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Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2011.07.30 18:29:00 - [1]
 

By itself the Hurricane obsoletes almost the entire T1 cruiser lineup. Its Fast, High DPS, and has great utility in the form of its 2 medium neuts. It gets really rediculous when a Rapid Deployment gangmod is stuck on the Hurricane. A standard cruiser will be slower with less DPS, Tank and Utility.

To begin to compete with a cane a cruiser has to pick one attribute to pimp out at the expense of all others. It will then outpreform the Cane at one thing while carrying a great deal less versatility and utility.

Then for tank and gank purposes the other BC take the bloody peices the Cane left behind and they stomp them under their heels. The Caracal has somewhere around half the damage of the drake and about 1/3 the tank. Yeah the Caracal is a bit faster, but there is only a small number of scenarios where a Caracal could get away and a Drake couldn't. All the while the Drake has the same tracking. And both ships' prices can be summed up as cheap.

After the casualties have been removed the only T1 cruiser worth looking at is the Blackbird.

There should be some serious ambiguity to whether a teir 1 BC or Cruiser was the right choice for a given endevour.

Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.30 19:17:00 - [2]
 

One word:
Stabber

Nunchuck Norris
Posted - 2011.07.30 19:51:00 - [3]
 

it costs 6 to 8 times more than any t1 cruiser ... for those isk , you bet it should surpass the cruisers Rolling Eyes

Dracnys
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.30 20:07:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Nunchuck Norris
it costs 6 to 8 times more than any t1 cruiser ... for those isk , you bet it should surpass the cruisers Rolling Eyes


Well that's just the hull costs. If you consider insurance both battlecruiser and cruiser hulls are still different in price but overall very cheap. Now if you fit a t1 cruiser and a t1 BC with t2 mods and t1 rigs the price different is very small. And honestly where talking about so little money here, very few people decide to go for inferior cruisers because of a few million ISK. It feels very wrong that an entire line of ships is basically made useless due to very strong BCs.

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.07.30 20:19:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 30/07/2011 20:21:44
Originally by: Dracnys
Now if you fit a t1 cruiser and a t1 BC with t2 mods and t1 rigs the price different is very small. And honestly where talking about so little money here, very few people decide to go for inferior cruisers because of a few million ISK. It feels very wrong that an entire line of ships is basically made useless due to very strong BCs.



The low tier battlecruiser with fittings is still about twice as expensive as the highest tier cruiser hull with fittings.

That is completely besides the point though, what people typically fail to realize with arguments as in the OP is the problem with the low tier cruiser hulls.

Rupture over Hurricane/Cyclone does not paint a proper picture of the situation; while there are very good reasons to go with Rupture over the BCs, the question that should be asked is Scythe/Bellicose/Stabber/Rupture or Cyclone/Hurricane.

The real issue is Scythe/Bellicose/Stabber being garbage, enabling them to actually fill their roles properly makes the whole argument moot. Again, the problem (with minmatar hulls, but the same goes for the other races) is that the only viable cruiser choice is the direct combat variant.

Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.07.30 20:21:00 - [6]
 

God damit, stop with the this ship cost more so it should be better.

We learned that with supercapitals, this way of thinking don't (DON'T) work.

Nex apparatu5
Posted - 2011.07.30 20:21:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Nex apparatu5 on 30/07/2011 20:22:53
So you're saying a ship type that is designed to be better than a cruiser is better than a cruiser?

This is unacceptable!


Also

Originally by: Nin Kimrov
God damit, stop with the this ship cost more so it should be better.

We learned that with supercapitals, this way of thinking don't (DON'T) work.


I like how you emphasized your terrible English skills.

Nunchuck Norris
Posted - 2011.07.30 20:25:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Nin Kimrov
God damit, stop with the this ship cost more so it should be better.

We learned that with supercapitals, this way of thinking don't (DON'T) work.


ok then look at the class , battle cruisers are supposed to be in between cruiser and BS , with cruiser sized weapons and BS tank . Battlecruisers are supposed to be better than cruisers in all aspects except mobility / sig radius .

Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.07.30 20:49:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Nin Kimrov on 30/07/2011 20:55:27
Edited by: Nin Kimrov on 30/07/2011 20:55:07
Edited by: Nin Kimrov on 30/07/2011 20:50:26
Then what the role of cruisers in the world of eve online?

Battlecruiser don't have any specific roles. They take all the roles of the cruisers and they do this greatly. It's why everyone fly BC.

If destroyers had no penality and the speed of a frigate, would peoples fly frigates?


Thank you for commenting my english skills, I try to get better at it every days. Now write a bit of canadian french.

Fredfredbug4
Posted - 2011.07.30 21:35:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Fredfredbug4 on 30/07/2011 21:35:55
Cruisers are very viable. Cruisers are designed to have good firepower but still have the ability to engage frigates. The Minmatar (speed) and Gallente (drones) are very good at this.

Battlecruisers on the other hand bridge the gap between cruisers and battleships. They are supposed to have a decent speed yet have the ability to dish out and take damage. However battlecruisers are easily defeated once a frigate gets a web on them. Which is why the minmatar BCs are very popular. They can carry more than 5 drones, and can fit launchers and nuets along with their guns.

Basically, battlecruisers are jacks of all trades yet masters of none.

When you want to hunt frigates you can use a cruiser.
When you want to deal heavy damage, you can use a battleship
When you want to do a little bit of both you use a battlecruiser.




Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.07.30 21:55:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Nin Kimrov on 30/07/2011 21:56:00
Battlecruisers are versatile, they can be fitted to have the speed of a cruiser (and seriously, cruiser don't have that much of a speed advantage that can be used), they can be fitted to counter frigate (medium neuts and drones, smaller mediums weapons), some can be fitted to tank like a battleship or to damage like a battleship. Let's not forget that they can also be a mix of those. I believe there is not enough negative elements that affect battlecruisers.

A cruiser has difficulty to get a decent fit on, not that good vs frigate (destroyers does it better), don't move that fast (or don't have the cap to substain it). A cruiser is only a filler till you can get in a tier 2 bc (specially hurricane and drake).

Removing the tiers systems with a rework of the unused frigates and cruisers, a nerf of at least tier 2 bc would increase alot of variety in the ships used and I believe would be better for EvE online.

Nex apparatu5
Posted - 2011.07.30 22:11:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Nin Kimrov

Thank you for commenting my english skills, I try to get better at it every days. Now write a bit of canadian french.

If this was a board where the main language was Canadian French, then sure.


Originally by: Nin Kimrov

Removing the tiers systems with a rework of the unused frigates and cruisers, a nerf of at least tier 2 bc would increase alot of variety in the ships used and I believe would be better for EvE online.


BCs don't need a nerf, T1 cruisers (and frigates) would need a buff. Nerfing them would just reduce the amount of ships that were viable to fly.

s0lar pulse
Posted - 2011.07.30 22:35:00 - [13]
 

Did not see this coming...

Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.07.30 22:39:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Nex apparatu5
Originally by: Nin Kimrov

Thank you for commenting my english skills, I try to get better at it every days. Now write a bit of canadian french.

If this was a board where the main language was Canadian French, then sure.


Originally by: Nin Kimrov

Removing the tiers systems with a rework of the unused frigates and cruisers, a nerf of at least tier 2 bc would increase alot of variety in the ships used and I believe would be better for EvE online.


BCs don't need a nerf, T1 cruisers (and frigates) would need a buff. Nerfing them would just reduce the amount of ships that were viable to fly.



