open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked Hyrbids need love
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.07.27 17:36:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 27/07/2011 17:39:29
Originally by: s0lar pulse
Increasing Gallente tanks and damage even more, will unbalance solo pvp. Clearly what these ships excel in.



no no no not that. I don't want more tank. I want (substantially) more damage with the caveat that now you're forced to be inside 10km to do said damage together with some increased mobility, since the damage projection in blasters should be made by the ships themselves and not the weapons. I do feel that blasters don't do enough damage for the punitive drawbacks they have, but I also believe that I wouldn't mind them having their range cut even further if they recieve a massive damage boost, coupled with increased mobility that is.

also, the issue I have with gallente armor tanks is that they are too punitive on the ship's mobility. EHP wise they are quite fine.

I also am of the, hopefully generalized, opinion that said boosts should only happen to med and large blaster platforms. small blasters (and rails even) are quite ok as they are since they provide good range for small weapon that is not hindered by artificial limitations (target cap and 150km min. warp range) in the case of rails, and in the case of blasters, they are paired with ships that are already quite mobile, albeit the enyo case is somewhat punctual, but that's more because of :AF: than anything else.

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.07.27 17:36:00 - [32]
 

Its definately not been my experience that active tanked gallente boats can tank multiples of the same class. OK, without boosters and over heating, they can just about tank 1 of the same class, depending on how gank they are set up. They may be able to handle multiples with the aforementioned boosters and overheating, but tbh I gave up on active tanks long ago. Needing to run a repper for ~90 seconds to achieve the same number of hitpoints gained from a plate just didn't work for me as its a rare fight that lasts that long and the thin armour belt on active tankers is usually stripped away before a repper can cycle.

Verity Sovereign
Posted - 2011.07.27 17:51:00 - [33]
 

Look at the T1 BCs:
Proph/Habr: 150 m/s
Cyclone/Hurricane: 165 m/s
Feroc/Drake: 140 m/s
Brutix/Myrm: 145

The Gallente BCs are the 2nd slowest.

Having a Blasterboat be the 2nd slowest is dumb.
I'd give it a speed of 160 m/s, and maybe drop the amarr ones down to 145
The minmatar have 15 m/s on their closest competition while the others are only seperated by 5-10 m/s

Peter Stinkfinger
Posted - 2011.07.27 17:52:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
Needing to run a repper for ~90 seconds to achieve the same number of hitpoints gained from a plate


wut? you're getting 45k from a plate? I'd go plate too if that was the case.

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.07.27 18:14:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 27/07/2011 18:23:18

Originally by: Verity Sovereign
Look at the T1 BCs:
Proph/Habr: 150 m/s
Cyclone/Hurricane: 165 m/s
Feroc/Drake: 140 m/s
Brutix/Myrm: 145

The Gallente BCs are the 2nd slowest.


I've been saying this in another thread, while the cruiser hulls are perfectly fine speed-wise the battlecruisers do not add up. That goes for the t2 variants as well.

Cyclone/Hurricane: 165 m/s
Brutix: 152 m/s
Ferox: 148 m/s
Myrm: 146 m/s
Proph/Habr: 144 m/s
Drake: 140 m/s

Would make way more sense this way, even though it breaks the tier1/tier2 matchup.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.07.27 18:20:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Mai Ngyuen
And why is it im not seeing any of hybrids issues being posted to be voted for on the CSM Crowdsourcing thing?

Because you didn't read the crowdsourcing FAQs posted in the first message, like this one.

s0lar pulse
Posted - 2011.07.27 19:33:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 27/07/2011 17:39:29
Originally by: s0lar pulse
Increasing Gallente tanks and damage even more, will unbalance solo pvp. Clearly what these ships excel in.



no no no not that. I don't want more tank. I want (substantially) more damage with the caveat that now you're forced to be inside 10km to do said damage together with some increased mobility, since the damage projection in blasters should be made by the ships themselves and not the weapons. I do feel that blasters don't do enough damage for the punitive drawbacks they have, but I also believe that I wouldn't mind them having their range cut even further if they recieve a massive damage boost, coupled with increased mobility that is.

also, the issue I have with gallente armor tanks is that they are too punitive on the ship's mobility. EHP wise they are quite fine.

I also am of the, hopefully generalized, opinion that said boosts should only happen to med and large blaster platforms. small blasters (and rails even) are quite ok as they are since they provide good range for small weapon that is not hindered by artificial limitations (target cap and 150km min. warp range) in the case of rails, and in the case of blasters, they are paired with ships that are already quite mobile, albeit the enyo case is somewhat punctual, but that's more because of :AF: than anything else.



