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Duke matar
Posted - 2011.07.19 18:11:00 - [1]
 

hello,

Well, my toon has about 18M sp and I try to learn by myself as i can, but what i've learned with my short experience is "dictating range is win". I love flying cruiser hulls, not far from a perfect tengu

That said, as a caldari pilot, how can i didacte range when:

1. Caldari ships are, so far, slower than other races
2. Caldari ships have, so far, less agility than other races

and also (according to EFT)

Caldari ships CPU / PG are lower than other races, so its often very tight to fit or requiert CPU / PG implants
Caldari ships have a little less dps than other races, often due to the above said

Result is i'm always in scram / web range from other ships, so I loose.

Please if u have some specific caldari guides, tactics, fittings, strategies and stuff, feel free to let me know.

Thanks for reading, hoping to avoid trolls and gather some nice informations.

Tommy Machiavelli
Posted - 2011.07.19 18:37:00 - [2]
 

Caldari have some legit pvp ships. Drake/Falcon/Tengu come to mind right off the bat.

Don't need to worry about dictating range in a HML Drake. You can sling missiles from well farther than almost any cruiser-sized weaponry. Tengu should be fast enough to dictate range a bit, and even HAMs can reach out to 20-25km no problem.

Are you flying gangs or solo?

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.19 18:38:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: chatgris on 19/07/2011 18:39:52
Originally by: Duke matar
That said, as a caldari pilot, how can i didacte range when:

1. Caldari ships are, so far, slower than other races
2. Caldari ships have, so far, less agility than other races



1. Drop the DCU, fit 2x nanos. You are shield tanked anyways, DCU's don't help as much as they help armor tanks. Also, caldari ships have a lot of midslots. Don't waste them on needless tank! I like to use 2 webs on my drake ( http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9865705 ). If a faster ship is trying to catch you, fly away from it and overheat your webs. Continually spam web, generally you can web a nanocane before it can close for scram range on you.

2. That is FALSE. Caldari ships (at least missile boats like the drake) have the best base agility in class. Couple this with the fact that other ships are often armor tanked lowering their agility even more, and caldari ships agility is really king of the hill with shield tanked minmatar ships.

Originally by: Duke matar

and also (according to EFT)

Caldari ships CPU / PG are lower than other races, so its often very tight to fit or requiert CPU / PG implants



Caldari ships are EASY to fit compared to say, gallente hulls. Don't fall into the trap where you have to pack all the tank and invulns you can into the midslots. Ewar generally has lower CPU and PG requirements than tank items. Use it instead.

Originally by: Duke matar

Caldari ships have a little less dps than other races, often due to the above said



Maybe paper dps, but in most fights a HML drake can outdps most other battlecruisers. With t2 scourge, a drake with 2 bcu's and hobgoblins can push out around 500dps before overheating. Drakes don't need to worry about tracking or falloff, which significantly reduces turret dps in most real world fights. A drake can also switch damage type (e.g. when fighting a ship with high kin/therm resists, use em or exp damage).


Originally by: Duke matar

Result is i'm always in scram / web range from other ships, so I loose.



If the above doesn't work for kiting (and I've had a lot of experience with the kiting drake, it DOES work) - HAM drake. Scram, web, tank. Use rage missiles on similar sized targets. A HAM drake can win a slugfest against most other standard fit battlecruisers.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.07.19 18:40:00 - [4]
 

Even though Caldari base speeds are slower than other races base speeds, a lot of other races ships choose to armor tank. Since you in most cases use a shield tank, you will be faster than them. Armor slows the ship a lot.

So if you want to kite, hunt armor ships.

Secondly, with missiles, you can really take advantage of DPS at range, or take advantage of getting under the enemies guns, since you cannot outtrack yourself (something that is quite possible with fast ships that use turrets).

Lastly, you have a lot of midslots. Hawk, Hookbill, Draek... All are really nasty with the capability to fit dual webs and still have propulsion and tank. 2x web > any natural speed advantage.

gonesideways
Posted - 2011.07.19 20:19:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: chatgris


Originally by: Duke matar

Caldari ships have a little less dps than other races, often due to the above said



Maybe paper dps, but in most fights a HML drake can outdps most other battlecruisers. With t2 scourge, a drake with 2 bcu's and hobgoblins can push out around 500dps before overheating. Drakes don't need to worry about tracking or falloff, which significantly reduces turret dps in most real world fights.



^this, confirmed on many kms

I'll outdamage anyone in my fleet with drake for the most part

NoLimit Soldier
Posted - 2011.07.19 22:25:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: NoLimit Soldier on 19/07/2011 22:28:10
Caldari is slow because if they weren't they would be the ultimate kiting race (they have the best damage projection)

Gallente don't have the speed to close to their target to apply their dps, yay balance.