Would the result be the same, would cruisers be used? Would it make in sort that Battlecruiser distinguish in term of role vs the cruisers? I speak about nerf because I believe it would be the easiest way for CCP to do it. (not like they would do..) I believe that the battlecruiser class should be completly reviewed and specialized in certain roles. By specializing, they would have weakness. Finally I believe that it would modify the current meta game of eve.

grazer gin
Posted - 2011.07.30 22:49:00 - [15]
 

Its called a BATTLECRUISER for a reason

Please cry more and DO please let the door hit you on the way out

Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.07.30 23:11:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: grazer gin
Its called a BATTLECRUISER for a reason

Please cry more and DO please let the door hit you on the way out

You would be one of the guys that would love to see supercapitals buffed.

Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
The Eleusinian Mystery Cult
Posted - 2011.07.31 01:08:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Fredfredbug4

Basically, battlecruisers are jacks of all trades yet masters of none.

When you want to hunt frigates you can use a cruiser.
When you want to deal heavy damage, you can use a battleship
When you want to do a little bit of both you use a battlecruiser.




Except battlecruisers are every bit as good at killing frigates as cruisers are. Let's face it: T1 cruisers are more or less useless.

Fredfredbug4
Posted - 2011.07.31 01:44:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov


Except battlecruisers are every bit as good at killing frigates as cruisers are. Let's face it: T1 cruisers are more or less useless.


Not really. Frigates are fast. Even a hurricane would have trouble catching up with a nano frigate.

This is why cruisers still have a niche, many are fast enough to catch the frigates, they aren't as fast as them but they actually have a change of getting into web range.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2011.07.31 05:46:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Nex apparatu5

BCs don't need a nerf, T1 cruisers (and frigates) would need a buff. Nerfing them would just reduce the amount of ships that were viable to fly.



I'd agree with that.

In fact, I think destroyers should have current cruisers HP, and cruisers be half-way HP-wise between current cruisers and BCs.

Magnus Veyr
Posted - 2011.07.31 08:06:00 - [20]
 

No, no need to buff cruisers and no need to nerf BCs as a whole. The only thing that needs to be addressed is the main tier 2 BCs, those are just too good. Thing is ofcourse that proposing a nerf will inevitably invoke the wrath of the "omg, I want MORE STUFZ" crowd, especially when it's about something as universally used as the tier 2 BCs.

And that really is the point; they're too good, too well rounded, too OP compared to cruisers and some of the HACS. They're too logical a choice atm. If those get a slight nerf (myrm doesn't need any really, and the harb's OPness doesn't come from the hull, it's scorch) then all of a sudden everything falls into place again.

Cruisers and ships based on those hulls become more viable and battleships have more of a place in non-blobfest pvp.

Hestia Mar
Posted - 2011.07.31 08:49:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Nunchuck Norris
Originally by: Nin Kimrov
God damit, stop with the this ship cost more so it should be better.

We learned that with supercapitals, this way of thinking don't (DON'T) work.


ok then look at the class , battle cruisers are supposed to be in between cruiser and BS , with cruiser sized weapons and BS tank . Battlecruisers are supposed to be better than cruisers in all aspects except mobility / sig radius .


This is the wrong way round - in real life the Royal Navy BC's such as HMS Hood had BS type weapons but heavy cruiser tank - their whole reason for existence was to have the speed to catch cruisers and the weapons to gank them (not sure Lord Fisher would have used the words gank and tank when he designed them in the early 1900's, but you get the idea).

So in assuming that EVE's devs based their BC's on historical fact, its correct that a cruiser would have very little chance against a BC.

Of course when a BC goes toe to toe with a BS, then their tank wasn't sufficient - i.e. Hood vs Bismark

History lesson over.

H

Magnus Veyr
Posted - 2011.07.31 08:57:00 - [22]
 

The problems cruisers face is that BC's have "more of everything" while not suffering the normal tracking/sig radius issues bigger ship types have. A frigate can get under the guns of a cruiser, cruisers vs Bs same thing. But a cruiser can't really get under the guns of a BC (assuming same strategy) as their weapons have the same tracking and explosion radius/velocity.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.07.31 11:22:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Magnus Veyr
The problems cruisers face is that BC's have "more of everything" while not suffering the normal tracking/sig radius issues bigger ship types have. A frigate can get under the guns of a cruiser, cruisers vs Bs same thing. But a cruiser can't really get under the guns of a BC (assuming same strategy) as their weapons have the same tracking and explosion radius/velocity.


