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Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.07.29 22:41:00 - [31]
 

Sure, a band aid would fix those tier 1 BC, but seriously it would be wasted work. I really think it's time to look at how each ships has a place in EvE.
And no, I don't beleive BC have a role already in place, they currently are the jack of all trades, master of ...., well there currently missing a word there in term of balance.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.07.30 01:10:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Nin Kimrov
And no, I don't beleive BC have a role already in place, they currently are the jack of all trades, master of ...., well there currently missing a word there in term of balance.


Good enough to be effective, cheap enough to be basically disposable, sounds like a good role in a PvP game to me.

Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.07.30 01:28:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Nin Kimrov
And no, I don't beleive BC have a role already in place, they currently are the jack of all trades, master of ...., well there currently missing a word there in term of balance.


Good enough to be effective, cheap enough to be basically disposable, sounds like a good role in a PvP game to me.


Certainly, its why everyone only fly this and completly obsolete all the cruisers we have.

Tiny Mongo
Posted - 2011.07.30 16:48:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Tiny Mongo on 30/07/2011 16:59:09
my .02 isk:

Note: I'm not going to speak to Amarr ships since I really haven't played them.

Cane/Drake/Myrm are ok - they are relatively well balanced amongst each other

Ferox/Brutix: These ships need some serious love - Brutix does a ton of dps unfortunately it has to be w/in 5k to do it. The Ferox well... tickling people to death doesn't work that well and the drake has similar force projection when HM fit. For these it should be fix hybrid then fix them - under the assumption that the hybrid philosophy may be changing.

Cyclone: This ship is actually alright it could really use another mid slot (and pg/cpu to match) so that it can fit a legitimate active shield tank (wishful thinking). It can fit a beastly active tank for your small gang raids. It may be the only BC where I would consider choosing it over the tier 2 counterpart.

Edit: cruisers seem more obsoleted by AF's - why use a cruiser when you can fly a faster smaller more agile ship that does the similar dps. If you come upon a larger gang you are more likely to live in the AF than the cruiser. You also have more utility mids to fit EWAR like TD's - which again add to your survivability.

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
Posted - 2011.07.30 17:40:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Zhilia Mann
Originally by: Von Kroll
Make the Ferox/Drake a choice between missiles or guns, and not one of less capable vs. more capable. Same with the Brutix/Myrm--guns vs. drones, etc.


And that's where this conversation always seems to stop. What, pray tell, is going to differentiate the Cyclone from the Hurricane and the Prophecy from the Harbinger? One of the latter could possibly be a drone boat, but I've yet to have seen a real suggestion on the former.


Don't know what the preference of most Minnie or Amarr pilots would be... Missiles maybe for the second weapon type? I fly Caldari and would like a choice between two same-capability ships--one with guns or one with missiles. I'm sure a lot of Gals would like the same choice with the Brutix/Myrm. Perhaps have the Prophecy be a missile boat or a Drone boat? Basically, my intent would simply have the two ships to be fairly equal in value/capability, just configured to use the various weapon types most closely associated with that race. Perhaps on the Minnie/Amarr it could be a tanking choice (active and buffer/passive), since there's really no true secondary weapon type like there is for Cals and Gals.

Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2011.07.30 18:02:00 - [36]
 

If the BC teir system was removed you could have:
Drake - Heavy Shield and Missiles
Ferox - Heabvy shield and LOL Hybrids
Myrmidon - Drones and SOLOLOL Active Armor
Brutix - Blasters and SOLOLOL Active Armor
Harbinger - Laser Death
Prophecy - Heavy Armor and Missiles
Hurricane - Projectile Death
Cyclone - Mixed Weapon System and Good Active or Passive Shield tank

I'm in favor of removing the teir system from everything including BC.
BUT I'M MORE IN FAVOR OF MAKING T1 CRUISERS NOT USELESS SHIPS OVERSHADOWED IN EVERY WAY THAT MATTERS BY BC.

Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
Posted - 2011.07.30 18:15:00 - [37]
 

Quote:
Cyclone: This ship is actually alright it could really use another mid slot (and pg/cpu to match) so that it can fit a legitimate active shield tank (wishful thinking). It can fit a beastly active tank for your small gang raids. It may be the only BC where I would consider choosing it over the tier 2 counterpart.


