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Shasz
Angels of Anarchy
Posted - 2011.07.22 18:31:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Abrazzar
Well, that still doesn't fix that shortcuts are only applied to the activated window (or space) and not globally, like targeting, or drone commands.


I think I know what you mean, but can you give some concrete examples so I can be certain?


Oh my - someone is paying attention to this finally! I submitted a bug report on this but I think it got ignored.

The ctrl-key (or tilde if you change it I suppose) no longer works as a meta key, it works as a hotkey. The difference is in sensing the PUSH (Keydown or Keyup event) of the key rather than the STATUS of the key.

Examples:
Scenario 1:
Dual boxing (or just playing one client with some other program window open as "client 1"). Windows focus is on client 1, hold CTRL key down, click on overview of client 2.

Result past: Windows focus transfers to client 2. You start targetting whatever you clicked on in the overview.

RESULT NOW: Windows focus transfer to client 2. Nothing else. Ctrl key is ignored - you just selected the overview instead.



Scenario 2:
Single client. CTRL-Click on overview to target something, release mouse button, but keep CTRL key pressed. Now press the E key (CTRL-E is my drone engage hotkey combo).

Result past: You target the item on overview, drones engage.

RESULT NOW: You target the item on overview, drones do nothing (Hotkey isn't triggered - you have to release and re-push the CTRL key)


Please oh please oh please fix or poke the person responsible for this so that they might fix it?

Please? :)

Thanks!

CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.07.22 18:33:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Bootleg Jack
Wrong, it changed from KEYUP to KEYDOWN in the last patch, it's a bug, read my explanation above.

Remapping it is a workaround for a CODE ISSUE.



Personally, I think it's poor behavior to have modifier keys do functional things on key up *or* key down, but I'll pass that along to the UI guys all the same.

CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.07.22 18:34:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: De'Veldrin
So is the official stance "work around our crap code" then? I just want to know what to tell any friends who might express an interest in your game.


I'm not in the business of making official stances. I'm just a programmer trying to help y'all.

ChaseTheLasers
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
Posted - 2011.07.22 18:37:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Hi there gents.

Ran into this myself enough while multi-boxing...


On the topic of overviews and multi-boxing, would you be kind enough to see if CCP Optical had chance to look at This please?

The game is still picking up click fine, but it's not locking as it should (and used to).

Thanks for your time.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.07.22 18:42:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: De'Veldrin
So is the official stance "work around our crap code" then? I just want to know what to tell any friends who might express an interest in your game.


I'm not in the business of making official stances. I'm just a programmer trying to help y'all.


Thanks for helping out, I think few people realize that each and every individual developer is not responsible for a million lines of code all by themselves, nor has likely even seen but a small fraction of it in any meaningful context.

It is probably a bad thing that any blue bar people see, they automatically assume is some omniscient post that is written in stone, sealed in some cave somewhere, and can only be read once every hundred years as some sort of proclamation of divine will.

You probably have not even seen the code they keep yammering about, yet they think you're the expert by default, lol...

People are silly!

Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
Posted - 2011.07.22 18:54:00 - [66]
 

Bug report:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1554944

To those who think I was "mean" to the mod for telling him he is wrong, grow up, if you are wrong, you are wrong, it is not a personal insult. Because he volunteered his time, which I have as well, doesn't make him immue to being corrected if he makes an incorrect find on a bug.


Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.07.22 19:16:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 22/07/2011 19:16:25
Originally by: Bootleg Jack
Bug report:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1554944

To those who think I was "mean" to the mod for telling him he is wrong, grow up, if you are wrong, you are wrong, it is not a personal insult. Because he volunteered his time, which I have as well, doesn't make him immue to being corrected if he makes an incorrect find on a bug.




No, but I guess not everybody can have tact.

Texty
Posted - 2011.07.22 19:19:00 - [68]
 

I've remapped locking to "T" and unlocking to "R".
Works nice Very Happy

Shasz
Angels of Anarchy
Posted - 2011.07.22 19:43:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Bootleg Jack
Wrong, it changed from KEYUP to KEYDOWN in the last patch, it's a bug, read my explanation above.