Yeah, and often better tracking and superior range, because of the extra slots for TEs.

Valea Silpha
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.07.31 11:25:00 - [24]
 

Battlecruisers are very good, versatile ships for sure. Tech 1 cruisers are pretty poor by comparison, but they are pretty poor by comparison to EVERYTHING. They lack tank, dps and speed. Oh they can move fast enough, but they don't have REAL speed like frigates.

Battlecruisers by conrtast DO have respectable dps and tank.

Given that the whole point of battlecruisers is to be cruisers but more so, and given that they are physically bigger and have more of the same guns, there is no sane way that you could cut their dps and tank. There's also no sane way to make cruisers competitive with them.


The tech 1 progessions is pretty liner. The bigger the ship, the more daamage and the less speed. And that means that some ships in eve have to suck. Sorry.

Brutorr
Posted - 2011.07.31 11:41:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Brutorr on 31/07/2011 11:43:08
The issue is that Battlecruisers are supposed to beat cruisers but due to larger sig are supposed to be more vunerable to battleship weapons. However as mentioned earlier the tier system is pretty redundant now and should be got rid of. There is as much of a problem between tier 1 and tier 2 BCs in that the extra mod slot and stats just makes tier 2 much better.

Each ship can then be tweaked with the extra mod slots getting rid of the tier system would bring to the lower tiers so that they can fufill their specialist roles better. Battlecruisers should probably get their sigs increased even more than they are now as well.

It should be noted that there are more cruisers that are viable in today's Eve than just the Blackbird, but it is generally the e-war ones or the ones that are set up to really push their specialised role to the limit, or differ greatly from the BCs for their race. Quick run-down of the cruisers viability (excluding cost for a second, cost only really comes into play if you cheap fit the cruiser, once you T2 fit it the cost difference is only double rather than a BC costing 6 or 7 times a cruiser):-

Augoror - bait only
Arbitrator - viable for TDs and drone usage
Omen - might as well fly a Harbinger
Maller - might as well fly a Harbinger

Osprey - miners or shield repair only, not combat viable.
Blackbird - viable
Caracal - might as well fly a Drake
Moa - hybrids currently suck anyway, but a Ferox is a better shout

Exequoror - not viable, apart from poor man/noob logi.
Celestis - not viable, would be if damps were buffed again
Vexor - might as well fly a myrmidon
Thorax - might as well fly a shield gank Brutix

Scythe - mining only, not combat viable.
Bellicose - not combat viable, unless in niche supporting torp ships.
Stabber - viable due to speed niche.
Rupture - might as well fly a Hurricane.

Now thats not to say the ships never get flown, I can fly all race ships and T2 fit 3/4 of them, and I frequently go out in a glass cannon Omen, plated Ruppy, Vexor or Moa (the lower tiers aren't even fun to fly for giggles they are that inferior) but only for the fun aspect given by it being more of a challenge, and so people are more likely to engage.

TaluxA
Posted - 2011.07.31 12:02:00 - [26]
 

The way it is now a cane with a single nano has similar speed, much more dps, better tracking, better range, twice as much tank and better ewar than almost all the t1 cruisers. The same goes for all the tier 2 battlecruisers - they're just plain better in almost every regard.

I'd like to see t1 cruisers have a speed buff at least.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.07.31 12:24:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 31/07/2011 12:25:58
Originally by: Brutorr
It should be noted that there are more cruisers that are viable in today's Eve than just the Blackbird, but it is generally the e-war ones


To be honest, the only "viable" ewar cruiser is the Blackbird. The Arbitrator, Bellicose and Celestis are all arguably inferior as TD, painter and RSD platforms to a HM Drake fit with MWD and five ewar mods. It has more ewar mods (albeit of lesser power), superior EHP even with just rigs and a DC and far superior supporting DPS with HMLs and drones.

