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blankseplocked Drake to Raven or Tengu?
 
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Postrem Inkunen
Posted - 2011.07.21 07:02:00 - [1]
 

So I am a noob drake pilot running level 3s.

My ultimate mid-term goal is to get into a tengu for level 4s, wormholes, and so on. I also have aspirations of being useful in pvp at some point.

Trying to decide whether to skill into a raven for the sole purpose of running level 4s, which would take maybe a week or 2 to be decent.

OR should I stick with the drake while I push toward the tengu, skipping BS and related skills entirely?

As far as I can tell, BS and cruise missiles skills would be completely wasted once I get into the tengu.

But then again, tengus are expensive and I am poor. Raven would improve my income capability, but delay my tengu goals.

Please commence discussion, suggestions, thoughts, comments, insights, trolls.

K'iran
Spirit of EVE
Posted - 2011.07.21 07:11:00 - [2]
 

There's no simple single answer to that, it all depends. Here's some thoughts:

- Tengu is great for doing missions for Caldari or Gallente, but it's not so good outside that (not counting sleepers) due to it's tanking and dps damage type. A raven has it easier, it can select damage type without dps loss and can bolster it's tank a lot easier for non-kin/therm. So it really depends on WHERE you'll be doing your PVE (and where you might move to in the future). a Tengu CAN be godly in PVP if you really know what you are doing and have a group of friends who are the same. Most people don't, so I wouldn't state the Tengu as a viable pvp option.

- Caldari BS, on the whole, aren't really brilliant at PVP. Their HACS are crap as well but to make up for that (kinda) the recons are quite useful, same for their logistics. Both of these are cruiser hulls so training BS for caldari doesn't open up a whole lot for PVP (not counting the Widow) but caldari T2 cruisers at least have a place somewhat


So it all depends on what you really want to do and where you're going to be doing it. But IF you want to be Caldari then getting cruiser to 5 for the Tengu, Falcon and Basilisk sounds like a good plan (realise that Falcon and Basi are support roles in PVP). Also a Basilisk is great to have in Incursions.

Postrem Inkunen
Posted - 2011.07.21 07:19:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Postrem Inkunen on 21/07/2011 07:20:10
Thanks for the response. I have every intention of doing most of my pve in caldari space, not only because it is convenient, but because it kind of makes sense from an rp'ish point of view. My character is caldari with high CN standing.

I am also VERY interested in wormholes for various reasons, and I understand that tengu is a good choice for this, while raven may not be so much.

I already have my heart set on the tengu, the raven would merely be a stepping stone for financial purposes in my overarching goal of flying my tengu. I just don't know if that stepping stone is worth the time and effort.

As an aside, I am aware that as a caldari pilot I would likely be more useful in pvp in a falcon than a tengu, and I am ok with that, but it is not an immediate goal.

Ildus Hekx
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.07.21 07:40:00 - [4]
 

A raven might well be the best T1 PVE mission running ship for the cost / value in the game for L4. I don't know what your skill plan is like. Have you tried EVE-Mon to work up a skill plan for each ship? Depending on how patient you are a raven might be a better place to start to earn money while you skill up for a Tengu. I mean if you are not ready to pilot a Tengu with skill it's a potential huge loss waiting to happen...

Postrem Inkunen
Posted - 2011.07.21 07:58:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Ildus Hekx
A raven might well be the best T1 PVE mission running ship for the cost / value in the game for L4. I don't know what your skill plan is like. Have you tried EVE-Mon to work up a skill plan for each ship? Depending on how patient you are a raven might be a better place to start to earn money while you skill up for a Tengu. I mean if you are not ready to pilot a Tengu with skill it's a potential huge loss waiting to happen...


Totally valid point.

Yes I am keenly aware that I will need more than just the ability to sit in the tengu to actually use it safely. At a 200M pricetag just for the hull, I would definitely wait until I have good support skills before actually flying the thing.

By comparison, ravens are cheap as dirt and with the exception of cruise missiles and active shield rep skills, I already have a lot of the basics covered (t2 hardeners, BCS, LSEs).

I do use eve-mon and I have made rough skill plans for each option, and the tengu is considerably farther off than a raven would be. I could be in a raven grinding 4s in about a week, whereas I am maybe 2 months or more from comfortably flying a tengu.

I guess my concern is two fold:

1. Is the raven significantly better than the tengu for level 4s to the point where I would actually USE a raven after getting the tengu, and the SP I put into it would not be wasted?

2. Could I get away with improving the drake to blitz level 3s and slowboat 4s to make enough money to support a transition into a tengu? If this is the case, my next step would likely be t2 launchers so I can use t2 heavy missiles, and therefore be able to break the tanks on lvl 4 BS rats. Since this is the primary weapon for my tengu fit, t2 HML skills would not go to waste.