Remapping it is a workaround for a CODE ISSUE.



Personally, I think it's poor behavior to have modifier keys do functional things on key up *or* key down, but I'll pass that along to the UI guys all the same.


Exactly!

/me crosses his fingers that the UI guys will get it too...

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2011.07.22 21:13:00 - [70]
 

Ctrl, Alt, and Shift are all modifier keys. They shouldn't do anything on their own. Fix it already. Or allow for key combination in the hot key settings at the very least.

Asm Khurelem
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.22 21:37:00 - [71]
 

This. Needs. Fixed.
Even VB6 programmers don't make this sort of mistake... (Ok, maybe I lie, but...)

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2011.07.22 21:50:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Lady Spank
Edited by: Lady Spank on 19/07/2011 16:52:24
Put it back how it was, it's really getting on my tėts thanks.

Edit: You used to be able to freeze the overview with ctrl, then click on targets you wished to lock without them jumping all over the place. Now you get a pot luck item targeted plus what you wanted.

When you only have a limited number of target slots (frig) and are trying to initiate a fight as effectively as possible, you don't want to have the damned interface working against you as well. If even 5 seconds of a < 1m fight are spent farting about because of a terribly unintuitive design implementation it's really frustrating.

In a fleet fight, yellow boxing the wrong enemy can get you primaried and killed, not much fun when it's primarily due to a disastrous keyboard short-cut.

Thanks Razz


That.

Asm Khurelem
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.22 22:20:00 - [73]
 

Just as an example, the game tells me to use ALT-F1 to use my salvager in second row.

I now press ALT-F1, and suddenly, camera views wreck while salvaging.

Rage ensues. :(

CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.07.22 22:27:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Asm Khurelem
Just as an example, the game tells me to use ALT-F1 to use my salvager in second row.

I now press ALT-F1, and suddenly, camera views wreck while salvaging.

Rage ensues. :(


Yep, same thing. If you change the binding for "Look At" to something else, or empty it if you never use it, you'll stop looking at incredibly interesting wrecks.

Asm Khurelem
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.22 22:54:00 - [75]
 

So, your recommendation is to... disable useful functionality(or at least change from the broken defaults), instead of just changing what is likely to be at most a small change on a few lines of code to fix a bug...? :s

CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.07.22 23:18:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Asm Khurelem
So, your recommendation is to... disable useful functionality(or at least change from the broken defaults), instead of just changing what is likely to be at most a small change on a few lines of code to fix a bug...? :s


Your estimate, unfortunately, is off.

Asm Khurelem
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.22 23:41:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Asm Khurelem on 22/07/2011 23:42:09
If I set up a key shortcut on ALT, it is triggered when I use ALT and other keys.

This (I believe)isn't correct behaviour, and it previously didn't happen(unless I'm extremely confused :)).

Is this really what's intended?

edit: Because I don't understand backslashes :D

Geksz
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.22 23:43:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Geksz on 22/07/2011 23:46:50
We were using these shortcuts for years. In one of the UI related patches something changed the behaviour of the button presses and releases. CCP haven't changed the shortcut maps, maybe they weren't aware of the change themselves.

If so then i think this is a bug.

If it is intended, it is a very bad feature IMHO.

Pls. do something to get us back the old functionality of the modifier keys!

On a sidenote: We are getting too much workarounds rather then having fixes for the problems...


Cashcow Golden Goose
Posted - 2011.07.23 00:05:00 - [79]
 

Carbon UI might look great on your CVs but all the delays the non carbon ui had are now all 1.5-2 seconds longer. And of course the inexplicable delay before a window closes, sometimes reaching 5 seconds.
And crazy control clicks, and crazy clicks clicking module next to the one you clicked on, and crazy not bothering to respond to the click at all, the list goes on.