WTB 6 mid Sleippy? Laughing

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.07.31 01:44:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Nin Kimrov
Certainly, its why everyone only fly this and completly obsolete all the cruisers we have.


Uh, yeah, I'm not sure why that is a horrible thing...?

Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.07.31 02:11:00 - [39]
 

then why have cruisers?

In that way of thinking, we should'nt even nerf supercarriers, everyone fly them because they kill everything, so it should be ok?

Isavella
Posted - 2011.07.31 03:34:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
If the BC teir system was removed you could have:
Drake - Heavy Shield and Missiles
Ferox - Heabvy shield and LOL Hybrids
Myrmidon - Drones and SOLOLOL Active Armor
Brutix - Blasters and SOLOLOL Active Armor
Harbinger - Laser Death
Prophecy - Heavy Armor and Missiles
Hurricane - Projectile Death
Cyclone - Mixed Weapon System and Good Active or Passive Shield tank


I'm in favor of removing the teir system from everything including BC.
BUT I'M MORE IN FAVOR OF MAKING T1 CRUISERS NOT USELESS SHIPS OVERSHADOWED IN EVERY WAY THAT MATTERS BY BC.



+1. Putting all of the cruisers on the same level as the Thorax/Rupture would make Eve life worth living.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.07.31 11:19:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Zhilia Mann
Originally by: Von Kroll
Make the Ferox/Drake a choice between missiles or guns, and not one of less capable vs. more capable. Same with the Brutix/Myrm--guns vs. drones, etc.


And that's where this conversation always seems to stop. What, pray tell, is going to differentiate the Cyclone from the Hurricane and the Prophecy from the Harbinger? One of the latter could possibly be a drone boat, but I've yet to have seen a real suggestion on the former.


This is easy. Force the Hurricane towards an armour tank by cutting a medslot (this helps with its excessive mobility relative to cruisers also). This leaves the Cyclone as the more mobile active shield boat with a slightly-split weapon system (mostly ACs but with a side helping of missiles and drones) suited for solo/small gang work, and the Hurricane as an armour boat better in larger gangs with RR support.

Actually, it's the Prophecy that's trickier. The idea of a HAM boat has merit but I'd prefer to see Amarr missiles restricted to the Khanid line. But your idea of simply beefing up its drones a bit is workable. And if the Harb were to keep its fourth medslot, then it would retain the option of being shield-tanked, as opposed to the very definitely armour-y Prophecy.

I'd like to see:

Ferox: guns and shields
Drake: missiles and shields

Cyclone: guns, missiles and active shield (a mini Typhoon but with active shield?)
Hurricane: guns and armour

Brutix: guns and shield (armour hinders mobility needed to get into blaster range)
Myrmidon: drones and armour

Prophecy: tanky armour-y, lasers and a bit of drones
Harbinger: gankier, lasers, choice of shield or armour

Of course, the devil is in the detail...

s0lar pulse
Posted - 2011.07.31 16:17:00 - [42]
 

The cyclone is bad. Atleast with a active tank. There is no comparison with the Brutix in terms of active tank, without expensive implants and even less so the Myrmidon. The most viable lower tier active battlecruiser is the brutix. Esp since the cyclone is used in close range (active tank/scram), which is what pilots tend to say is silly.

I'll agree that battlecruisers are more useful, but they dont obsolete t1 cruisers. Some pirate or ex pirate corporations, pilots and allainces adapted and inovated. The rest fallowed. That is the nature of this game. Look @ beam lasers. They're not being used as much as they once did. That was changed by "L33t" pirate or ex pirate pilots, corporations and alliances. Inovation and adapation. Even the Harbinger struggles to compete currently. Mainly because of the Drake, before, and now the Hurricane too. Pilots like myself started using that ship long before it became popular. Since that ship was able to do what it's able to now. For a very longtime. The only thing that can be said about the ship is 'L33t' pilots, corporations and alliances started using them. The Harbinger is not a bad ship, but it has been obselete for the most part. Some have even made the argument the absolution is terrible. That has to do with the shift to shield fleets, sub battleships.