Alright, lets look @ your idea for a second. Lets, make the assumption you enjoy solo-pvp, which from what you've told me. You do not. Let's make the assumption you solo pvp, which you admit you do not (lol). Clearly you are one of many pilots who enjoys flying with other pilots. BUT! Lets imagine. If you fly Gallente right now, your options are very good. The only ships that could augment what you're able to engage solo already. Would be these ships: Hurricane, Tempest, Claymore, Vagabond, Rupture, Thrasher, Rifter. Those ships offer you something Gallente are not able to. Gallente offer you these ships as a Minmatar pilot: Dominix, Hyperion, Myrmidon, Ishkur, Brutix, Taranis.

Being a Gallente solo-pvp pilot. Your options are great, in terms of Frigates and Battleships. The only weakness in the Gallente faction is in the cruiser area (solo-pvp wise). With some exceptions (Mrymidon, Brutix, Arazu, Lachesis, Ishtar, Vexor). Does not seem that bad when you think about it.

So! You are now back to being Grimpak and you like FLEET pvp. Now! How will the changes you suggested enable you to use these ships effectively in FLEET engagements? In no way does your suggested changes do that! Atleast not on a larger scale of pvp, with logistics and whatever. Provided your chages happened. Would this mean you would pvp in Gallente ships? You know, close range pvp in FLEETS? OR! Solo pvp with your super-awesome-Thorax?


-proxyyyy

MeBiatch
Posted - 2011.07.27 20:02:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: s0lar pulse
bull


tldr

guy likes gallente so trained them up...

mimmatar get boost and gets green with envy...

too lazy to train for projectiles and wants blasters turned into poor mans autos...
does not understand that most people who choose gallente knew that blasters are meant to be shotguns to the face and are ok with its limitations...
and now posts walls of text to try to convience people the only way to fix blasters is to make them like pulse and autos and make the game vanilia...

note to solar pulse... sell your char and buy a minnie one... you will find out that all your wants are allready in thier race...

s0lar pulse
Posted - 2011.07.27 20:27:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: MeBiatch
Originally by: s0lar pulse
bull


tldr

guy likes gallente so trained them up...

mimmatar get boost and gets green with envy...

too lazy to train for projectiles and wants blasters turned into poor mans autos...
does not understand that most people who choose gallente knew that blasters are meant to be shotguns to the face and are ok with its limitations...
and now posts walls of text to try to convience people the only way to fix blasters is to make them like pulse and autos and make the game vanilia...

note to solar pulse... sell your char and buy a minnie one... you will find out that all your wants are allready in thier race...


Please keep it civil. Spitfire

I do not believe hybrids are broken and I have no issue with them. I also fly these ships. This is nothing to me other than an atempt to understand those who do not solo pvp. Accept the direction where this game is going and acknowlegde my gameplay style is not very one many pilots enjoy. Givening blasters range would do the least damage to solo pvp to me and appease those enjoy another form of pvp. Anything to complex will most likely either do nothing or break something. My argument is least likely to effect the current environment greatly.


-proxyyyy

MeBiatch
Posted - 2011.07.27 20:41:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: s0lar pulse



You are very [email protected] beyond [email protected] gtfo! Did not read wall of text and suggesting I dont even know what you're on about. Leave! What a clown...

I do not believe hybrids are broken and I have no issue with them. I also fly these ships. This is nothing to me other than an atempt to understand those who do not solo pvp. Accept the direction where this game is going and acknowlegde my gameplay style is not very one many pilots enjoy. Givening blasters range would do the least damage to solo pvp to me and appease those enjoy another form of pvp. Anything to complex will most likely either do nothing or break something. My argument is least likely to effect the current environment greatly.


-proxyyyy


LMAO!!!! ok you say blaster no broke... then say make the fall off better?
they broke or not?

you then say least way to mess with things is to make the only unique weapon type to be like the rest...
and your argument is the least likely to be taken into account becuase you completely reject what "Gellente" means and opt to try to be minnie...

as i said in the last post...

step one:
sell you char:
step two:
buy a minnie one...

if you dont like it then tuff... but TBH its you who needs to GTFO cuss you are derailing threads by posting such garbage suggestions...

s0lar pulse
Posted - 2011.07.27 21:03:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: MeBiatch
Originally by: s0lar pulse



You are very [email protected] beyond [email protected] gtfo! Did not read wall of text and suggesting I dont even know what you're on about. Leave! What a clown...

I do not believe hybrids are broken and I have no issue with them. I also fly these ships. This is nothing to me other than an atempt to understand those who do not solo pvp. Accept the direction where this game is going and acknowlegde my gameplay style is not very one many pilots enjoy. Givening blasters range would do the least damage to solo pvp to me and appease those enjoy another form of pvp. Anything to complex will most likely either do nothing or break something. My argument is least likely to effect the current environment greatly.


