's fiat and makes about as much sense as Harry Potter magic.

Originally by: Pok Nibin

1.) Warp Scram and Webbing.



Scrams generate a small gravity well or otherwise create a bump in subspace close to the target. This prevents a ship from creating a warp tunnel. Either it's a physical impediment or the ship computers cannot compensate for the gravity well to enter warp.


Quote:
2.) capacitor draining.


You could say that a cap drainer creates additional friction in the target ship's gravity well, energy which can be funnel back to the aggressor in much the same way that regenerative braking works on today's electric cars.

Quote:
3.) "Smart Bombs" and "Doomsday Devices".


They're actually smart because they don't just attack everything in the space around you. Instead, they lock onto everyone else's gravity well or mass (from drones to structures to other ships) in the vicinity in order to deliver the damage. The weapon can determine which gravity/mass signatures to ignore, but ignoring a target requires active IFF (and engineering information) from the friendly. Meaning, you can't tell a smartbomb to also ignore neutrals. The neutral would have to make sensitive information available to the smart bomb user to avoid being damaged.




XIRUSPHERE
Gallente
Deadly Intent.
Posted - 2011.08.01 17:20:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Pok Nibin
Originally by: Lady Spank
It's a videogame son.
Glad you got your two cents worth in. Way to address the issue!

Originally by: XIRUSPHERE
If you are fitting for cap stability in PVP you are doing it wrong period. at best most fights will not go beyond 1-2 minutes. If you truly need cap you fit a booster which when used properly can defeat energy drains. Without those drains and neuts certain fits would also be nigh impossible to break, it's a delicate balance that functions well.

Without scrams and webs people could always make it back to gate and the chances of escaping combat would become ridiculously high and speed would once again be the king of all PVP. Smart bombs are a niche party favor when it comes to pvp, you hardly ever see them used outside of people popping pods and frigs warping between lowsec gates and it's so easy to avoid you deserve to die to it if your just warping directly between gates.

Doomsdays really are fine as is, they take long enough to charge and if someone wants to waste one on a small ship well good on them.

Stop letting fear dictate what you think the game should be and go out and experience it.
Spoken like a true believer


A true believer of what? Understanding the core combat mechanics? Understanding the nature of diminishing returns and the strengths and weaknesses of particular strategy?

You don't need all level 5's to be successful at combat, and as far as core fitting and ship skills go those are in no way unreasonable investments but they are not absolute nor do they require complete dedication. Specialization can get you places very fast. I chose the long haul and im a jack of all trades and a master of nothing in particular. What it gained for me is the ability to shift my strategy radically from engagement to engagement.

Triskie
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2011.08.01 17:23:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Triskie on 01/08/2011 17:23:53
If you cant warp jam someone then there would be no way of actually destroying another's ship. If you remove the capacitor mechanic you break not only a huge array of skills but render a fair few ships obsolete. You offer no alternative to how you would remove or change these things without breaking the whole game.

If its a lack of scientific realism that's bothering you then surely it must bother you as much in PVP as it does in PVE and if that's the case then why are you still playing.

So what is the point to this post? If its to state how eve's is utterly unscientific then im afraid its not news to anyone. The PVP is enjoyed by many though and to massively change it to conform to what is scientifically possible would probably make the PVP less enjoyable, not more.

Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.08.01 17:23:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Lady Spank
It's a videogame son.
I am way to tired to read this and post something worth while. But I liked this. +5 interwabz Lady Spank.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.08.01 17:24:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Pok Nibin
Originally by: Lady Spank
It's a videogame son.
Glad you got your two cents worth in. Way to address the issue!

Lets address the issues:

1. You are basing your reasons 1, 2 & 3 for not ~PVPing~ on the real world believability of mechanics in a futuristic spaceship videogame. Mechanics which are more or less balanced.

2. You continue to talk about training for cap stability and some other bile that clearly indicates you have no idea what you are talking about.

3. I rarely see much from you except crapping up other peoples threads or crying troll so I don't see why I should do more than raise the most salient point and leave it at that.

