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Malken
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2011.07.21 22:45:00 - [1]
 

eve is a pvp game in its core.

however the state of empire wars is and has been neglected for a very long time.
all other versions of pvp in eve is unvolontary wich is as it should be.
now however the wardec pvp is gone.

why some might think, well when corp A decs corp B then corp B makes a corp named B1 and jumps ship to that before war goes active.
corp A sees that his mark has jumped to B1 and starts a wardec with a vote and subsequently when vote is passed declares on corp B1 also.
corp B1 jumps to B2 and subsequently when B2 is wardeced also they jump to B3.

that makes 4 corps for B but A can only have 3 wardeclarations and B can jump ship so to speak to avoid any war at all and at no cost at all.

this is where the system is very wrong.

so what can be done to fix it?

well there are a few things that can remedy some of the problems to some extent without going to overboard.

1. if wardeced no member can leave until after 48h for another corp
2. players whos corp are at war or has declared or been decllared on may not join a playercorp inside 48h
3. no player from wardeced corp or the corp being wardeced may be able to start a new corp until 48h after leaving their corp.
3. put a no limit on amounts of wardecs, increase cost by 10times for each subsequent wardec instead.


there are a multitude of ideas to flip around here those i suggested is and shouldnt be to hard to implement in some version.

the sadest thing in eve is to see a corp of 250ppl totally lack spine to fight 4-5 guys who sit infront of their station.

pvp in eve should be to a high degree invulountary or it will not be proper eve.


Laxyr
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.22 00:16:00 - [2]
 

Beg your pardon but to my knowledge avoiding a wardec by repeatedly changing your corp is a petitionable offense.

I'm not saying that an automated system to prevent it from happening would be wrong but you already have means to get it sorted out when it happens.

Regards, Lax

PS I could be wrong though and it might no longer be petitionable in which case you would first have to convince CCP that it is an unfortunate fault in gamemechanic in order to get them to implement an automated system to prevent such incidents from happening

Mixne
Posted - 2011.07.22 00:33:00 - [3]
 

I may be missing something here, but if you're such a tough, hardcore PvPer, what are you doing high sec? A better idea would be to make high sec war declarations require the consent of both parties involved. In low sec, it only requires the consent of one side and null sec, who needs a war dec? The majority of space allows for non-consensual PvP. If that's what you want, I'm not sure why you don't go there.

EVE is a game. EVE is a game that relies on monthly subscriptions to continue being profitable. People play games because they are fun. People tend to stop playing games when they are designed in a way that makes it a griefer's paradise. People that stop playing, stop paying. It seems like it's in CCP's best interest to offer various modes of play that suit the largest possible audience.

Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Emminent Terraforming
O.G.-Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.22 00:54:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Malken
the sadest thing in eve is to see a corp of 250ppl totally lack spine to fight 4-5 guys who sit infront of their station.



I am going to guess you are camping industrial corps....
Speaking of lacking spine when you mention sitting in front of the station...

Saia Tae Arragosa
Posted - 2011.07.22 01:52:00 - [5]
 

OP if you are as bad-arse as you seem to think you are, why are you wasting your time in high-sec? Shouldn't you be out kicking arse in low and null sec where you won't encounter these issues you are here on these forums *****ing and moaning about. Sounds to me like you are just a wanna-be.

Hawk Firestorm
Posted - 2011.07.22 02:51:00 - [6]
 

Basically I think he's complaining that he can't go grieve small few player corps in empire that want to opt out of pvp and don't want to be involved in wars in the first place.

I'd support your sugestion as soon as CCP gives the ability to corps/Players to opt out of wars and PVP entirely or makes PVP consentual.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.22 02:57:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Laxyr
Beg your pardon but to my knowledge avoiding a wardec by repeatedly changing your corp is a petitionable offense.
It's not. Characters are entirely free to join or leave corps as they like, and a wardeccer is equally free to dec any corp the character joins.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.22 03:13:00 - [8]
 

I support locking BOTH corporations down from recruiting and leaving, with one balancing component:

Add another layer to the war dec system, but expanding it to be objective oriented. Allow freeform wars as they are now, but raise the cost of a wardec considerably. Cheaper 'objective' wars, where both parties understand the purpose (taking out a pos, moving opponents out of a system or region, etc) would be cheaper, but have more restrictions.

And to top it off, provide the opposing party the ability to 'counter bribe' Concord to disavow the war. You pay 50 mil for the war, they get 24 hours to foot 100 mil, and no war.

There has to be a balance. I actually support pvp and wars, but even I recognize the current system is ****ed in more ways than simply corphoppers.

Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.07.22 03:38:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Laxyr
Beg your pardon but to my knowledge avoiding a wardec by repeatedly changing your corp is a petitionable offense.
It's not. Characters are entirely free to join or leave corps as they like, and a wardeccer is equally free to dec any corp the character joins.

To clarify, I belive its alliance hopping of corps between alliances and extending timers beyond the initial 24 hours (POS takedown)that is petitionable . Other then that, you are free to come and go as you please in a corp as an individual player just as much as you are free to fire on any ship in space with or without a wardec.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.22 04:05:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Aqriue
To clarify, I belive its alliance hopping of corps between alliances and extending timers beyond the initial 24 hours (POS takedown)that is petitionable . Other then that, you are free to come and go as you please in a corp as an individual player just as much as you are free to fire on any ship in space with or without a wardec.
Sounds plausible.

The only unconditional wardec exploit I know of is that you are not allowed to use an alt corp to wardec yourself and thus increase the wardec fee for actual aggressors. Of course, depending on how you choose to comport yourself, a continuous wardec could conceivably stray into the "continual harassment" territory, but that has more to do with actual behaviour than with the wardec mechanic itself.

Malken
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2011.07.22 08:58:00 - [11]
 

well all trolls aside as they are really uneducated people not knowing that since celest was founded in august 2003 have been very much into wardecs in empire thus we want it to function properly.
it has nothing to do with griefing a hauler.
if you want to troll then go to C&P.

the way i see it since CCP doesnt consider the corphopping i described as an exploit of the limits in the wardec system is that to keep eve a pvp game they have to adress the limits of the current wardeclaration system in some manner.

hopefully sooner then soon™

Reami Sotsku
Posted - 2011.07.22 11:18:00 - [12]
 

a bunch of features have been neglected in this game! people still see CCP as the awesome and great game company that actually had good ideas, over the years they turned into a business ie blizzard. lets create other games for more revenue! WoD did it come out yet? Dust delay production for another 6 months and that just turns in to a year. all the while they say oh wait how is eve doing? It looks like the spaghetti that you left in the fridge for a long time.

meh none of our old player base is with us anymore, free to play anyone?
Halmar: Lets do it, up to 10m sp.

note: this was just an over dramitization I deserve whatever words you have to say about my post. I miss eve I miss it soo badly why can't you just go back to your roots?

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.22 13:38:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Malken
well all trolls aside as they are really uneducated people not knowing that since celest was founded in august 2003 have been very much into wardecs in empire thus we want it to function properly.
it has nothing to do with griefing a hauler.
if you want to troll then go to C&P.

the way i see it since CCP doesnt consider the corphopping i described as an exploit of the limits in the wardec system is that to keep eve a pvp game they have to adress the limits of the current wardeclaration system in some manner.

hopefully sooner then soon™



I empathize with you,the jelly fish crowd calling you spineless while they crawl under a rock to hide, is somewhat ironic to say the least.

However, it is their right to go hide as it is our right per the rules of the game, to pursue. It is a balance we should maintain. Once you start pushing hard on one side, you will have to give something up on the other side. Just think what might be given up for the fact of not allowing them to evade.

The corp has the all the options in the game to choose to fight or run. The corps that take the position to fight back will grow with experience and see more of the game for what is and what it can offer. The ones that decide to evade due to fear, will miss out on the core experience of the game. And that is their right and choice.




De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.07.22 13:43:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Baaldor
The ones that decide to evade due to fear, will miss out on the core experience of the game. And that is their right and choice.




Their idea of "the core experience of the game" may differ from yours. Just keep that in mind.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.22 14:02:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Baaldor
The ones that decide to evade due to fear, will miss out on the core experience of the game. And that is their right and choice.




Their idea of "the core experience of the game" may differ from yours. Just keep that in mind.


Peeps shooting others in the face is the core of the game. Without that, all other forms of activities, such as mining, building, research, market pvp etc would be meaningless.

So, shooting others in the face, is the core of this game.

Malken
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2011.07.22 14:53:00 - [16]
 

pvp players should in this instance not have to give something up in order to get it fixed as the balance is way off to the pacifists side.

if people want to play a non-pvp game wow is the other way as eve is and should always strive to be a in your face pew-pew game

Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.07.22 14:54:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Baaldor
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Baaldor
The ones that decide to evade due to fear, will miss out on the core experience of the game. And that is their right and choice.




Their idea of "the core experience of the game" may differ from yours. Just keep that in mind.