When your customer cry and whine for you to change something, please ignore them, because you typically just make it worse. Leave it the **** alone before it reaches completely unplayable.

Wreckar
Posted - 2011.07.23 01:33:00 - [80]
 

Dev obviously doesn't play the game or the problem would be glaringly obvious.

When you hold a combination key such as target or lookat, before you've even clicked anything it's interpreted it as a keypress command and acted as such.

Scenario:

I warp to a gate and select it in overview and set an orbit, I then press and hold ctrl while clicking some targets in overview, then activate my guns so they fire asap on the first locked target. I end up shooting the gate.

If any object is selected in overview and the overview is active when you start holding target/lookat key prior to clicking on what you actually want to target/lookat the first object will be targetted/lookedat before you've clicked anything.






Palovana
Caldari
Inner Fire Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.23 01:43:00 - [81]
 

I've changed four settings from their defaults. Sucks that we have to do this but it beats getting CONCORDOKKEN by accidentally targetting the wrong thing.

Show Info changed from "T" to "I"
Look at changed from ALT to "L"
Lock Target changed from CTRL to "T"
Unlock Target changed from CTRL-SHIFT to "U"

These all make sense in my head (Info, Look, Target, Untarget). Your mileage and language may vary.


Shasz
Angels of Anarchy
Posted - 2011.07.23 01:50:00 - [82]
 

Scenario 3:

Click station on overview, right click approach. When you're ready to stop, hit CTRL-Space to stop your ship.

OOPS, you've targeted the station now because of the broken CTRL key.

-

I just tried clearing the targeting hotkey, but then the old CTRL-Click on overview is gone along with the broken CTRL (only) hotkey to target.

Please forward this on to the UI team so it can be addressed.

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2011.07.23 02:20:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: De'Veldrin
So is the official stance "work around our crap code" then? I just want to know what to tell any friends who might express an interest in your game.


I'm not in the business of making official stances. I'm just a programmer trying to help y'all.
I'm not trying to give you all crap or anything on this one. I actually like the option for hot keys. Could we at least get it so that we can assign key combos? Alt click to view worked just fine. Ctrl space for stop is good. Ctrl click for lock, great. But just control??? Not good.

Wreckar
Posted - 2011.07.23 02:21:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Palovana
I've changed four settings from their defaults. Sucks that we have to do this but it beats getting CONCORDOKKEN by accidentally targetting the wrong thing.

Show Info changed from "T" to "I"
Look at changed from ALT to "L"
Lock Target changed from CTRL to "T"
Unlock Target changed from CTRL-SHIFT to "U"

These all make sense in my head (Info, Look, Target, Untarget). Your mileage and language may vary.




The only problem with doing that is the great thing about using ctrl / alt is that they work even if for some reason you've still got corp chat window focused. I love sending my corpies a page full of S when I've tried to warp to something with chat in focus.

Palovana
Caldari
Inner Fire Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.23 03:57:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Wreckar
Originally by: Palovana
I've changed four settings from their defaults. Sucks that we have to do this but it beats getting CONCORDOKKEN by accidentally targetting the wrong thing.

Show Info changed from "T" to "I"
Look at changed from ALT to "L"
Lock Target changed from CTRL to "T"
Unlock Target changed from CTRL-SHIFT to "U"

These all make sense in my head (Info, Look, Target, Untarget). Your mileage and language may vary.




The only problem with doing that is the great thing about using ctrl / alt is that they work even if for some reason you've still got corp chat window focused. I love sending my corpies a page full of S when I've tried to warp to something with chat in focus.



Good point, and I have also found myself wondering why I'm not targetting anything while in a mission, only to see tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt all over the chat window - or I still instinctively CTRL-click rather frequently - roughly 3 years of habit.

I hope it's fixed soon, rather than Soon™.

