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Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.07.21 15:11:00 - [31]
 

Jesarey,

Yeah, Angels are a little tougher to tank but ... that doesn't really start to matter until you're doing Level III missions as the Level I & II rats should be easy to kill. Or at least it seems so this far. I've got a number of Amarr, Caldari & Gallente characters I've brought up as Mission runners (in addition to my miners) but all my Minmatar ones up to now have been miners. So we'll see how it goes but it's going well so far.

For this character, I've been trying not to mine. The idea was to test how well it worked bringing her up without mining ... though I was so cash starved I broke down and did a little to begin with. Without spending any training time on mining - I looked at the market - saw which nearby system had the best price on Dense Veldspar - went over there and did mine & return until I had the 20k to buy a Burst (piece of ****) then did mine & return with that just to build up some cash. I can tell you I was making more money doing that than I was doing the New Player Experience course or the Career Funnel Missions. That's why I did it. After I started those missions all I did was loot & salvage and almost all the money I had came from that. I normally mine those missions (with my mining alts) so I've rarely had the cash flow problems I've got now with this character.

When I have brought up a mining character on their own ... mining those career agent missions got me a lot more money than doing the missions. As I said - mining in mission space - I can jet can mine all I want and ... knock on wood ... haven't been can flipped in mission space yet. That means that until I've mined out the belt - I don't have to turn off the lasers until I've done all the mining I want. Since I can just dump the ore to a new jet can if one of them is getting old - I can stay out there as long as I want. Once I've got all my mining done - I bookmark the jet cans - warp back and turn in the mission. Once the mission is done - I don't have to go through any gates - I can just warp right to my cans and use a tractor beam on any of them within 20k. So the indy hardly has to do any traveling out of warp. I put a 10mn AB on it - but mostly I can just warp right to the cans if they're farther away than the tractor can reach. So - even solo mining - by jet can mining in mission space - I can pull in a good bit of ore.

Now yes - eventually I have to turn the lasers off and haul - but that's like salvaging when I'm done running all the missions I want to run. It's clean up and it really doesn't take that long.


But yes - mining really does benefit from team work.

Where having a hauling alt really helps - is if you're paranoid about being scanned down (and I am kind of paranoid) - and don't want to leave all those jet can's laying all over your mission space - or - you're mining in belts. Then - I just put a bookmark in a jet can to keep it open - and immediately take the ore into the hauler. If someone makes a run at my can - it's easy to pull the bookmark and pop it, then just wait for them to leave. That works well with a few characters but past that ... it doesn't ... A bunch of miners all clustered around a hauler ... not good ...

Anyway, since they've consolidated and restricted the agent functions things have changed and while I'm still relatively sure that mining beats mission running early in the game - I can't say at what point Mission Running becomes more profitable (which on a solo bases - yes it eventually does). But that's one of the reasons I'm working this new character, to see how that works out.

Before - you didn't know if you were going to get a courier or combat mission for many agents. Now you know. Of course you still don't know if the next one's going to be one of those fly two jumps over and kill 3 guys missions or Worlds Collide ...

*shrug*

.

Jesarey
Posted - 2011.07.21 15:27:00 - [32]
 

*shrug*
Well, whatever works for you.

We seem to be getting into details too much. Mining is profitable when done right, but its a actually a bit more complicated than most people think. You know that, i see that from your posts. But OP doesnt. And I dont see any point for someone to mine, unless they are going to become a career miner.

Anyway, OP, here you go, plenty of advice written in above posts, and I honestly dont think I can come up with more.

BTW, Tosh, first time i went to the bonus room of lvl 4 Angel Extravaganza, i nearly crapped my pants :p Angel rats do hurt.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.07.21 18:22:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Jesarey
*shrug*
Well, whatever works for you.

We seem to be getting into details too much. Mining is profitable when done right, but its a actually a bit more complicated than most people think. You know that, i see that from your posts. But OP doesnt. And I dont see any point for someone to mine, unless they are going to become a career miner.

Anyway, OP, here you go, plenty of advice written in above posts, and I honestly dont think I can come up with more.

BTW, Tosh, first time i went to the bonus room of lvl 4 Angel Extravaganza, i nearly crapped my pants :p Angel rats do hurt.



Yeah, like I said ... I don't know what his skill set is. I only mentioned mining since he said he'd already been doing it. If he was looking for the money for a Battle Cruiser and hadn't said that - I wouldn't have mentioned it.