Peeps shooting others in the face is the core of the game. Without that, all other forms of activities, such as mining, building, research, market pvp etc would be meaningless.

So, shooting others in the face, is the core of this game.


No, it is not. Without miners you wouldn't have ships, without builders miners wouldn't have a reason to mine, without research you would be bored of EVE after six months training because T2 ships wouldn't exist so somone has to do it so you can train for it, without a market you couldn't buy ships and nobody could sell anything. The core of the game is the people with different points of view on what they enjoy doing, shooting another ship is just the fulcrum that moves things along otherwise you could just be playing a game with NPC generated markets seeding ships and no reason for the the rest of the other aspects of the game..

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.07.22 15:02:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: De''Veldrin on 22/07/2011 15:07:14
Originally by: Baaldor
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Baaldor
The ones that decide to evade due to fear, will miss out on the core experience of the game. And that is their right and choice.




Their idea of "the core experience of the game" may differ from yours. Just keep that in mind.


Peeps shooting others in the face is the core of the game. Without that, all other forms of activities, such as mining, building, research, market pvp etc would be meaningless.

So, shooting others in the face, is the core of this game.



And without all of those other people, PVP would consist of you shooting other people in the face with civilian gatling guns from a Reaper.

Unless you're suggesting you might actually take up mining and building and research and...
Oh wait...that's what all those people you're *****ing about are doing.

Edit:

I do understand that there are people for whom Eve is, and always be, PvP and nothing else. That's fine. What you need to understand is that there are people who don't feel the same way. They don't WANT to shoot at you or be shot at, so they avoid it in the same way you might avoid standing in front of an oncoming train.

On the other hand there are tons of people in lowsec, nullsec, and wh space who can freely shot at without even the cost of a wardec.

Nothing is stopping you from PvPing except your choice of targets. And no one is responsible for your choices but you.

Annasophia Smith
Posted - 2011.07.22 15:54:00 - [19]
 

Were not in to the PvP aspect of eve. Some people like it some don't. take it how you want I really don't care. When we were war dec, we used to hop corps. But that got annoying. So we simply log on long enough to keep the skills active and go do other things. If the corp needs to move stuff then it gets contracted out to an alt corp.

Crazy Renegade
Posted - 2011.07.22 16:13:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Laxyr
Beg your pardon but to my knowledge avoiding a wardec by repeatedly changing your corp is a petitionable offense.
It's not. Characters are entirely free to join or leave corps as they like, and a wardeccer is equally free to dec any corp the character joins.


I'll bet your entire wallet that you can't war dec just ANY corp the player joins. Last I checked NPC corps can't be war dec. Limited war dec should be allowed in those corps if the player is "x" amount of active time in the game.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.22 16:21:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: De'Veldrin


And without all of those other people, PVP would consist of you shooting other people in the face with civilian gatling guns from a Reaper.


well that could be fun.

Originally by: De'Veldrin
Unless you're suggesting you might actually take up mining and building and research and...
Oh wait...that's what all those people you're *****ing about are doing.


Actually, I have been known to do that from time to time. And where do you see me *****ing about jewbears. Are you just trying to pick a fight or just being stupid.

Originally by: De'Veldrin
Edit:

I do understand that there are people for whom Eve is, and always be, PvP and nothing else. That's fine. What you need to understand is that there are people who don't feel the same way. They don't WANT to shoot at you or be shot at, so they avoid it in the same way you might avoid standing in front of an oncoming train.

On the other hand there are tons of people in lowsec, nullsec, and wh space who can freely shot at without even the cost of a wardec.

Nothing is stopping you from PvPing except your choice of targets. And no one is responsible for your choices but you.


What are you on about? I was actually stating that the wardecee has the right to hide or avoid the war. Where the hell do you get I am all about pushing the little jewbears **** in?

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.22 16:31:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Aqriue
Originally by: Baaldor
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Baaldor
The ones that decide to evade due to fear, will miss out on the core experience of the game. And that is their right and choice.




Their idea of "the core experience of the game" may differ from yours. Just keep that in mind.


Peeps shooting others in the face is the core of the game. Without that, all other forms of activities, such as mining, building, research, market pvp etc would be meaningless.

So, shooting others in the face, is the core of this game.


No, it is not. Without miners you wouldn't have ships, without builders miners wouldn't have a reason to mine, without research you would be bored of EVE after six months training because T2 ships wouldn't exist so somone has to do it so you can train for it, without a market you couldn't buy ships and nobody could sell anything. The core of the game is the people with different points of view on what they enjoy doing, shooting another ship is just the fulcrum that moves things along otherwise you could just be playing a game with NPC generated markets seeding ships and no reason for the the rest of the other aspects of the game..