-proxyyyy


LMAO!!!! ok you say blaster no broke... then say make the fall off better?
they broke or not?

you then say least way to mess with things is to make the only unique weapon type to be like the rest...
and your argument is the least likely to be taken into account becuase you completely reject what "Gellente" means and opt to try to be minnie...

as i said in the last post...

step one:
sell you char:
step two:
buy a minnie one...

if you dont like it then tuff... but TBH its you who needs to GTFO cuss you are derailing threads by posting such garbage suggestions...


Nope! I said your Mum was broke after i let my dawg hit that last night. What I am saying is you're ******ed. I dont need more characters that are able to fly Minmatar, because most of my characters P much only fly Gallente and Minmatar, with 1 amarr only character.

Since your here and you insist on doing cart wheels. I'll watch! I like the circus. Wait! Whats your clown name? Bozoo? Britney Spears? rebecca black? Anyways, i'll get some cotton candy and come back. So I can enjoy the circus that is your life, while hellicoptor ****ing your grandmother = )


GFGFGFGFF (fun times)

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.07.27 21:14:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 27/07/2011 21:15:05
okay, trying to be reasonable here without descending to troll-lala-land, but it seems that this isn't enough. even still, I'll try again:

in my opinion the issue goes beyond solo or fleet pvp. it's more an issue where blaster-ships aren't that face-melting anymore. And face-melting is what they should be, beyond any shadow of doubt. I don't mind them having ranges no longer than your spit range even for battleship hulls, as long as I have a ship that can close in the target with reasonable speed, sit there at said spit range, and apply the biggest cup of whoopass the world has ever seen.

now how's that hard to understand?

and I stress this again: frigate-sized blaster hulls don't need any change, not even the frigate weapons (xcept probably the catalyst and the eris)

s0lar pulse
Posted - 2011.07.27 21:27:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 27/07/2011 21:15:05
okay, trying to be reasonable here without descending to troll-lala-land, but it seems that this isn't enough. even still, I'll try again:

in my opinion the issue goes beyond solo or fleet pvp. it's more an issue where blaster-ships aren't that face-melting anymore. And face-melting is what they should be, beyond any shadow of doubt. I don't mind them having ranges no longer than your spit range even for battleship hulls, as long as I have a ship that can close in the target with reasonable speed, sit there at said spit range, and apply the biggest cup of whoopass the world has ever seen.

now how's that hard to understand?

and I stress this again: frigate-sized blaster hulls don't need any change, not even the frigate weapons (xcept probably the catalyst and the eris)




Grim! You did not answer my question. I did not say that your idea was bad or it wont work. I do believe it would unbalance solo pvp to some extent. I have not thrown any troll your way YET. How will your changes effect your gameplay? Do you enjoy fleet pvp? If so how would your changes enable Gallente ships to be more effective in that area of pvp. Will you use them for solo pvp if not fleet pvp? How the **** can this go beyond pvp? This whole thread has been about hybrids use in pvp. The most popular forms of pvp is solo and some form of fleet pvp. How does your argument "goes beyond solo or fleet pvp"? Are we talking about PVE? I spent time reading your arguments. Answer the question please.

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.07.27 21:53:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: s0lar pulse
snip.... My argument is least likely to effect the current environment greatly.


-proxyyyy


And that right there is your problem. The current environment sucks for Gallente other than frig sized boats, which means as a whole the current environment sucks period. Adding more viable combatants to fleets and solo PVP is not a bad thing. Anyone flying FOTM ships who gets butthurt about a brutix landing on them and suddenly being able to melt them should just tough it out and adapt. You know, like everyone else has has to do with the legions of winmatar. Small blasters need nothing, nor do the ships that use them save for the laughable destroyers. Destroyers are a whole separate issue though and one I think everyone thinks needs a TOTAL rework.

Medium blasters are quite simply the worst weapon's in the game. And it's really not open for discussion. Pretending they work fine is just silly. Medium blasters and the ships that use them need some work to be viable other than in gimmick fleets and KM whoring. Blaster boats simply need more closing speed and a small damage upgrade. I'd push the base damage bonus to 4.5 for Heavy Neut II's and add in a touch of falloff while figuring out some way to give Gallente cruisers and up a viable way to close on opponents quickly. No one is asking for the moon. Just a way to use the weapons as designed in a viable way which is just not really feasible right now.

Nimrod Nemesis
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.07.27 22:09:00 - [45]
 

Medium rails are worse.

MeBiatch
Posted - 2011.07.27 22:16:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: MeBiatch on 27/07/2011 22:16:57
Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 27/07/2011 21:15:05
okay, trying to be reasonable here without descending to troll-lala-land,




sorry grim he aint going to listen HOPEFULLY he put his suggestion is the dev answer questions thing and when they get around to telling him his ideas are not going to happen... then maybe he might emo rage quit and stop trolling the forums...

sorry for the derail guys but this solar dude keeps comming in every damn boost blaster threads and wants to kill blasters...
I dont think you will find one person who works for CCP who will support your arguments solar... not one...