Having said that, 80% of my kills are in caldari hulls, and I can say that they do suck for small gang. But it is all made up for by the tengu.

(Also, the siege link merlin is pretty much unstoppable. It has bagged me more 80 point kills than anything else ever has.


Train minmatar, you won't regret it.


And drake is just FOTM, don't buy into the whole "its the end all be all of caldari" That spot is reserved for the tengu.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.07.20 00:26:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: chatgris

snip



+1ing all this here.

Originally by: NoLimit Soldier
And drake is just FOTM, don't buy into the whole "its the end all be all of caldari" That spot is reserved for the tengu.


I don't think anyone ever argued the Drake was the end-all, be-all of Caldari PvP. But it's surely the bread-and-butter of it, moreso than the other racial BCs. The other HAC lineups offer something outstanding, while the less said about Caldari HACs, the better.

Duke matar
Posted - 2011.07.20 11:09:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Duke matar on 20/07/2011 11:09:43
Originally by: chatgris



1. Drop the DCU, fit 2x nanos. You are shield tanked anyways, DCU's don't help as much as they help armor tanks. Also, caldari ships have a lot of midslots. Don't waste them on needless tank!

Don't fall into the trap where you have to pack all the tank and invulns you can into the midslots. Ewar generally has lower CPU and PG requirements than tank items. Use it instead.




o/
First thank you all for reply.

Thanks for those advices, so after reading, I'm plaining to train some Ewar stuff, such TD and ECM.

So I made this fit, and I would know if this is comdemned to fail or not ^^
The main purpose is to avoid damage from Projos and Lasers boat while tracking disrupt their optimal range, so they cant apply dps from 10+ km, then the web is here to prevent they get into 0-15km range.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/tenguewar.jpg/

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.20 11:57:00 - [9]
 

Fitting is bad, your billion ISK shield booster wont do much usefull stuff and you fly with literally no tank, a maelstrom will alpha strike you. If you need your web they will also web you and you are die in 3 seconds. But more important, if you have still so much issues with the drake, do you really think that switching to a similar ship that costs something like 2B ISK is a good idea?

NoLimit Soldier
Posted - 2011.07.20 12:56:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Fitting is bad, your billion ISK shield booster wont do much usefull stuff and you fly with literally no tank, a maelstrom will alpha strike you. If you need your web they will also web you and you are die in 3 seconds. But more important, if you have still so much issues with the drake, do you really think that switching to a similar ship that costs something like 2B ISK is a good idea?


Where do you find these 20,000 alpha maelstroms? I want one!!!!

But seriously though, that was a terrible fit. I would just stick with a few friends and do bait and gank or pick on new people until you find your footing.

As a general rule though, caldari doesn't really have the mid slots to spare for e-war.


Irani Firecam
Posted - 2011.07.20 13:33:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Irani Firecam on 20/07/2011 13:34:10
1) Bring friends.
2) Send in friends as meatshield for your caldari ships.
3) ???
4) Profit.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.20 13:34:00 - [12]
 

Not needed, he still has an enormous EM hole (why on earth does he have a t1 EM rig there?), which brings his EHP to EMP ammo to less than 15k EHP. Get normal artie mael, with sentries, and yeah you dont reach that :P

You get awfully close though, removing 12k of that ehp in one volley with sentries should be doable, if you get lucky with the dice you might even alpha him. Mach comes even closer.


And I can know it since I have been on the receiving end of that, was travelling with pretty much all my stuff in carrier and decided to scout outside station in random ship, which happened to be my guristas pve tengu, so even a bit less em resists than he has in that fitting. I saw a maelstrom outside station and just reapproached station without bothering too much with waiting timer since i wasnt too worried about it. That was until he volleyd me deep into armor. At which point i spammed docking button, which I wasnt allowed to do yet, so I frantically went for max transversal to hopefully survive the next volley. Luckily I could dock right before he could fire again, didnt really want to find out if I had enough transversal.

Zeerover
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.07.20 13:42:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: chatgris





Listen to chatgris. He even taught us how to use Drakes properly, still have a corp fit saved named "Chatgris Drake" :)

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.07.20 13:43:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: NoLimit Soldier
As a general rule though, caldari doesn't really have the mid slots to spare for e-war.


They have plenty, and two of the three Caldari weapons systems are ideally suited to small-gang environments - ECM and missiles. In small gang, missile damage delay is close to inconsequential and the damage projection abilities and flexible damage type of missiles can also be best exploited. The damage projection abilities of missiles allow you to exchange shield-tank for range-tank, freeing medslots up for more offensive power in the form of ewar mods.