There will always be ships that will not be used. No matter the changes CCP intrduces, because some players, corporations and allainces innovate to quickly. That is eve! Those who inovate change the landscape. CCP tries to keep up with the crying of lesser pilots, corporations and allaince. In a never ending Cycle. There is nothing wrong with t1 cruisers. I use them and it is my fav class of ships. Alot of pilots believe frigates are useless. Many believe anything below battlecruisers is useless, unless it can support the larger ships in a fleet engagement or enough ehp to survive in said engagements.

I'm for nerfing all battlecruisers EHP, to lower its viabilty in fleet engagements. Making them more difficult to fly and less viable when engaging other ship classes. Have the Ehp of what they're are now. Atleast the higher teir battlecruisers. The lower teir would cont. focus on tank and a increase in hull cost. With everything, sub battleship, more difficult to fly and lose. This should make this game alittle more intresting. Wow and easy mode is that way --->

Vaurion Infara
Gallente
Beyond Divinity Inc
Posted - 2011.07.31 19:22:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: s0lar pulse
The cyclone is bad. Atleast with a active tank. There is no comparison with the Brutix in terms of active tank, without expensive implants and even less so the Myrmidon. The most viable lower tier active battlecruiser is the brutix. Esp since the cyclone is used in close range (active tank/scram), which is what pilots tend to say is silly.

I'll agree that battlecruisers are more useful, but they dont obsolete t1 cruisers. Some pirate or ex pirate corporations, pilots and allainces adapted and inovated. The rest fallowed. That is the nature of this game. Look @ beam lasers. They're not being used as much as they once did. That was changed by "L33t" pirate or ex pirate pilots, corporations and alliances. Inovation and adapation. Even the Harbinger struggles to compete currently. Mainly because of the Drake, before, and now the Hurricane too. Pilots like myself started using that ship long before it became popular. Since that ship was able to do what it's able to now. For a very longtime. The only thing that can be said about the ship is 'L33t' pilots, corporations and alliances started using them. The Harbinger is not a bad ship, but it has been obselete for the most part. Some have even made the argument the absolution is terrible. That has to do with the shift to shield fleets, sub battleships.


There will always be ships that will not be used. No matter the changes CCP intrduces, because some players, corporations and allainces innovate to quickly. That is eve! Those who inovate change the landscape. CCP tries to keep up with the crying of lesser pilots, corporations and allaince. In a never ending Cycle. There is nothing wrong with t1 cruisers. I use them and it is my fav class of ships. Alot of pilots believe frigates are useless. Many believe anything below battlecruisers is useless, unless it can support the larger ships in a fleet engagement or enough ehp to survive in said engagements.

I'm for nerfing all battlecruisers EHP, to lower its viabilty in fleet engagements. Making them more difficult to fly and less viable when engaging other ship classes. Have the Ehp of what they're are now. Atleast the higher teir battlecruisers. The lower teir would cont. focus on tank and a increase in hull cost. With everything, sub battleship, more difficult to fly and lose. This should make this game alittle more intresting. Wow and easy mode is that way --->



How exactly does making the individual ships more equal make Eve easier, pray tell? All you have to do to be superior to all other sub-BS tech 1 ships is copypaste a Drake or Hurricane fit, which also screws your innovation theory.

s0lar pulse
Posted - 2011.07.31 19:54:00 - [44]
 

Funny enough! I just read something that pretty much agrees, with my analysis. I was linked this after someone read what i posted.

http://www.evenews24.com/2011/07/31/ccp-soundwave-why-balancing-is-bad-and-monkeys-are-good/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+eveonlinenews24+%28Eve+News24%29

CCP soundwave was reminiscing on his progression threw Eve-online. CCP's changes, that the player base adapted too (atleast a few). Causing more changes by CCP and adaptation and inovation from the minority, which the mojority then adopts. These changes more or less made, because of the player bases need for ships that are easier to setup and fly. Never ending cycle. Also, the 'tier system' is something the player base came up with. Like HACS and many other terms. Your suggestion will only change, Drake and Hurricanes. To Drake and something else. Players, that are not you Lol. Will come up with something else and those ships will be popular. Leaving the rest behind. This scales of course. Many dont believe the Wolf is a good ship and so on. Get IT? You're wasting your time. But! Clearly you have nothing else to do. I know I dont untill I get my account back. Same can be said about super captitals.