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.07.27 23:15:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Nimrod Nemesis
Medium rails are worse.


My bad, meant medium hybrids in general.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.07.28 00:04:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: s0lar pulse

Grim! You did not answer my question. I did not say that your idea was bad or it wont work. I do believe it would unbalance solo pvp to some extent. I have not thrown any troll your way YET.
I'll answer for him, since I'm such a nice guy Very Happy

I think you have a profound misunderstanding on what solo pvp is. Solo pvp is more than just a matter of who does more dps and who tanks better, the only real place where those numbers are the only thing that matters is when dealing with sieged dreads. As it stands, solo pvp is already heavily imbalanced, in favor of minmatar. It's not because of their DPS, or their range, or their tank (as they're outclassed in all 3 areas by amarr), it's their ability to disengage. See, solo pvp is not a series of honorobu 1v1s, it's a matter of getting in, getting the kill, and getting out before his friends show up, because short of spending 10bil on a faction BS, once you get 3-4 people shooting you, you're pretty much screwed.

The idea behind blaster pvp is that you actually CAN get in, and get the kill before his friends show up, and get out, but as it stands, you just can't do that with blasters in their current state. Buffing their damage so that they actually excel in the role they're supposed to have would in no way imbalance solo pvp, even if the changes were something absurd like cut the falloff in half and double the damage of blasters, you'd still have a somewhat balanced weapon, because their DPS at 45km (megapulse optimal) would still be 0, and they would still be notably slower than their matari counterparts (meaning you'd see a blaster user getting more kills, but having a worse k/d ratio) Not advocating that heavy a change mind you, but the point is still valid. More DPS at close range is the blaster thing. It's not imbalanced, especially given that the difference between blasters and pulses at 5km would be notably less than the difference at 45km.
Originally by: s0lar pulse

How will your changes effect your gameplay? Do you enjoy fleet pvp? If so how would your changes enable Gallente ships to be more effective in that area of pvp.

For fleet pvp you need to look at rails, not blasters. Making blasters better for solo pvp means you'd also want to make them worse for fleet pvp, because if one weapon is better at both, it's obviously imbalanced.
Originally by: s0lar pulse

Will you use them for solo pvp if not fleet pvp? How the **** can this go beyond pvp? This whole thread has been about hybrids use in pvp. The most popular forms of pvp is solo and some form of fleet pvp. How does your argument "goes beyond solo or fleet pvp"? Are we talking about PVE? I spent time reading your arguments. Answer the question please.
Their is also small gang pvp, which illustrates the problems of blasters rather well, and PVE, wherein the monstrously short range of blasters forces pve players to use rails, making the kronos the worst of the marauders, and making gallente the worst for pve altogether.

s0lar pulse
Posted - 2011.07.28 00:32:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: s0lar pulse on 28/07/2011 00:40:40
I think you should let Grimpak speak for himself. I doubt he would start by saying "I think you have a profound misunderstanding on what solo pvp is." Anyways, I'll wait untill Grimpak responds. Look up my post under this character "proxyyyy". I've been well ahead of anyone on this forums in terms of current trends and issues regarding solo-pvp and small gang pvp.

Since my comments are always backed up by abililty (skill as a pilot and balls) and not only that. I choose to innovate as oppose to begging for nerfs and boost on the forums (how many of you have come up with setups that are now generaly accepted and used?).

Many of the things you've just stated in your post I have stated LONG ago. Clearly you're clueless and thats not to be rude, but a fact. Grimpak is not and I know and have spoke with him ingame. I have intrest in his input as I alreadly have Input of some of the best solo pvpers in the game on this subject. They know that the issue is not with blasters per sey, but with the currecnt enviroment. Increases in player base, commiting to engagements. The changes they offer will be slight and will not change much. Which would lead them to say they dont think hybrids are broken, but not great. The rest of eve would not agree with that and do not. They want major changes, that will effect something they do not do greatly. These pilots dont want blasters to become shadow autocannons, but they know many wont agree that the issues with blasters are not that great. So! gruing things are ok and only slight changes are needed will not be accepted by the masses and large changes will not be accepted by solo pvpers. Where is the commen ground? Give them the range , that will leave basicaly everything the same without hurting solo pvp, while making them more viable for everyone else who enjoy fleet pvp.

Listening to Grimpaks response intrest me as I want to understand those who dont use these ships in solo pvp. What would appease, those pilots who engage in pvp only in fleets. Because they dont want to accept slight changes, but are intrested in very big changes that wont effect thier style of pvp much. AND! Wont benifit it either.