And as already stated, the Caldari missile ships are generally some of the most agile in game. They don't have the raw speed or acceleration of Minmatar, but they compare favourably with Amarr and Gallente. The problems come with med/large railboats and large fleet doctrines.

NoLimit Soldier
Posted - 2011.07.20 13:54:00 - [15]
 

Crash course in caldari pvp: (caldari pvp sucks btw)

Kestrel - Tough to fit fully (web kiting setup requires AWU V or dropping to best named launchers) but kite at edge of scram range for as long as possible. Not fast enough to keep the distance, and it turns into a EHP/DPS race. Don't go MWD + standard, it doesn't have the cap and the DRF of standards is a little to high.

Merlin - You either fit a web so they can't get away and lose as your EHP/DPS isn't enough or you tank it and they can disengage. I personally active tank with AC so you can bait them into your armor/structure as they won't disengage until its to late.

Coromoant - I've seen a pretty funny setup where they put rails on it and tagged an inty at 100km that was "scouting". Outclassed by the thrasher BAD.

Caracal - Great damage projection, terrible speed. Can't fit HAMs and tank, horrible cap, fit HML and e-war (damps) and come in at range. Fleet only ship. (And any one who says "its the best anti frigate cruiser" REALLY REALLY needs to fly a vexor or ruppy)

Blackbird - Fit a rack full of jammers, (or -1 for mwd) and SDA's and distance rigs. Come in at insane distance and pre-align, let the jammers lose, if you take damage, warp off. Fleet only ship.

Moa - This thing sucks.

Ferox - This thing sucks.

Drake - Ham brick or dual nano are both decent fits, but has a horrible time catching anything smaller than it and not many people with 1vs1 BCs with you and its to fat to go a ship class up. One of the more balanced caldari ships. (and one of the only that can go toe to toe with racial counter parts and win)

Scorp - See blackbird, EXACT SAME THING.

Raven - Use a typhoon instead if you like torps. It has better EHP, half the cost, and fits neuts. Raven is mainly only good for being a warp in hammer. heavy neut fit is interesting though but I haven't tested it.

Rokh - never flown it, never been afraid of it.

Hawk - if setup for kiting can be a decent AF killler, for ALL other uses, the Jag out performs it in speed / tank / damage.

Harpy - Blarpy is supposed to be good.

Cerb - This things sucks

Eagle - This thing sucks

Rook - The best ship period for small gang in my opinion. Solo boss setup or blackbird it out (range rigs + pre-align + bring the rain) useless once the enemy has battleships or more than 10 people.

Falcon - Cloaky scouty version of the rook.

Nighthawk - An expensive cool looking drake, literally only a 10% performance gain over a drake for a lot more money. Can be fun to play around in.

Tengu - Probaly the greatest thing to happen to caldari. I'm fine with having crappy ships because we have this thing.


That should be enough for now. In short Recon/BC/T3 are the only 3 places where caldari PVP is best in class.









OT Smithers
Posted - 2011.07.20 16:15:00 - [16]
 

Many people, including myself for a long time, fall into the "solo" trap when thinking about PvP. What can I solo? How does this ship compare to that one? When viewed from that perspective Caldari ships, at first glance at least, appear to lag far behind. Caldari ships tend to be slower, have fewer drones, and often have serious or complicated fitting issues. Further, there is a natural tendency to compare your ships weaknessness to your enemies strengths: "I am slower," you might say, "He can just leave whenever he wants! I'll never catch him!" And while I said that this tendency was natural, it is also flawed: Effective tactics are based upon understanding your ship's strengths (caldari ships have many) and then matching those strengths against an enemy's weaknesses.

The reality is this: Other than high-sec 1v1 honor duels, PvP in eve is only rarely a solo sport, and even on those rare occassions it is only solo because one of the parties involved felt he had an advantage that would allow him a quick (or at least guaranteed) kill. Eve PvP is about teamwork, gangs and fleets, and it is here that Caldari ships perform very well. Let's quickly review a few caldari advantages:

1. RELIABLE DAMAGE PROJECTION. Missiles might not do the peak DPS of other weapons, but the damage they do is good, they always hit, and at long range. Do not underestimate how powerful this is.

2. EWAR. Most Caldari warships have the option of adding EWAR modules at the cost of a minor reduction in their tank. Lets compare a squad of 5 drakes to a squad of five nano-canes: While maintaining a comparable or superior tank these 5 drakes can bring five long points and TEN aditional EWAR mods (webs, painters, dampeners, tracking disruptors, etc); the nano-canes brought only their 5 long points.