I am patient, and yeah I could wait. But I also want to make efficient use of time, and I hate to waste time and points on something I won't ever use again.

Culmen
Caldari
Culmenation
Posted - 2011.07.21 08:13:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Postrem Inkunen


1. Is the raven significantly better than the tengu for level 4s to the point where I would actually USE a raven after getting the tengu, and the SP I put into it would not be wasted?


By many measure the Raven is WORSE than the Tengu for mission running. I doubt you'll find many uses for the Raven if you already had a Tengu.
That being said, there's a significant crowd that considers the Raven Navy Issue (more commonly known by its old name, the CNR) to be a significant improvement over the Tengu.
It uses identical skills to the vanilla Raven


Originally by: Postrem Inkunen

2. Could I get away with improving the drake to blitz level 3s and slowboat 4s to make enough money to support a transition into a tengu? If this is the case, my next step would likely be t2 launchers so I can use t2 heavy missiles, and therefore be able to break the tanks on lvl 4 BS rats. Since this is the primary weapon for my tengu fit, t2 HML skills would not go to waste.



Yes, the drake is a viable level 4, definitely not the most efficient, but viable.
I'm probably one of the few people who think this, but another option you might want to consider is the Nighthawk.
It's significantly cheaper than the the Tengu, but hits harder/tanks harder than the Drake.
Battle cruisers V is a pretty good investment in time that could benefit you in PVP.
And not just for access to Command Ships

Postrem Inkunen
Posted - 2011.07.21 08:29:00 - [7]
 

Culmen raises almost as many questions as he answers, but I think its going somewhere.

Originally by: Culmen
Yes, the drake is a viable level 4, definitely not the most efficient, but viable.

The big question seems to be HOW viable? What is my opportunity cost of running with a drake for 6 weeks instead of a raven? (tough one, I know, Im just trying to get an idea)
Originally by: Culmen
another option you might want to consider is the Nighthawk.
It's significantly cheaper than the the Tengu, but hits harder/tanks harder than the Drake.

I have considered the nighthawk but was put off by the deep investment into warfare link skills, and also the battlecruisers skill itself, which I currently have only level 2. I had been avoiding it because they are not helpful for tengu.
Originally by: Culmen
Battle cruisers V is a pretty good investment in time that could benefit you in PVP.
And not just for access to Command Ships

So given the fact that BC5 would improve my drake in the meantime, would it be advantageous to skip raven and go drake > nighthawk > tengu?

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.07.21 08:44:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Postrem Inkunen
q?


Well a draek on LvL4 will not be netting you that much more ISK/h directly through bounties, but it will be earning you more ISK/h through the LP store. If you want to go to LvL 4 missions with it BC IV is the minimum, you will not have enough tank with BC III (or less).

Opportunity cost is very hard to define in this case, but if you plan to go for tengu, i think it is better to stay on the draek, train up HML, and skip the raven. Raven leads to Golem (which i find superior to the Tengu, but it is not something everyone agrees with).

I wouldn't invest in a NH if my plan was the Tengu, since they share a prerequisite of caldari cruiser V, and you need numerous other skills for the NH, while you can go straight for the Tengu after that.

So, if you plan to stop at tengu, go BC IV, train up your missile skills while collecting ISK, then train caldari cruisers V and the tengu.

Postrem Inkunen
Posted - 2011.07.21 09:01:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: foksieloy
So, if you plan to stop at tengu, go BC IV, train up your missile skills while collecting ISK, then train caldari cruisers V and the tengu.


Thanks for the input. This is what I'm leaning towards.

K'iran
Spirit of EVE
Posted - 2011.07.21 09:10:00 - [10]
 

Also, just so you realise; a tengu active tanks so get Shield Compensation up.

Kraven Stark
Caldari
Atavism Industries
Posted - 2011.07.21 13:17:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Postrem Inkunen
Originally by: foksieloy
So, if you plan to stop at tengu, go BC IV, train up your missile skills while collecting ISK, then train caldari cruisers V and the tengu.


Thanks for the input. This is what I'm leaning towards.


Keep in mind the cost differences between an outfitted Tengu and a Raven, not to mention the investment in skills to make each effective at lvl 4's.

If you are sitting on a ton of cash, around 2 bil+ and have the 2-3 months to train the Tengu and it's systems properly, the Tengu is a no brainer.

That said, if you are having the slightest bit of an issue with 3's in your Drake and when you do 4's you either cannot complete them or you find yourself taking an hour+ to finish a mission, not even your Drake skills are where they need to be which means looking at another ship is probably not a good idea.


K'iran
Spirit of EVE
Posted - 2011.07.21 13:51:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: K''iran on 21/07/2011 13:52:26
Originally by: Kraven Stark
If you are sitting on a ton of cash, around 2 bil+


What a bunch of nonsense. Here's a simple fit, works just fine. All that pimping is nothing but idiots who have no real clue about what they're doing. This a nice starting point and essentially all you'll ever need, just switch to faction BCS when you can pay for them.

