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blankseplocked Improve the trade system - especially contracts
 
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MorliDots22
Posted - 2011.07.21 23:37:00 - [1]
 

As long as the players are unprotected against scams and "accident" clicks in market ( maybe they are youth ! ) as long the scales of justice will strike CCP back. If you buy PLEX directly from CCP by a credit card and then "loose" them to scam or market order you can call the money transaction back in EU and USA. Through this way a evil player can get at least 28 PLEX or even 28 PLEX x Times because of consumer protection rights : He got nothing for his money. I dont want to change EvE into complete casual game but there are some basic protection issues that not exist right now. As long they dont exist a evil-know person can use this knowledge against CCP to get PLEX for free.

Laxyr
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.22 00:01:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Laxyr on 22/07/2011 00:01:48
And what exactly do you propose?
I am no friend of scams and I would not engange in that activities myself but they are a part of eve.

Concerning scamming CCP for PLEX: If I got that right then you say that someone may buy a PLEX via credit card, lose it ingame via scam or other means and in return cancel the credit card payment, did I get that right? I think CCP would have something to say about that. They clearly stated that PLEXs are ingame items and are to be treated as such. If you received the PLEX then CCPs side of the contract is done. If you lose the PLEX afterwards: tough luck.

They would certainly try to claim the money from the person who bought the PLEX and cancelled the payment. I think they would succeed in getting the money from the credit card company once they've established the fact that they have delivered the commodity.

Personally, I don't think we need more safety measures. Brain 1.0 is sufficient for most circumstances. And considering that you haven't made a proposal other than "change something"...

Regards, Lax

shady trader
Posted - 2011.07.22 05:14:00 - [3]
 

Since CCP have delivered the goods to your account, if you then loss it and attempt to cancel the payment. I believe when you contact your credit card provider you state that you have not received the goods, they were defective or did not authorised the payment.

Can you claim back on your credit card it you buy a phone and then loss it?

Since you have received the goods and they worked, I believe you will find that you will given false testimony and could end up in jail for fraud.

Also CCP have stated in the past, do that and you account is automatically banned and the card black listed.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.22 05:53:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: MorliDots22
As long as the players are unprotected against scams and "accident" clicks in market ( maybe they are youth ! ) as long the scales of justice will strike CCP back. If you buy PLEX directly from CCP by a credit card and then "loose" them to scam or market order you can call the money transaction back in EU and USA. Through this way a evil player can get at least 28 PLEX or even 28 PLEX x Times because of consumer protection rights : He got nothing for his money. I dont want to change EvE into complete casual game but there are some basic protection issues that not exist right now. As long they dont exist a evil-know person can use this knowledge against CCP to get PLEX for free.


There is one thing you must learn: you may be coddled and protected in whatever country you live, but in EvE you are forced to fend for yourself and take responsibility for your own stupidity.

Fall to a scam? Your stupid. Accidentally click the wrong thing? Your accidentally stupid.

Now, IF the game mechanics are being broken in order to steal or grief you (as in a certain trade-window bug years back that allowed the one who initiates a trade to pull his/her assets from the deal at the very last moment), that's different. But if your clicking through the gynormous amounts of pop ups and warnings and still don't read the fine print?

Your still stupid. Protect yourself. Don't be ignorant. And don't expect someone to rescue you. Might be something worth learning in real life, too.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.22 05:59:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: MorliDots22
If you buy PLEX directly from CCP by a credit card and then "loose" them to scam or market order you can call the money transaction back in EU and USA.
…at which point you have committed fraud. This is a bad idea. Don't do it.

MorliDots22
Posted - 2011.07.22 08:40:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: MorliDots22 on 22/07/2011 08:41:04
My proposal is that in a short amount of time like 1-6 hours a contract can be void either from selller or buyer after accepting it. The person who void the contract have to pay a void fee to his partner 10 % of the contract price.

Dear Coplayers just the fact that EvE is a internet game does not mean that a federal laws cannot be used. EULA is always under the federal law. The very popular counter "counterstrike" argument " you kill people so you commit murder" does not help here. In ego shooters you cannot loose real money. Here you can. If you loose ISK you get through the gameplay is absolutly normal but if you actually loose it in order : real money-PLEX->Scam or accident click its a different story. This way it looks like gambling game with a 100% fail factor. I was yesterday in my bank and asked about it. My bank will call my transaction back if I would do this scheme.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.22 16:22:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: MorliDots22
Edited by: MorliDots22 on 22/07/2011 08:41:04
My proposal is that in a short amount of time like 1-6 hours a contract can be void either from selller or buyer after accepting it. The person who void the contract have to pay a void fee to his partner 10 % of the contract price.

Dear Coplayers just the fact that EvE is a internet game does not mean that a federal laws cannot be used. EULA is always under the federal law. The very popular counter "counterstrike" argument " you kill people so you commit murder" does not help here. In ego shooters you cannot loose real money. Here you can. If you loose ISK you get through the gameplay is absolutly normal but if you actually loose it in order : real money-PLEX->Scam or accident click its a different story. This way it looks like gambling game with a 100% fail factor. I was yesterday in my bank and asked about it. My bank will call my transaction back if I would do this scheme.


To be more accurate, you cannot lose real money either. Since no digital asset in EvE belongs to you, and all of it belongs to CCP, what you are essentially paying for is not game rental time (which they are not obligated to give you anyhow), but the potential for game rental time (plex).

Which you then lose to another player who doesn't own it.



The ONLY time your money could be argued to be spent in an improper manner (as in, fraud), is buying a hard item (t-shirt, board game, etc) from CCP, or if CCP would allow you to pay on banned accounts, but still not allow you to log into them.