3. ECM. Caldari are the masters here obviously. With good prior intel a single falcon can potentially knock an entire enemy squad out of action. It's not always reliable, nor should it be, but it's a tool a good caldari pilot has available that no other race has.

4. UNPREDICTABILITY. Is it a HML nano drake? A HAM drake? Or is it fitted with a pack of neuts and AMLs? Only one way to find out, and if you guess wrong you have a problem.

5. OVER-CONFIDENCE: Let's face it, when viewed individually or even as ship classes, Caldari warships are never the best and often the worst. The have perhaps the worst frigates, AFs, cruisers, and battleships in the game. Many people even scoff at the drake and cerberus. Let them! Use your advantages and their overconfidence to destroy them. Here's a couple exmples:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13211627
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13074030

SUMMARY: Every race in the game is very very good. Every race brings something to the table. Caldari are no exception.

NoLimit Soldier
Posted - 2011.07.20 16:36:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: NoLimit Soldier on 20/07/2011 16:41:52
Originally by: OT Smithers


http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13211627
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13074030

SUMMARY: Every race in the game is very very good. Every race brings something to the table. Caldari are no exception.



Holy crap you killed a frigate hull in a cruiser. I'm not sure if you are trolling or not.

Caldari are not "unpredictable" in fact you pretty much give up your fit as soon as the first missile hits.

The only thing you said that I agree with is that people will engage caldari solo, and with good reason.

Here are a few kills from my board recently that prove your point. All being AT LEAST the same hull size and caldari solo kills. (which by the way there is a lot more solo besides 1vs1 honor fights, just solo isn't 1vs1, its 1vs MANY.)

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=11868633
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13745336
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13232226
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13226347
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=12848576
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13745053
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13727542
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13578647
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13398387






Chatgrus
Posted - 2011.07.20 23:25:00 - [18]
 

I recommend the railgun ferox.

Trixie Smithers
Posted - 2011.07.21 13:26:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Trixie Smithers on 21/07/2011 13:26:32

OT Smithers
Posted - 2011.07.21 13:29:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: NoLimit Soldier


Holy crap you killed a frigate hull in a cruiser. I'm not sure if you are trolling or not.


The point was that even the lowly Osprey is deadly with proper tactics. This is a lesson that YOU already understand or you wouldn't be ranked as you are. Others might not.

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2011.07.21 21:37:00 - [21]
 

And then there's the ECM ships. Rook is my favorite Caldari ship.

Zonneschijn
Viperfleet Inc.
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2011.07.22 06:23:00 - [22]
 

train autocannons, seriously

lets say you take the moa or ferox,
they both have a bonus to shield resist.
use this.
buffer your shield, gyro's/TE's in the lows, ac's/neut in the high's

let's surprise someone Twisted Evil





Muad 'dib
Caldari
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.07.22 14:17:00 - [23]
 

I saw an Arty ferox the other day, true story.

Get a tengu, they are great.

CARB0N FIBER
Posted - 2011.07.22 17:57:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Muad 'dib
I saw an Arty ferox the other day, true story.

Get a tengu, they are great.



^Killed my arty ferox the other day, true story.^

Jude Lloyd
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.07.22 18:50:00 - [25]
 

Rook.
Merlin.
Drake.
Tengu.
Falcon.
Crow.
Basilisk.


All the king in thier class... Except maybe the Merlin is outmatched by a good Rifter.

Also, an Autocannon Ferox fits well and fights well in gang work.

Diesel47
Posted - 2011.07.23 04:55:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Diesel47 on 23/07/2011 05:06:04
Originally by: NoLimit Soldier
Crash course in caldari pvp: (caldari pvp sucks btw)

Kestrel - Tough to fit fully (web kiting setup requires AWU V or dropping to best named launchers) but kite at edge of scram range for as long as possible. Not fast enough to keep the distance, and it turns into a EHP/DPS race. Don't go MWD + standard, it doesn't have the cap and the DRF of standards is a little to high.

Merlin - You either fit a web so they can't get away and lose as your EHP/DPS isn't enough or you tank it and they can disengage. I personally active tank with AC so you can bait them into your armor/structure as they won't disengage until its to late.

Coromoant - I've seen a pretty funny setup where they put rails on it and tagged an inty at 100km that was "scouting". Outclassed by the thrasher BAD.

Caracal - Great damage projection, terrible speed. Can't fit HAMs and tank, horrible cap, fit HML and e-war (damps) and come in at range. Fleet only ship. (And any one who says "its the best anti frigate cruiser" REALLY REALLY needs to fly a vexor or ruppy)

Blackbird - Fit a rack full of jammers, (or -1 for mwd) and SDA's and distance rigs. Come in at insane distance and pre-align, let the jammers lose, if you take damage, warp off. Fleet only ship.