-proxyyyy

Cpt Fina
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2011.07.28 03:51:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: s0lar pulse
Edited by: s0lar pulse on 28/07/2011 00:40:40
I think you should let Grimpak speak for himself. I doubt he would start by saying "I think you have a profound misunderstanding on what solo pvp is." Anyways, I'll wait untill Grimpak responds. Look up my post under this character "proxyyyy". I've been well ahead of anyone on this forums in terms of current trends and issues regarding solo-pvp and small gang pvp.


The last time proxyyy soloed anything was this March. Before that the only thing proxyyy soloed, that wasn't a frigate, was in mid february.

How is this keeping ahead of current trends and issues regarding solo-pvp?

s0lar pulse
Posted - 2011.07.28 04:08:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Cpt Fina
Originally by: s0lar pulse
Edited by: s0lar pulse on 28/07/2011 00:40:40
I think you should let Grimpak speak for himself. I doubt he would start by saying "I think you have a profound misunderstanding on what solo pvp is." Anyways, I'll wait untill Grimpak responds. Look up my post under this character "proxyyyy". I've been well ahead of anyone on this forums in terms of current trends and issues regarding solo-pvp and small gang pvp.


The last time proxyyy soloed anything was this March. Before that the only thing proxyyy soloed, that wasn't a frigate, was in mid february.

How is this keeping ahead of current trends and issues regarding solo-pvp?


Is it possible that players in this game have multi-ple characters? Also, here's alittle known fact, that probably only Liang knows. Atleast from those who post alot on these forums. I sold proxyyyy = ) the rest is for those I know ingame to know and you to find out I suppose. Glad you spent sometime looking up on me = ) GRATS!


-proxyyyy

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.07.28 04:38:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: s0lar pulse

I think you should let Grimpak speak for himself. I doubt he would start by saying "I think you have a profound misunderstanding on what solo pvp is." Anyways, I'll wait untill Grimpak responds. Look up my post under this character "proxyyyy". I've been well ahead of anyone on this forums in terms of current trends and issues regarding solo-pvp and small gang pvp.
See, we have a problem here, because this is the first step one tends to take when going about arguing how much their experience has taught them that game balance leads a certain way, which is not in and of itself a problem, but without actual proof that you HAVE said experience to back you up, it basically makes everything you say useless.

Originally by: s0lar pulse

Since my comments are always backed up by abililty (skill as a pilot and balls) and not only that.
Are they? IIRC when I checked earlier this character was not listed on battleclinic, and to illustrate why this is bad I'll give you a brief example that covers just about every argument brought fourth by people like you:
"I have irrefutable evidence that PROVES beyond any reasonable doubt that my view is the correct one and that yours is not."
"Can I see it?"
"No."
Very Happy
Originally by: s0lar pulse

I choose to innovate as oppose to begging for nerfs and boost on the forums (how many of you have come up with setups that are now generaly accepted and used?).
TBH when I fit something I don't even bother looking at what others do with a ship. Despite having roughly a dozen well skilled alts I never actually pvp with more than 4-5 people (don't use more than one character at a time myself, too much of a hassle), so I'll come up with fits based on the idea that we've got x people with y skills. It works quite well, most of the time anyway. Do my setups see widespread use? No. They simply don't work in larger gangs and I'm not prone to sharing them just for the sake of seeing them used more often.
Originally by: s0lar pulse

Many of the things you've just stated in your post I have stated LONG ago. Clearly you're clueless and thats not to be rude, but a fact.
Wait, you mean you've made several of the same arguments as me in the past, and because of this I'm clueless? Oh dear.

Originally by: s0lar pulse
They know that the issue is not with blasters per sey, but with the currecnt enviroment. Increases in player base, commiting to engagements.
So basically the same crap I've been arguing forever and a day now. Hell, I'll make you a nice, condensed, list:
Raw HP increases, rigs introduced that put MASSIVE emphasis on tank rather than gank, lasers given much more tracking, nano nerfs shifting the meta-game, especially on the BS level, web nerf, scram buff.
Originally by: s0lar pulse

The changes they offer will be slight and will not change much. Which would lead them to say they dont think hybrids are broken, but not great
-proxyyyy
The last time I threw out actual numbers to go along with suggestions I've thrown out they were something along the lines of:
~15% damage increase, reduce falloff as needed.
Replace rep bonus on gal hulls with web bonus (at least for the t2 ships, so the diemost and astarte have a real use again).
Rails just need a slight (10% maybe? ) increase to base damage, combined with changing the current warpable distance to 250km (focusing on shooting past 150 is pointless when the enemy fleet can instantly warp to you)

Originally by: s0lar pulse

Is it possible that players in this game have multi-ple characters? Also, here's alittle known fact, that probably only Liang knows. Atleast from those who post alot on these forums. I sold proxyyyy = )
If you're going to use experience as your main form of evidence, you need to actually be able to prove that you do indeed HAVE this experience.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.07.28 04:43:00 - [53]
 