The thing a lot of people don't realize is that mining and mission running are not mutually exclusive. Someone who is a dedicated Mission Runner may well have no need or desire to mine - but I've ended up running missions with a lot of my miners who were trying to gain standings to help with their refines and manufacturing.


As to Level IV Angels ... yeah ... I've heard about Angel Extravaganza and (when I get there) ... I might just bring some friends for that ... I'll bet those rats do hurt ...






Now ... as a general comment addressed to no one in particular ...

I am not saying there is one right way to play EVE.

Blitzing through your missions - is certainly a route you can go. The disadvantage of that route - is that you're depending on some pitiful funding sources for your income. Thus, people like the OP getting to the point they could use a Battle Cruiser but not having the money for it. *shrug*

Other people who've spent more time raising funds - might not have progressed as fast in their agent standings - especially if they hadn't learned some of the tricks to make things such as salvaging go faster. That's one of the reasons I mentioned ways of making salvaging more effective.

And - there are all kinds of other things you can do, such as many of the other suggestions mentioned in these posts.


As I've said before - there is no "best" way to play EVE. There are just choices which have advantages and disadvantages. How you play and what you do - are up to you.

If I've not made my case well enough for the viability of options I've suggested - then by all means - do something else.

What's important - is to know what your options are - and then make up your own mind as to what you think will work out best for you.

.




.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.07.22 10:05:00 - [34]
 

Toshiro ..

Simple question here.

What is your rough ISK/hr (per character) for mining?
What is your rough ISK/hr (per character) for level 4 mission running?

I just want to clear up that you're not an epic failure.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.07.22 11:20:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 22/07/2011 11:51:35
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Toshiro ..

Simple question here.

What is your rough ISK/hr (per character) for mining?
What is your rough ISK/hr (per character) for level 4 mission running?

I just want to clear up that you're not an epic failure.



Ha! Ha!

Are you asking me which news papers I read every day Katie?

If you think I'm going to try and figure that out for all the characters I've got just to satisfy your curiosity - you've got another think coming.

Do you know those figures for each of YOUR characters?


Besides which ... I don't play this game to tote up how many ISK per hour I'm making - I play it to have fun. If you're one of those people - who equate isk/hr with success ... then ... I pity you.

Now ... don't get me wrong. Understanding how well one of your characters is doing and understanding if they are doing better or worse when you try something different - that is a useful practice and - if making ISK is the primary purpose of their activity - a useful measurement but only in comparison with their previous efforts - and then - only if you can actually isolate their improvements from other variables - such as other players.

For Example - you've got six miners, one guy in an Orca and two guys hauling from the Orca to the station so the Orca can stay and provide group support. Each of the miners has different skills, possibly different ship fittings and very possibly different ships. All the ore gets dumped into the same place in the hangar - where possibly yet another character - because of their standings with that station and their refining skills - reprocesses the ore into minerals - and THEN - yet another character or characters possibly haul the minerals to market - where one of them actually sells the minerals and turns them into ISK. Now ... you tell me - how many ISK/hr. did the guy flying the Bestower make as opposed to the guy flying the Mammoth? Their contribution to the op was substantial - yet they produced no ore themselves. Same thing with the guy who refined it.

Now ... take two guys who both have access to Level IV Agents and each has a Drake to run missions for those Level IV agents in support of each other - but - they got access to those agents by increasing their standings - not so they could run missions - but so they could improve their industrial output - cause even though they did run a bunch of missions ... they aren't really mission runners ... they're really guys who are researching data cores - not to sell - but to use in manufacturing T2 ships and their equipment. Now ... how does THAT tell you what their ISK/hr. is?

Different people have different conditions they are working under so trying to figure out their ACTUAL ISK/hr. isn't that easy to do. I suspect that most of the ISK/hr. figures people throw around (even if they are sincere about it) are actually bull ****.



And - lastly - your questions are irrelevant. AS I HAVE SAID any number of times - what matters is how each person in this game is doing based on their situation and their goals in the game - not how I or anyone else is doing in comparison.

It's not a contest - and you and I are NOT here to win it. We are here to provide information from our experiences - that others can take and use as THEY see fit. How many ISK/hr. you or I make doesn't matter. What matters is if someone can take our information and use it so that they can improve their game play.

You've got your opinions - I've got mine - and all the other people who post here have there's. People reading this can choose what they think is applicable to themselves and make use of it.

No one should ever do anything just because someone on the forums told them to do it. They should THINK about what they read and decide if what they've read is applicable to THEM. After all - the person posting on the forum isn't going to pay the price for what they do.