4. No one cares why a scared, clueless carebear won't PVP. There are many cowards just like you that believe they know what's best for an element of the game they have no experience of.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.08.01 17:34:00 - [13]
 

The OP couldn't watch Star Trek either, because the transporter is impossible in RL.

Sentient Blade
Posted - 2011.08.01 17:50:00 - [14]
 

1 and 3 I can live with quite easily. The NOS / Neut however in sub-cap warfare is too overpowered IMO.

CCP Zymurgist


Gallente
C C P
Posted - 2011.08.01 19:04:00 - [15]
 

Moved from General Discussion.

Pok Nibin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.01 20:24:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Pok Nibin on 01/08/2011 20:25:58

Originally by: Lady Spank
Originally by: Pok Nibin
Originally by: Lady Spank
It's a videogame son.
Glad you got your two cents worth in. Way to address the issue!

Lets address the issues:

1. You are basing your reasons 1, 2 & 3 for not ~PVPing~ on the real world believability of mechanics in a futuristic spaceship videogame. Mechanics which are more or less balanced.

2. You continue to talk about training for cap stability and some other bile that clearly indicates you have no idea what you are talking about.

3. I rarely see much from you except crapping up other peoples threads or crying troll so I don't see why I should do more than raise the most salient point and leave it at that.

4. No one cares why a scared, clueless carebear won't PVP. There are many cowards just like you that believe they know what's best for an element of the game they have no experience of.
Oh. You are so vicious. I'm almost inclined to ask what mascara you wear. On the one hand you say it's just a game, then on the other you infer it might be some source of terror! (eek!) The day you can declare what "no one" cares about is the day you'll show a modicum of fashion sense...not holding my breath on either. But, really, if you don't care why a coward like me does anything, why do you bother to answer this post, but for the already diagnoZed condition you have - diarrhea of the keyboard? (Those are rhetorical questions. No need in showing more of your hindquarters in responding.)

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.01 21:08:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Andski on 01/08/2011 21:08:41
Originally by: Pok Nibin
words


you're aware that doomsdays aren't area of effect weapons anymore, right? ;p

smartbombs are rarely used in fleet combat, stealth bombers are much more useful.

nosferatus have their uses, but neutralizers are much more common. neuts drain a lot more, but they also decimate your capacitor, not just the guy you're neuting.

oh and tackle (warp disruption/webbing) is necessary in fleet combat - holy ****, do you think fleet engagements would ever go anywhere if everyone was just warping off when they were targeted?

Pok Nibin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.01 21:43:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Andski
Edited by: Andski on 01/08/2011 21:08:41
Originally by: Pok Nibin
words

oh and tackle (warp disruption/webbing) is necessary in fleet combat - holy ****, do you think fleet engagements would ever go anywhere if everyone was just warping off when they were targeted?
If someone is there to fight, why not stay and fight? If someone is being ambushed (which is more often the case) it would make ambush more of an iffy proposition than a shooting fish in a barrel affair, which I'm sure GoonWhatever prefers.

XIRUSPHERE
Gallente
Deadly Intent.
Posted - 2011.08.01 21:55:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Pok Nibin
Originally by: Andski
Edited by: Andski on 01/08/2011 21:08:41
Originally by: Pok Nibin
words

oh and tackle (warp disruption/webbing) is necessary in fleet combat - holy ****, do you think fleet engagements would ever go anywhere if everyone was just warping off when they were targeted?
If someone is there to fight, why not stay and fight? If someone is being ambushed (which is more often the case) it would make ambush more of an iffy proposition than a shooting fish in a barrel affair, which I'm sure GoonWhatever prefers.



Just give it up already, you have already demonstrated that you operate under a total disconnect and furthermore have no desire to gain an understanding of how combat works in this game. Keep your head in the sand and take the derp elsewhere.

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.02 00:25:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Pok Nibin
Originally by: Andski
Edited by: Andski on 01/08/2011 21:08:41
Originally by: Pok Nibin
words

oh and tackle (warp disruption/webbing) is necessary in fleet combat - holy ****, do you think fleet engagements would ever go anywhere if everyone was just warping off when they were targeted?
If someone is there to fight, why not stay and fight? If someone is being ambushed (which is more often the case) it would make ambush more of an iffy proposition than a shooting fish in a barrel affair, which I'm sure GoonWhatever prefers.