Now, ewar is supposed to be a Caldari speciality - it even says it in the Drake's description! - but this is taking it a bit too far I think.

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.07.31 14:22:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Brutorr
Edited by: Brutorr on 31/07/2011 11:43:08
The issue is that Battlecruisers are supposed to beat cruisers but due to larger sig are supposed to be more vunerable to battleship weapons. However as mentioned earlier the tier system is pretty redundant now and should be got rid of. There is as much of a problem between tier 1 and tier 2 BCs in that the extra mod slot and stats just makes tier 2 much better.

Each ship can then be tweaked with the extra mod slots getting rid of the tier system would bring to the lower tiers so that they can fufill their specialist roles better. Battlecruisers should probably get their sigs increased even more than they are now as well.

It should be noted that there are more cruisers that are viable in today's Eve than just the Blackbird, but it is generally the e-war ones or the ones that are set up to really push their specialised role to the limit, or differ greatly from the BCs for their race. Quick run-down of the cruisers viability (excluding cost for a second, cost only really comes into play if you cheap fit the cruiser, once you T2 fit it the cost difference is only double rather than a BC costing 6 or 7 times a cruiser):-

Augoror - bait only
Arbitrator - viable for TDs and drone usage
Omen - might as well fly a Harbinger
Maller - might as well fly a Harbinger

Osprey - miners or shield repair only, not combat viable.
Blackbird - viable
Caracal - might as well fly a Drake
Moa - hybrids currently suck anyway, but a Ferox is a better shout

Exequoror - not viable, apart from poor man/noob logi.
Celestis - not viable, would be if damps were buffed again
Vexor - might as well fly a myrmidon
Thorax - might as well fly a shield gank Brutix

Scythe - mining only, not combat viable.
Bellicose - not combat viable, unless in niche supporting torp ships.
Stabber - viable due to speed niche.
Rupture - might as well fly a Hurricane.

Now thats not to say the ships never get flown, I can fly all race ships and T2 fit 3/4 of them, and I frequently go out in a glass cannon Omen, plated Ruppy, Vexor or Moa (the lower tiers aren't even fun to fly for giggles they are that inferior) but only for the fun aspect given by it being more of a challenge, and so people are more likely to engage.



Can't say I disagree with most of your points. Sadly the only use for most t1 cruisers is in PVE and gimmick fleets for PVP. Now there is one thing the t1 cruisers have over their BC bretheren. They get fights. Plain and simple. Gangs will think twice before engaging a pile of drakes, show up in some Blaster fit Moa's though and that fleet will get fights. It's up to people to come up with way's to make those ships viable and even the lowly Moa can be made to melt stuff. Sure it takes more work and comedy builds but it still can be fun and also be done on the cheap. All that said I'd love to see more t1 cruisers be viable for solo PVP and really just get a little love to make them not the WORST ships in the game by and large.

Jekyl Eraser
Posted - 2011.07.31 15:09:00 - [29]
 

Cruisers lack speed(or signature) to speedtank, lack range to outrange and lack tank to outtank. All they have is low cost which it's not after fitting.

Cruisers need to excell at one aspect to be viable.

If they had more range they could be part of sniper BC/HAC gangs or they could fight solo against BC in certain situations.

If they had more speed they could speedtank BS. Which is questionable in a fleet.

More tank isn't going to happen.

If they are buffed the hull cost need to be upped to 10mil

Large Collidable Object
morons.
Posted - 2011.07.31 15:35:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Large Collidable Object on 31/07/2011 15:36:53
Remove some Tier2 BCs highslots, give them a fitting bonus on large turrets, so they maintain the same overall DPS.

There: High DPS, crappy tracking and bad sig resolution on guns would mean they'd have more trouble hitting cruisers whilst being equally effective vs. BS.

That would give T1 cruisers their niche back, since the current problem is that BCs and Cruisers currently fill the same role, with BCs just costing a handfull of isk and a couple of days skilltime more, but being superior in every aspect.


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