So a EHP nerf, would make things more difficult. Making the difference, between damage and tank battlecruisers could be wider. I personaly think CCP should make things more difficult and alot less easy. A complete refocus to waht they have been doing in the past. People on the forums often think they're so sophisctated. Then lets make the game alot more complex. Bombard every class of ships, with more roles and have a even more complex pvp enviroment. More of a focus on tactics and less on numbers, but numbers will always be an important factor on some level. So, nerf The hurricane, drakes, harbinger and brutix's tank and keep damage. Boost the Ferox's, prophecy's, Myrmidons, Cyclones tank and keep damage. Give one the abillity to fit a single warfare link. While the other just focused on combat.

Keep command ships the way they're. This would boost command ships and t1 cruisers in one go. While nerfing fleet pvp. Might lead to more battleship fleets, but oh well...

-proxyyyy

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.07.31 21:14:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Nin Kimrov
then why have cruisers?


Extremely cheap and modest effectiveness, in the case of Rupture. I have no issue boosting other cruisers to be on the Rupture's level.

Quote:
In that way of thinking, we should'nt even nerf supercarriers, everyone fly them because they kill everything, so it should be ok?


That doesn't even make sense. I said BCs are a low-cost, low-SP entry into the full spectrum of PvP (solo to massive fleet fights). I'm not sure how you time-traveled to Opposite Day, but supercarriers are not anything like that at all. BCs have nowhere near the dominance of supercaps against other ship classes. They are barely viable for large fleet engagements.

Nerfing BCs won't make cruisers anymore useful, it will just mean yet another shipclass in EVE filled with garbage.


Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.07.31 23:33:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Nin Kimrov on 31/07/2011 23:37:16
Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Nin Kimrov
then why have cruisers?


Extremely cheap and modest effectiveness, in the case of Rupture. I have no issue boosting other cruisers to be on the Rupture's level.

Quote:
In that way of thinking, we should'nt even nerf supercarriers, everyone fly them because they kill everything, so it should be ok?


That doesn't even make sense. I said BCs are a low-cost, low-SP entry into the full spectrum of PvP (solo to massive fleet fights). I'm not sure how you time-traveled to Opposite Day, but supercarriers are not anything like that at all. BCs have nowhere near the dominance of supercaps against other ship classes. They are barely viable for large fleet engagements.

Yea bringing supercapital on the table is not an evident comparaison, but we still learned with them that CCP shouldn't never balance a ship around his cost.

Nerfing BCs won't make cruisers anymore useful, it will just mean yet another shipclass in EVE filled with garbage.


A t2 fit rupture is not that cheap, it's certainly is near the price of a hurricane, and let's not forget insurance.

As for dominance, BC has dominance vs cruisers and vs battleship in the way that it has all the advantage of a cruiser and near the dps/tank of a cruiser.
A ship class should not obsolete another class, it's simple like that. Why everyone think that nerfing a ship would be a bad? Im more thinking about reviewing the bc ship class to fit them like the destroyer class, were they have an advantage and a vulnerability.

Rigth now, the bc class can be fitted to counter any of their weakness easily.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.07.31 23:49:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Nin Kimrov
A t2 fit rupture is not that cheap, it's certainly is near the price of a hurricane, and let's not forget insurance.


30M all told vs. 60M(ish) for a Hurricane.

Quote:
As for dominance, BC has dominance vs cruisers and vs battleship in the way that it has all the advantage of a cruiser and near the dps/tank of a cruiser.


You are dumb as hell. BCs are thoroughly countered by BSes in general and some HACs specifically.

Quote:
A ship class should not obsolete another class, it's simple like that. Why everyone think that nerfing a ship would be a bad? Im more thinking about reviewing the bc ship class to fit them like the destroyer class, were they have an advantage and a vulnerability.


Even if you nerfed BCs, no one would use cruisers, because they would still be awful (except the Rupture).

Quote:
Rigth now, the bc class can be fitted to counter any of their weakness easily.


They really do poorly in 20+ fleet fights where Abaddons and Maelstroms are standard. Cruisers still wouldn't be anymore viable in those fights for lack of BCs. And they'd still be at the mercy of most T2 versions, due to across the board superior tank, DPS and fitting. I'm not sure what you imagine what would happen, but I'm willing to bet when the line between winning and losing is drawn at T2/BS, people would PvP much more cautiously than they would in 60M isk, insurable BCs.

I know I do, which is why I have literally 10x the losses in BCs that I do HACs.


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