Do you really think that any side of an engagement is going to stick around if they're losing numbers fast? Every PvP-oriented entity wants a one-sided engagement because it minimizes their losses.

You really have no idea how PvP combat works in EVE. Either join a nullsec alliance and learn about it, or stick to shooting NPCs.

Pok Nibin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.02 03:47:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Pok Nibin on 02/08/2011 03:47:26
Originally by: XIRUSPHERE
Originally by: Pok Nibin
Originally by: Andski
Edited by: Andski on 01/08/2011 21:08:41
Originally by: Pok Nibin
words

oh and tackle (warp disruption/webbing) is necessary in fleet combat - holy ****, do you think fleet engagements would ever go anywhere if everyone was just warping off when they were targeted?
If someone is there to fight, why not stay and fight? If someone is being ambushed (which is more often the case) it would make ambush more of an iffy proposition than a shooting fish in a barrel affair, which I'm sure GoonWhatever prefers.



Just give it up already, you have already demonstrated that you operate under a total disconnect and furthermore have no desire to gain an understanding of how combat works in this game. Keep your head in the sand and take the derp elsewhere.
Oh. Don't be ridiculous. It's precisely how PvP works in this game that's so lame. derp. You explain it, you defend it. You posture it as some form of expression of genius to master and it's still lame. double derp.

CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.02 10:25:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Elite EVE PVPers
But, how would we kill people if they were allowed to, uhhh . . . move . . . and fight back?


Sacred cow, indeed.

I agree that if webbing and interdiction were removed or drastically changed in EVE Online, it would have an enormous effect on how the game was played. Fleet engagements would become a much different thing. Solo PVP would be everywhere, but with a much different dynamic. Mission runners, miners, explorers, etc. would run rampant through previously inaccessible space. The whole order of the EVE world would be turned on its head. And, this is evidence of a very simple, undeniable fact: Webbing and interdiction are overpowered.

The emperor has no clothes!

Triskie
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2011.08.02 13:23:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: CanIPost Please
Originally by: Elite EVE PVPers
But, how would we kill people if they were allowed to, uhhh . . . move . . . and fight back?


Sacred cow, indeed.

I agree that if webbing and interdiction were removed or drastically changed in EVE Online, it would have an enormous effect on how the game was played. Fleet engagements would become a much different thing. Solo PVP would be everywhere, but with a much different dynamic. Mission runners, miners, explorers, etc. would run rampant through previously inaccessible space. The whole order of the EVE world would be turned on its head. And, this is evidence of a very simple, undeniable fact: Webbing and interdiction are overpowered.

The emperor has no clothes!


Or you could just remove PVP altogether. Same effect really as no one will be able to blow anyone's ship up. Could you both post with your mains by the way. So we can see how much PVP experience you guys actually have because, and i maybe wrong, you both sound utterly ignorant on the topic.

CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.02 13:47:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Triskie
Or you could just remove PVP altogether. Same effect really as no one will be able to blow anyone's ship up. Could you both post with your mains by the way. So we can see how much PVP experience you guys actually have because, and i maybe wrong, you both sound utterly ignorant on the topic.


What you mean to say is that you, yourself, are too stupid to imagine any way of destroying someone's ship without first trapping them in the engagement with your "Fight Me!" button, which is ironic, because you play a game that distinguishes itself from other games by emphasizing creative, emergent gameplay. Go figure.

As for sounding ignorant, well, it may take a masters degree to create EVE Online, but it sure doesn't take a Ph.D. to play it well. Instead of asking who we are or what our PVP "credentials" are, why don't you ask yourself what it is we've said that sounds ignorant to you. I bet you can't come up with an answer.

BTW, just because nobody got blown up in an engagement doesn't mean there wasn't a very clear winner.