Also, since after rereading my last post it occurs to me that I wasn't particularly clear on what the answer I gave was, I'll post it here, nice and simple:

Solo pvp is already HEAVILY imbalanced. It favors matari almost exclusively at anything above frigate sizes. Buffing gallente to the point where their advantage in a solo fight actually matches the usefulness of being able to disengage would not make things imbalanced.

s0lar pulse
Posted - 2011.07.28 05:26:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Cambarus
More forum chat quote]


This is why I always find your bull**** comments amusing. By your own logic, I should not take anything you say seriously. Auctually, even in the past where I have posted killmails and even fraps of engagements. Many often pick apart said facts to backup thier own arguments.

In anycase, I have no intention of going out of my way to look into your background, because from what I'm told. There's nothing of import there! Atleast from what I've been told by those who fallow the forums. Apparently you and the rabble you fly with are a joke (minus some people I know in your previous alliance <3).

I've been focusing on solo - battleship and fleet pvp for awhile now. In low security and no security space. From my point of view. You're incapable of making any statements, with confidence because you lack experience and skill in pvp. You do not solo pvp, so why are you commenting on something you dont do? So, I suppose those who do can boost about it and make random statements regarding the subject. It's not hard to find information about me or people I fly with or have engaged. Or if I'm a realy a "good pilot" or not. Also, ingame I never tell those who even come to me for advice on how to setup there ships. I often just tell them to just go out there and figure it out themselves or show my own setups. I'm also known for asking alot of question, even from people I know dont have much experience in pvp. Mainly, because I'm on my own solo pilgrimage of pvp enlightenment...

Just about anyone is able to find something about me to back up what I've said. Not to mention posts under said characters name with Video of me pvp'ing or leading fleets. not to mention I've had lul beefs with people on this forums I've skooled either solo or froma fleet i've lead. Clearly you're reaching, because you lack skill and are'nt able to back up your own assumptions with proof!

Infact I've posted a loss mail from one of my characters in another recent thread, about the sacrilege. Solo in 0.0. Even gives insight to what corporation I'm currently in. Even the person you decided to speak for has some idea of what solo pvpers do. I'm not sure you realy do...


-proxyyyy

s0lar pulse
Posted - 2011.07.28 05:45:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: s0lar pulse on 28/07/2011 05:48:38
Originally by: Cambarus
Also, since after rereading my last post it occurs to me that I wasn't particularly clear on what the answer I gave was, I'll post it here, nice and simple:

Solo pvp is already HEAVILY imbalanced. It favors matari almost exclusively at anything above frigate sizes. Buffing gallente to the point where their advantage in a solo fight actually matches the usefulness of being able to disengage would not make things imbalanced.


Nope! show me this? Where is the proof to back up this statement about solo pvpers? You cannot, because there is no way for you to get that kind of information about the player base. In a game about people and them interacting in internet spaceships. Who do you fly with or know that solo pvps? Who these forums have even engaged you? In this thread right now i can tell you I have engaged, Lilith Velkors corporation/alliance and have flown with some of the members (heretics). Solo and in fleet engagemnts. ****ing video evidence that we Lulz beefed about on the forums. GTFO! Shows that you are clueless. continue to speak and I will continue to point out who on these forums I fly with or have engaged. Your lost SON! You dont know where the **** you are bra!

Also, other than battleships. My current list of ships i pvp with are as fallows: Hyperion, Dominix, Myrmidon, Hurricane, Ishkur, Taranis, federation Navy Comet, Coercer. Only one Minmatar ship. ONE! Those who I talk to on a daily basis that pvp often only fly the above ships and one Minmatar or Angel cartel ship. The Hurricane, Vagabond, Cynabal or Dramiel. The rest is Gallente or often nothing else at all. Just the 1 Minmatar and some throw the Slicer, Drake or Harbinger in there.

There are some engagements where you need to go close range. Those ships must have alot of tank and damage. Mainly i see the Myrmidon used for that purpose and battleships. As far as throwing out some numbers I dont want to waste my time. I'm not realy arguing for what I truly want. Just a balance between what those who do solo pvp want and those who dont. I speak for myself! not for my current corporation/allaince or pilots I fly with or know ingame. I ask questions of people around me. I listen to their response and get a understanding of how they view the game. Whether they solo pvp, mission or mine. I chill with people = /


-proxyyyy

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.07.28 06:38:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: s0lar pulse
Edited by: s0lar pulse on 28/07/2011 00:40:40
I think you should let Grimpak speak for himself. I doubt he would start by saying "I think you have a profound misunderstanding on what solo pvp is." Anyways, I'll wait untill Grimpak responds. Look up my post under this character "proxyyyy". I've been well ahead of anyone on this forums in terms of current trends and issues regarding solo-pvp and small gang pvp.