Get your information on 'in-game economics' a little straighter, and you realize that all the crying is futile.

MorliDots22
Posted - 2011.07.22 16:57:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Originally by: MorliDots22
Edited by: MorliDots22 on 22/07/2011 08:41:04
My proposal is that in a short amount of time like 1-6 hours a contract can be void either from selller or buyer after accepting it. The person who void the contract have to pay a void fee to his partner 10 % of the contract price.

Dear Coplayers just the fact that EvE is a internet game does not mean that a federal laws cannot be used. EULA is always under the federal law. The very popular counter "counterstrike" argument " you kill people so you commit murder" does not help here. In ego shooters you cannot loose real money. Here you can. If you loose ISK you get through the gameplay is absolutly normal but if you actually loose it in order : real money-PLEX->Scam or accident click its a different story. This way it looks like gambling game with a 100% fail factor. I was yesterday in my bank and asked about it. My bank will call my transaction back if I would do this scheme.


To be more accurate, you cannot lose real money either. Since no digital asset in EvE belongs to you, and all of it belongs to CCP, what you are essentially paying for is not game rental time (which they are not obligated to give you anyhow), but the potential for game rental time (plex).

Which you then lose to another player who doesn't own it.



The ONLY time your money could be argued to be spent in an improper manner (as in, fraud), is buying a hard item (t-shirt, board game, etc) from CCP, or if CCP would allow you to pay on banned accounts, but still not allow you to log into them.

Get your information on 'in-game economics' a little straighter, and you realize that all the crying is futile.


Dear Ruze, the PLEX bought directly from CCP is a right. You can use this right to activate 30 days of game time or sell it ingame. And you are absolutly correct players pay for a right to use the programm "EvE Online". However the controller of this program cannot cancel basic duties and obligations by a EULA. He can actually, and as long as nobody notices things will flow fine until there is a player who know the laws of his country and can efficiently apply them like in a example above. Have fun .

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.22 17:01:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: MorliDots22
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Originally by: MorliDots22
Edited by: MorliDots22 on 22/07/2011 08:41:04
My proposal is that in a short amount of time like 1-6 hours a contract can be void either from selller or buyer after accepting it. The person who void the contract have to pay a void fee to his partner 10 % of the contract price.

Dear Coplayers just the fact that EvE is a internet game does not mean that a federal laws cannot be used. EULA is always under the federal law. The very popular counter "counterstrike" argument " you kill people so you commit murder" does not help here. In ego shooters you cannot loose real money. Here you can. If you loose ISK you get through the gameplay is absolutly normal but if you actually loose it in order : real money-PLEX->Scam or accident click its a different story. This way it looks like gambling game with a 100% fail factor. I was yesterday in my bank and asked about it. My bank will call my transaction back if I would do this scheme.


To be more accurate, you cannot lose real money either. Since no digital asset in EvE belongs to you, and all of it belongs to CCP, what you are essentially paying for is not game rental time (which they are not obligated to give you anyhow), but the potential for game rental time (plex).

Which you then lose to another player who doesn't own it.



The ONLY time your money could be argued to be spent in an improper manner (as in, fraud), is buying a hard item (t-shirt, board game, etc) from CCP, or if CCP would allow you to pay on banned accounts, but still not allow you to log into them.

Get your information on 'in-game economics' a little straighter, and you realize that all the crying is futile.


Dear Ruze, the PLEX bought directly from CCP is a right. You can use this right to activate 30 days of game time or sell it ingame. And you are absolutly correct players pay for a right to use the programm "EvE Online". However the controller of this program cannot cancel basic duties and obligations by a EULA. He can actually, and as long as nobody notices things will flow fine until there is a player who know the laws of his country and can efficiently apply them like in a example above. Have fun .


It isn't a 'right' by legal definitions of the US, simply due to the Terms and Conditions listed before purchasing.

And if you continue to rely on your local bankers to provide you with legal advice on a matter of fraud, then I simply hope CCP has the wherewithal to file suit against you when the time comes.

Plyn
Posted - 2011.07.22 17:02:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Plyn on 22/07/2011 17:10:41
Originally by: Plyn
I'm fairly certain that, while CCP endorses scamming as an in-game profession, they have stated that scamming the PLEX market will not be tolerated. If you have been scammed out of PLEX you should consider filing a petition.


Edit: I must have been mistaken, I can't find the reference to this now. I must have been thinking about the rules concerning ETC trading.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.22 17:16:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Plyn
Edited by: Plyn on 22/07/2011 17:10:41
Originally by: Plyn
I'm fairly certain that, while CCP endorses scamming as an in-game profession, they have stated that scamming the PLEX market will not be tolerated. If you have been scammed out of PLEX you should consider filing a petition.


Edit: I must have been mistaken, I can't find the reference to this now. I must have been thinking about the rules concerning ETC trading.


That was one of the major problems with ETC trading ... it did have a legal drawback in many places, since you could have a physical promise of service (the ETC cards themselves).

The addition of PLEX as an in-game item only did away with that, as even the law is smart enough to recognize that what happens in a fantasy world is fantasy.



As a devil's advocate to that, the laws going into effect in many states in the US right now concerning 'virtual bullying' are encroaching on that concept, and we've seen places like Korea and China enforce real world trade laws on in-game transactions already, so this may not be true forever.

I'm personally against all this, myself. Keep the two completely separate. The moment you start applying real-life morales to a digital, fantasy universe, you take away everything worthwhile about playing in that fantasy universe in the first place.


 

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