GavinCapacitor
Posted - 2011.08.02 14:21:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Pok Nibin
Originally by: Lady Spank
It's a videogame son.
Glad you got your two cents worth in. Way to address the issue!


This implies there is an issue, which there is not. Its a videogame. Then again this is a troll thread, so...

Triskie
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2011.08.02 16:19:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Triskie on 02/08/2011 19:55:32
Still posting with an alt i see :)

Originally by: CanIPost Please
What you mean to say is that you, yourself, are too stupid to imagine any way of destroying someone's ship without first trapping them in the engagement with your "Fight Me!" button, which is ironic, because you play a game that distinguishes itself from other games by emphasizing creative, emergent gameplay. Go figure.


Please enlighten us on how to engage a fight without bubbles or warp jammers and still able to still blow up someone ship that does not involve overwhelming numbers to alpha the EHP. You cant though can you? That is because you you have no idea what you are talking about. Hence, you are ignorant on this matter and as if we didnt need further proof of this glaring fact...

Originally by: CanIPost Please
BTW, just because nobody got blown up in an engagement doesn't mean there wasn't a very clear winner.


Yes you do. Just try to think how fleet engagements would work without the means to warp disrupt someone. Ships would just fly off once they are low on EHP. There would be no way to effectively win sov wars as no one would ever die. Without ships blowing up production would grind to an almost stop as there would be no reason to produce anything any numbers.

Yes, utterly ignorant.. or a troll. Until you post with your main ill just have to assume the latter.


Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.02 17:46:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Triskie
Still posting with an alt i see :)

Originally by: CanIPost Please
What you mean to say is that you, yourself, are too stupid to imagine any way of destroying someone's ship without first trapping them in the engagement with your "Fight Me!" button, which is ironic, because you play a game that distinguishes itself from other games by emphasizing creative, emergent gameplay. Go figure.


Please enlighten us on how to engage a fight without bubbles or warp jammers and still able to still blow up someone ship that does not involve overwhelming numbers to alpha the EHP. You cant though can you? That is because you you have no idea what you are talking about. Hence, you are ignorant on this matter and as if we didnt need further proof of this glaring fact...


<$FACTION_FRIGATE | $T2_FRIGATE> vs <noobship | $T1_FRIGATE>. Laughing

and/or bumping something slow (industrial, mining barge, etc) so it can't warp off.

TBH, points and webs make things VASTLY easier. Webs seem to be optional if you can stay within point range fairly easily... also, bring back 90% websTwisted Evil

Originally by: Triskie

...as there would be no reason to produce anything any numbers.



See: (T1) Laser Crystals, since the only way you need more is if your ship goes boom...

CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.02 23:05:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Triskie
Still posting with an alt i see :)


I biomassed Mason Moreau. That was the main character on this account.

Originally by: Triskie
Please enlighten us on how to engage a fight without bubbles or wa . . .


Here's a thought: Shoot at eachother. You gave one tactic for killing an unpointed opponent before they warp out. Think hard. I'll bet you come up with a few more.

I don't think they warp scramble their opponents in massive fleet fights. I've never been in one, so I could be wrong, but I'd think they all just shoot at the same target and it dies before it can react effectively, unless it's a Titan. Have you considered the possibility, though, that not everyone is a ***** like you and doesn't turn tail and run when their tank reaches x% of damage? No guts, no glory, they say.

As for bubbles (why do I bother?) . . . bubbles can warp scramble an infinite number of people infinitely. Fair?

Originally by: Triskie
Yes you do. Just try to think how fleet engagements would work [if people were allowed to fly their space ship through space in this flying-internet-spaceships-through-space game.]


If you run away because not doing so will mean defeat, it's called being "routed". The term is actually somewhat synonymous with being humiliated.
And, if there were that many ships because no one was dying in combat, then ships would become worth less and people would have less incentive to run like a coward in every engagement, thus would put more ships and more expensive ships at risk and at more risk, thus more of them would blow up. Things have a way of adjusting themselves.

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2011.08.02 23:25:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Pok Nibin
I don't PvP for three reasons. 1.) I could lose. 2.) I could lose. 3.) I could lose.



fyp


 

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