Since my comments are always backed up by abililty (skill as a pilot and balls) and not only that. I choose to innovate as oppose to begging for nerfs and boost on the forums (how many of you have come up with setups that are now generaly accepted and used?).

Many of the things you've just stated in your post I have stated LONG ago. Clearly you're clueless and thats not to be rude, but a fact. Grimpak is not and I know and have spoke with him ingame. I have intrest in his input as I alreadly have Input of some of the best solo pvpers in the game on this subject. They know that the issue is not with blasters per sey, but with the currecnt enviroment. Increases in player base, commiting to engagements. The changes they offer will be slight and will not change much. Which would lead them to say they dont think hybrids are broken, but not great. The rest of eve would not agree with that and do not. They want major changes, that will effect something they do not do greatly. These pilots dont want blasters to become shadow autocannons, but they know many wont agree that the issues with blasters are not that great. So! gruing things are ok and only slight changes are needed will not be accepted by the masses and large changes will not be accepted by solo pvpers. Where is the commen ground? Give them the range , that will leave basicaly everything the same without hurting solo pvp, while making them more viable for everyone else who enjoy fleet pvp.

Listening to Grimpaks response intrest me as I want to understand those who dont use these ships in solo pvp. What would appease, those pilots who engage in pvp only in fleets. Because they dont want to accept slight changes, but are intrested in very big changes that wont effect thier style of pvp much. AND! Wont benifit it either.


-proxyyyy

I would be just repeating what Cambarus said. He did explained it better than I could, considering I suck at trying to explain anything, but I'll leave input anyways.

the changes I advocate would make them too good for solo pvp? Perhaps, but then again, the extremely short range would make them ships that would need to commit to combat in ranges that make it extremely hard to escape in case of the target's friends arrive.
So, the "my dps is my tank" adage comes into shape, where you do a "bull rush" to the target and you deal so much damage, so fast that you'll be long gone before their friends arrive, because nowadays that's what solo pvp is mostly: the timeframe between engaging and enemy backup arriving. That's what I want to see in blasters, a point-blank weapon that dishes overwhelming damage on a very short period of time, that has as drawbacks a lack of maintaining said dps for long, and doing nothing but paint scratching beyond the 10km barrier.

And yes, it's the environment, but then again, missiles, lasers and projectiles were changed to accommodate themselves to said environment, while the hybrids and their platforms, in a whole, were based on gamestats that are at the very least 4-5 years old. Environment changed, so it's time for the weapons change too.

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.07.28 07:06:00 - [57]
 

Silly argument. Multiple devs have mentioned that gallente/hybrids are on the to do list. Go check out the Q&A thread as well as CCP Tallest's thread for that.

I know this is a hybrid thread, but I really feel that projectiles got buffed too much. The short range ammo got enough through damage purity - it didn't need an extra 10% damage as well.

s0lar pulse
Posted - 2011.07.28 07:27:00 - [58]
 

I suppose I should make an effort to get back on topic. There is a missunderstanding ,with regards to active tanking. You dont need faction items to be able to tank a certain amount of incoming damage. Damage per second and Effective hit points does matter in solo pvp. So, does velocity, tracking, damage projection, application and agility to a lesser extent. All these things are encapsulated in a ships setup.

Other factors are also involved, but there is no need to get into that. What matters is this. Blasters on all levels are able to apply there damage to varying degrees once a vessel is in range. Anyone can agrue the difference between damage applications between the turrets. Including between Minmatar and Amarr. Often, in pvp. The ships bonuses and setups often off set any advantages and disadvantages there might be between weapon systems.

Another silly argument I see thrown around on the forums. Not only falloff/tracking seems to be misunderstood, but also the relation between velocity and agility. Many suggest increasing the velocity of Gallente ships and keeping Minmatar ships low agility, Like there's some great benifit to having lower agility in cruiser class and above. Many dont understand relative velocity and how you use that ingame. Not to mention, pilot reaction times. Also, when many cruiser pilots and above are avoiding another cruiser. They dont circle them. They move away from them in a linear fashion. Agility between ships are so close that the difference is negligible. Velocity is alot more important than agility. Atleast while in an engagement. Infact! it can be weighted alot in favor of higher velocity. Agility is alot more important in frigate engagements, but even there. Velocity matters more.

So, no! Minmatar will not gain much benifit from being very agile. Gallente ships already have more ehp than Minmatar ships do. I know if I get caught by a vexor in a rupture I will be @ disadvantages in terms of tank and damage. This scales! Why give them high velocity to?

The truth is close-range pvp does not benifit from a increase in the player base. At the moment, Gallente have the only ships that are able to have very stronge tanks, without expensive modules or implants. They're able to deal with more numbers in the current enviroment. However, there will be a point where these ships will not have enough tank to be able to deal with these situations.