Mongo Edwards
Posted - 2011.07.23 06:03:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Mongo Edwards on 23/07/2011 06:11:18
I think what you are actually looking for to switch "focus" is ctrl+tab. This functions the same way as alt+tab in the windows environment so just alt tab out of your chat/drones/cargo hold or whatever and then all your hotkeys work. To stop yourself from targeting every random thing by pressing ctrl you can literally click on any other box or module in the UI and it prevents targeting as soon as you press ctrl.

That was the last of the truly constructive part.

I fly my ships mostly off my keyboard and I rarely have any issues targeting/looking at random things. I personally like how things are evolving and while the changes appear to be quirky it really is better than context menu's and a few hotkeys. Of all the actual issues in this game this one is so incredibly minor it is hardly worth mentioning. I mean we have stations whose undock is literally pointed at a moon (less than 100km for a few of them), borked ship balance, terrible session change timers (why on earth do I have to wait to jump systems if I make it to a gate less than 30 seconds after undocking!), bouncing off planets, antiquated aggression mechanics, and my favorite getting stuck 'inside' a LCO and not being able to get out. Another slightly annoying thing (mostly cause I'm OCD about this stuff) the time stamp on the forums -for me- is yyyy.mm.dd but when you reply to the topic the time stamp becomes dd/mm/yyyy.

Also, please don't be rude to the devs we have a hard enough time getting them to write on these forums. In this case CCP Veritas (btw keep up the good work on lag) was just giving you his player perspective and advice on how to get around it - isn't that why you made this thread? I mean if you didn't want a response/workaround you wouldn't have made it right?

Ava n'Daara
Posted - 2011.07.23 06:20:00 - [87]
 

CCP Veritas, you're way out to lunch on this issue.

The keybindings have been there for ages and they worked correctly. This is a bug along the same lines of the past sticky keys (hold down CTRL for example and the game treats it as pressed even if you let it up until you hit another key). Or when we couldn't hit, say, 's' with the overview focused without clicking in order to warp.

Someone has recently broken basic behaviour rules of modifier keys. It's as simple as that.

Telling us to remap our keys from your own long-established and perfectly functional keymap is absurd.

And no, I doubt his time/effort estimate is off at all.. it really does look like a keydown/keyup issue and that can be search/replaced in moments. Forget the fact that whoever did this is probably well aware of the precise location(s) of the change and how to revert it.

Stop blaming the community for and/or telling us to adapt to your bugs.

Weeble Tauri
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.23 07:20:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Ava n'Daara
CCP Veritas, you're way out to lunch on this issue.

The keybindings have been there for ages and they worked correctly. This is a bug along the same lines of the past sticky keys (hold down CTRL for example and the game treats it as pressed even if you let it up until you hit another key). Or when we couldn't hit, say, 's' with the overview focused without clicking in order to warp.

Someone has recently broken basic behaviour rules of modifier keys. It's as simple as that.

Telling us to remap our keys from your own long-established and perfectly functional keymap is absurd.

And no, I doubt his time/effort estimate is off at all.. it really does look like a keydown/keyup issue and that can be search/replaced in moments. Forget the fact that whoever did this is probably well aware of the precise location(s) of the change and how to revert it.

Stop blaming the community for and/or telling us to adapt to your bugs.


Don't put all the blame on Veritas, he's just trying to tell us how to get it to something like it was before, since he doesn't have UI control.

Though this needs to be changed back, and if CCP Optimal is so intent on this, give us the option of one or the other.

Ava n'Daara
Posted - 2011.07.23 07:54:00 - [89]
 

I'm not pinning this all on Veritas, I'm just making a point that this is the wrong way to go about the issue.

Also expressing my continued annoyance with the increasing number of in-your-face bugs that CCP can't seem to be bothered to fix in a timely manner if at all (ie: drones).

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.07.23 09:38:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Shasz
Scenario 3:

Click station on overview, right click approach. When you're ready to stop, hit CTRL-Space to stop your ship.

OOPS, you've targeted the station now because of the broken CTRL key.

This is probably the clearest example so far.

Think of the NPE:
A new player using the default keybindings will say that the game is broken because the key commands don't do what they should.


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