I've yet to meet a PvP player who didn't have a miner, trader or industry character on the side who is extremely capable at those games.

That said (and to all posters, not just the reply), PVP is the core aspect of the game: competing with other players, and destroying or taking or overcoming what they have in order for you to succeed.

This PvP exists everywhere. You PvP when:
- You buy or sell on the market.
- You rent a research or production slot.
- You mine an asteroid in an asteroid belt.
- You clear out or use an exploration site.
- You buy from, use, or create a contract order.
- You activate modules against another player.

In fact, shooting other players is the least used form of PvP in the game. But my argument has always been that if your willing to flood out other producers with your loot and salvage, or keep other players from enjoying those roids that you just mined out ... you should be willing to shoot and be shot. It's only fair, with as much damage your doing to others in so many other ways.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.07.22 16:31:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Baaldor


What are you on about? I was actually stating that the wardecee has the right to hide or avoid the war. Where the hell do you get I am all about pushing the little jewbears **** in?


I'm not sure. I'm sure I must have drawn that conclusion based on something...

Originally by: Baaldor


So, shooting others in the face, is the core of this game.


Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.22 16:39:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Baaldor


What are you on about? I was actually stating that the wardecee has the right to hide or avoid the war. Where the hell do you get I am all about pushing the little jewbears **** in?


I'm not sure. I'm sure I must have drawn that conclusion based on something...

Originally by: Baaldor


So, shooting others in the face, is the core of this game.




Yes, lets do away or nerf shooting others in the face, I am sure your miners, builders and such would be thrilled with the demand of replacement ships.

Malken
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2011.07.22 17:36:00 - [25]
 

if ppl dont want to be able to take part in enpire wars then you have the npc corps.
as soon as you have a playermade corp you shouldnt be immune to wardecs.

Thomas Turnpoint
Posted - 2011.07.22 17:47:00 - [26]
 

I was under the impression that Eve is a sandbox.

If this is truly so, then the "core of the game" is whatever you make it to be.

You will have to deal with other people to whom that "core" is shooting anything that moves, just as you'll come across people who do their best to avoid being shot at.

The idea that wardec'ing, ganking, and in your face pew-pew is the only "core of the game" is as narrow minded as the carebear who thinks they should be able to afk mine in highsec without having to worry about being ganked.


De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.07.22 18:14:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Baaldor
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Baaldor


What are you on about? I was actually stating that the wardecee has the right to hide or avoid the war. Where the hell do you get I am all about pushing the little jewbears **** in?


I'm not sure. I'm sure I must have drawn that conclusion based on something...

Originally by: Baaldor


So, shooting others in the face, is the core of this game.




Yes, lets do away or nerf shooting others in the face, I am sure your miners, builders and such would be thrilled with the demand of replacement ships.


I never suggested any such thing. I simply suggested that disenfranchising a part of the player base (any part of the playerbase) hurts the game as a whole.

Martinez
T-Cells
Moar Tears
Posted - 2011.07.22 20:43:00 - [28]
 

i hate to say it malken, but eve is 98% carebears. corps jumping from alliances imo should pay something, members leaving during a war dec should pay something. the free leave stuff is wrong. there is no winning with these noobs.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2011.07.22 22:10:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Martinez
i hate to say it malken, but eve is 98% carebears. corps jumping from alliances imo should pay something, members leaving during a war dec should pay something. the free leave stuff is wrong. there is no winning with these noobs.


So you would rather have 98% of the players in NPC corps that are unable to be wardeced?

The entire wardec system is flawed both from the agressor and the corp being deced. Will it every get an overhaul? Knowing CCP, probably not.

On a side note, while I am against forcing players to do certain things, I believe the entire NPC corp should be looked at. Being in an NPC corp should be like moving into your parents until you get things straightened out then moving out, not living with your parents until you die.



Khane Kournaut
Posted - 2011.07.22 22:26:00 - [30]
 

Having repeatedly been the target of war decs, the thing I want to see changed above anything else is the extension of the time from last aggressive action to being able to dock.

I'm sick to the back teeth of people deccing and then sitting on top of the station so that if things go badly for them - i.e. the corp they've decced actually get a few people together that might *actually* have a chance to take out the ship(s) sat on station, they then run into station and hide despite having aggressed the initial turkey ship sent to get them to aggress.

I'd love to see it raised to 5 minutes, as it would mean that more thought would have to go into pvp, as well as more thought going into who you war dec.


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