Increasing blaster damage by a massive amount is another way to deal with numbers, but CCP would turn cruiser, battlecruiser and battleship class pvp. Into frigate pvp. Where engagements dont last very long and ships do alot more damage than they have ehp or ability to tank it. This would make Gallente very unbalanced. Atleast in solo pvp.

Now! If you do slight changes, which make the most sense. Like changing projectile damage back to the way it was or lowering power grid and cpu usage of hybrids. Givening blasters a slight increase in damage to offset the Minmatar damage increase. These would not change anything in a significant way to the masses, but this is the line of thinking most solo pvp'ers I chat with want. The problem is close range pvp, not the weapons that operate there. More pilots just means more fleets and more ganks/losses. That will only get worse. BUT! The general eve community want significant changes that will effect solo, pvp. Even if they do not solo. They wont be able to use these ships in fleets effectively. So making them better in close range pvp wont change much. Pretty much making all gallente ships into serpentis ships, but with more damage. Serpentis ships dont see much use in fleets. I dont see that changing. ETC AND MROE WALL OF TEXT!

Grimpack you did not answer the question. I made a whole post revolving around a question and you still did not answer it. Would you, grimpak, fly the ships under the changes you suggested? forget the rest of my posts and answer that question...


-proxyyyy

Tore Smith
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.07.28 08:27:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: s0lar pulse


blablabla

-proxyyyy


please stop posting

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.07.28 08:42:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Peter Stinkfinger
Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
Needing to run a repper for ~90 seconds to achieve the same number of hitpoints gained from a plate


wut? you're getting 45k from a plate? I'd go plate too if that was the case.


Now there are arguements about which plates should match to which repper, but each can be countered either way. There are a number of cruisers that can and do fit a 1600, but in general its a BS size plate and there are races that can not fit them on cruisers without dropping to small guns (gallente for example), etc etc. across the classes.

Assuming the active rep and the buffer have the same resists:

400 RT 1,050
800 RT 2,100
1600 RT 4,200

Small Repper II 80/6s
Medium Repper II 320/12s
Large Repper II 800/15s

Small time to rep 1,050 hp ~79 seconds
Medium time to rep 2,100 ~79 seconds
large time to rep 4,200 ~79 seconds

Now, innitially I'd just put that down to my memory being a little off, but at the same time it not changing my point much as (imo) 79 seconds is just as unreasonable as 90 as I doubt there are too many small scale fights that last that long (they never feel that long at least, but I admit I've never put a stop watch on them). However, I would also throw into the mix the fitting requirements of those moduals.

400 RT 18 cpu, 30 pg
800 RT 23 cpu, 200 pg
1600 RT 28 cpu, 500 pg

Small Repper II 6 cpu, 6 pg
Medium Repper II 28 cpu, 173 pg
Large Repper II 55cpu, 2,300 pg

Now this is where I think things get completely out of wack as the fitting requirements of the large repper just leaps out as bat**** crazy and in short, you can fit 2 plates and still have 1,300 more PG, whilst requiring 158 seconds for that repper to chatch up on the hit points.

Now, in additions to this there are 2 factors we need to throw into the discussion.

1. is cap. Minni and gallente have the lowest cap levels, I would argue gallente is the most cap fragile race due to cap usage of blasters and active rep bonus'. Which basically exaplains what everyone knows and that is that you need a cap booster in order to active tank. Yes amarr have high cap using lasers, but outside of pos bashing, I've always had less problems with cap in amarr ships than I've had in minni and gallente.
a heavy electro chem cap booster cycles every 12 seconds. An 800 slug takes up 100m3 of space, meaning a hyp with a cargo capacity of 675m3 can fit 6. Thats 72 seconds. Basically, if you assume that regen etc will take care of using blasters and MWD (already a false assumption, but stay with me here) and the cap booster is there only for the repper, you will run out of cap chargers before you rep the same amount as a single 1600 plate.

2. is max tankable damage. There is a lot of talk about sustained tank able levels. Apparently a Hyp can fit a 1000 dps tank with dual reppers (I assume with a number of other things too, eg. boosters, overheat etc.). However, what isn't calculated is the breaking point of that tank. How much DPS is needed so that your tank will collapse. For example (ignoring skills for the sake of simplicity), it will take 15 seconds for a large repper to cycle. Therefore, what DPS is needed to cut through the armour belt in less than 15 seconds. With 8000 armour HP and assuming an average of 60% resists, thats 20k EHP. Which means, anything more than 1,333 DPS will cut through your armour before your first rep cycle. The difference between sustainable (alledigly 1000 DPS) and complete collapse, is apparently 333 DPS. WHats worse, is its achievable by a solo ship.


Pages: 1 [2] 3

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only