Moa - This thing sucks.

Ferox - This thing sucks.

Drake - Ham brick or dual nano are both decent fits, but has a horrible time catching anything smaller than it and not many people with 1vs1 BCs with you and its to fat to go a ship class up. One of the more balanced caldari ships. (and one of the only that can go toe to toe with racial counter parts and win)

Scorp - See blackbird, EXACT SAME THING.

Raven - Use a typhoon instead if you like torps. It has better EHP, half the cost, and fits neuts. Raven is mainly only good for being a warp in hammer. heavy neut fit is interesting though but I haven't tested it.

Rokh - never flown it, never been afraid of it.

Hawk - if setup for kiting can be a decent AF killler, for ALL other uses, the Jag out performs it in speed / tank / damage.

Harpy - Blarpy is supposed to be good.

Cerb - This things sucks

Eagle - This thing sucks

Rook - The best ship period for small gang in my opinion. Solo boss setup or blackbird it out (range rigs + pre-align + bring the rain) useless once the enemy has battleships or more than 10 people.

Falcon - Cloaky scouty version of the rook.

Nighthawk - An expensive cool looking drake, literally only a 10% performance gain over a drake for a lot more money. Can be fun to play around in.

Tengu - Probaly the greatest thing to happen to caldari. I'm fine with having crappy ships because we have this thing.


That should be enough for now. In short Recon/BC/T3 are the only 3 places where caldari PVP is best in class.






Agree w/ almost everything besides the web merlin not having enough EHP/DPS to kill things. You are not flying them correctly.

Scorp is not the "EXACT SAME THING" as a blackbird. It has considerable more jamming range which makes it the ultimate ECM ship. It comes in at 125kms optimal and jams every rook, falcon, and BB on the field because of range.

Drake with competent pilot and skirmish links becomes a monster. Basically becomes "long pointing, fast, best damage projection, huge tank" Same cannot be done with other BCs to the extent it can with drake. Simply overpowered.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.07.23 06:04:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Diesel47
Drake with competent pilot and skirmish links becomes a monster. Basically becomes "long pointing, fast, best damage projection, huge tank" Same cannot be done with other BCs to the extent it can with drake. Simply overpowered.


Your typical nanodrake sacrifices the DC2 for a second nano. It also gives up a large chunk of it's tank for dual webs. Configured as such, it's somewhere in the region of 45K EHP (w/o bonuses), the same as a shield Cane, Harb or Brutix.

Diesel47
Posted - 2011.07.23 06:16:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Diesel47
Drake with competent pilot and skirmish links becomes a monster. Basically becomes "long pointing, fast, best damage projection, huge tank" Same cannot be done with other BCs to the extent it can with drake. Simply overpowered.


Your typical nanodrake sacrifices the DC2 for a second nano. It also gives up a large chunk of it's tank for dual webs. Configured as such, it's somewhere in the region of 45K EHP (w/o bonuses), the same as a shield Cane, Harb or Brutix.


Actually 55k with 100 dps passive tank. With bonuses goes to 70k. That aside... What was your point again?

Nimrod Nemesis
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.07.23 06:33:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis on 23/07/2011 06:34:46
Originally by: Diesel47
Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Diesel47
Drake with competent pilot and skirmish links becomes a monster. Basically becomes "long pointing, fast, best damage projection, huge tank" Same cannot be done with other BCs to the extent it can with drake. Simply overpowered.


Your typical nanodrake sacrifices the DC2 for a second nano. It also gives up a large chunk of it's tank for dual webs. Configured as such, it's somewhere in the region of 45K EHP (w/o bonuses), the same as a shield Cane, Harb or Brutix.


Actually 55k with 100 dps passive tank. With bonuses goes to 70k. That aside... What was your point again?


Did you pull those numbers out of your ass all by yourself or did you get someone to help?

Hint: I bolded the important parts you might have missed. I can only assume you used a fail-fit overtanked drake for point of comparison.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.07.23 07:01:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 23/07/2011 07:07:00
Originally by: Diesel47
Actually 55k with 100 dps passive tank. With bonuses goes to 70k. That aside... What was your point again?


http://i.imgur.com/bBvH0.jpg
Image changed to a link. Spitfire

My point was that in order to be viable against other BCs and as a solopwnboat, it has to sacrifice it's tank. A long point brick Drake can't hold anything it catches, a scram brick Drake can only get in range to apply it's scram rarely... unless it's a scram web Harb/Cane and while it probably wins that 1v1, it loses when his buddies land and he's still locked in.


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