[Tengu, basic]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Co-Processor II

10MN Afterburner II
Gistii C-Type Small Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Ballistic Deflection Field II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst


Kraven Stark
Caldari
Atavism Industries
Posted - 2011.07.21 14:09:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: K'iran
Edited by: K''iran on 21/07/2011 13:52:26
Originally by: Kraven Stark
If you are sitting on a ton of cash, around 2 bil+


What a bunch of nonsense. Here's a simple fit, works just fine. All that pimping is nothing but idiots who have no real clue about what they're doing. This a nice starting point and essentially all you'll ever need, just switch to faction BCS when you can pay for them.

[Tengu, basic]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Co-Processor II

10MN Afterburner II
Gistii C-Type Small Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Ballistic Deflection Field II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst




I'll hold onto this build. The main reason I have been thinking against the Tengu has been because of the builds I have been seeing, at least in the more short term.

Jesarey
Posted - 2011.07.21 15:05:00 - [14]
 

The eternal question faced by all caldari pilots. I would go straight for tengu. Tengus excel at missions, not so because of good dps and godly tank, but because you spend less time slowboating to that damn acceleration gate 50 km away :p . So you will be able to complete them faster. Tengu is a kind of swiss army knife. Just swap the subsytem, and your PVE ship turns into a PVP monster, or great exploration ship. Also, cruiser skill 5 opens up t2 cruisers, and caldari have some fine ones. BTW, cerberus(caldari hac) is pretty good.

Postrem Inkunen
Posted - 2011.07.21 15:38:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Kraven Stark
Originally by: Postrem Inkunen
Originally by: foksieloy
So, if you plan to stop at tengu, go BC IV, train up your missile skills while collecting ISK, then train caldari cruisers V and the tengu.


Thanks for the input. This is what I'm leaning towards.


Keep in mind the cost differences between an outfitted Tengu and a Raven, not to mention the investment in skills to make each effective at lvl 4's.

If you are sitting on a ton of cash, around 2 bil+ and have the 2-3 months to train the Tengu and it's systems properly, the Tengu is a no brainer.

Yep I am fully aware of the costs and needed skills for the tengu, and I am making sure I prepare accordingly. I am not going to be the guy that failfits his shiny new ship that cost his net worth, and then loses it on the first time out. I plan ahead.

Originally by: Kraven Stark
if you are having the slightest bit of an issue with 3's in your Drake and when you do 4's you either cannot complete them or you find yourself taking an hour+ to finish a mission, not even your Drake skills are where they need to be which means looking at another ship is probably not a good idea.


On the contrary, I am mowing down 3's in my drake. I can tank the Blockade at 0m and never warp out. I also tank 4's quite well, and I would be content to run them exclusively if I could put out enough DPS to break the BS rats in a reasonable amount of time. I do think upgrading to T2 missiles will do that.

Kraven Stark
Caldari
Atavism Industries
Posted - 2011.07.21 16:37:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Postrem Inkunen
Originally by: Kraven Stark
Originally by: Postrem Inkunen
Originally by: foksieloy
So, if you plan to stop at tengu, go BC IV, train up your missile skills while collecting ISK, then train caldari cruisers V and the tengu.


Thanks for the input. This is what I'm leaning towards.


Keep in mind the cost differences between an outfitted Tengu and a Raven, not to mention the investment in skills to make each effective at lvl 4's.

If you are sitting on a ton of cash, around 2 bil+ and have the 2-3 months to train the Tengu and it's systems properly, the Tengu is a no brainer.

Yep I am fully aware of the costs and needed skills for the tengu, and I am making sure I prepare accordingly. I am not going to be the guy that failfits his shiny new ship that cost his net worth, and then loses it on the first time out. I plan ahead.

Originally by: Kraven Stark
if you are having the slightest bit of an issue with 3's in your Drake and when you do 4's you either cannot complete them or you find yourself taking an hour+ to finish a mission, not even your Drake skills are where they need to be which means looking at another ship is probably not a good idea.


On the contrary, I am mowing down 3's in my drake. I can tank the Blockade at 0m and never warp out. I also tank 4's quite well, and I would be content to run them exclusively if I could put out enough DPS to break the BS rats in a reasonable amount of time. I do think upgrading to T2 missiles will do that.


Ah, when you called yourself a noob Drake pilot, I thought you were actually new to the Drake.

Morigan Omega
Posted - 2011.07.22 11:46:00 - [17]
 

I used my Raven to fund my Tengu build, and haven't looked back since. It's been far more effective than the Raven in every way for mission running. I'm sure I didn't have ideal BS skills, but the Tengu can output way more dps than I could dream about in the Raven.

Just don't even think about doing anything in it until getting the subsystem skills to level 4!


 

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