.

Keno Skir
Posted - 2011.07.22 12:04:00 - [36]
 

Seems like this is now a thread for you two to puff yourselves up in front of the new guys, what if we just tell u ur both really cool? :/

Karl, contact me in game for trade advice that should take you to 4-5mil per hour relatively quickly.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.07.22 12:22:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 22/07/2011 11:51:35
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Toshiro ..

Simple question here.

What is your rough ISK/hr (per character) for mining?
What is your rough ISK/hr (per character) for level 4 mission running?

I just want to clear up that you're not an epic failure.



Ha! Ha!

Are you asking me which news papers I read every day Katie?

If you think I'm going to try and figure that out for all the characters I've got just to satisfy your curiosity - you've got another think coming.


Yeah, I had no interest in your figures, I just wanted to prove a point. You're sitting there going "blah blah blah" about how to make money, contradicting the advice of people who ABSOLUTELY HAVE worked it out (including the veritable Akita T) but you don't even know where your OWN isk is coming from, or what the most efficient way of acquiring it is for yourself.

*shrug*

Quote:
Different people have different conditions they are working under so trying to figure out their ACTUAL ISK/hr. isn't that easy to do. I suspect that most of the ISK/hr. figures people throw around (even if they are sincere about it) are actually bull ****.

One last time. ISK made / time taken = ISK/hr (day, minute .. whatever you want) there is NOTHING complicated about it. If it takes you 5 hours to make 500mil ISK, you are running at 100mil ISK/hr. You don't have to factor in travel times .... YOU HAVE ALREADY ****ING DONE IT. Do you actually log in and play this game or do you just theorycraft bull**** on the forums?

I don't give a **** about your 500 word rambles on how you have fun doing this, that or the other. OP was asking how to make money. Your advice was absolutely, fundamentally and in every measurable way, wrong. He can work out how to have fun by himself. Hopefully it's in ganking you over and over.

Now **** off.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.07.22 13:08:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Keno Skir
Seems like this is now a thread for you two to puff yourselves up in front of the new guys, what if we just tell u ur both really cool? :/

...




Yeah, sorry about that. But that's not what it is on my part.

I regard myself as an average player who tries to help other people out with what I've learned about the game. Any time I'm able to do that I'm pleased but as I said above - no one should go out and do something just because I said so. They should think about all they've read and then make up their own mind.


Mostly Lady Go doesn't like me and we get into it. But that's all right ... I don't care much for her either.

It is to bad about the thread though.

I'd prefer this didn't happen.

What I'd advise other people to do when they see a couple of posters going at each other - is just scan the rest of the thread for other peoples posts and ignore the belligerents. That's what I do when I'm not one of them.


.

Himnos Altar
Gallente
Daisy Cutter's
Posted - 2011.07.22 13:51:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Interagent
Edited by: Interagent on 18/07/2011 16:45:09
Edited by: Interagent on 18/07/2011 16:44:22
Trade is also another option, as easy as buying low in one region and selling high in the other...usually you can expect 20-30% increase in the amount you invested in the first place..
Also PI is another thing, but you need skills for that, if you want to train for it you can easily make around 600-700kk a month spending just 10-20 minutes of your time every day. If you need some help and advice contact me ingame


PI is only making you 6-700k/month?

dude, I'm making roughly 6m/day with 20 minutes of work each day....PER ALT CHARACTER.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.07.22 14:25:00 - [40]
 

I assume "kk" meant thousand thousand, so that would be a mil?

600k would be ridiculously low.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.07.22 16:18:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher


...

Yeah, I had no interest in your figures, I just wanted to prove a point. You're sitting there going "blah blah blah" about how to make money, contradicting the advice of people who ABSOLUTELY HAVE worked it out (including the veritable Akita T) but you don't even know where your OWN isk is coming from, or what the most efficient way of acquiring it is for yourself.

*shrug*

Quote:
Different people have different conditions they are working under so trying to figure out their ACTUAL ISK/hr. isn't that easy to do. I suspect that most of the ISK/hr. figures people throw around (even if they are sincere about it) are actually bull ****.






Are you seriously giving me **** about not doing the bookkeeping for all my characters in a computer game?


Since you probably didn't notice - I already answered your little comment there.

If you've only got a few characters - it's probably easy to figure - but as I pointed out and you ignored - if you have a complex operation involving multiple people, you can know how much that particular op made per hour but doing the record keeping for everyone, indefinitely ... is a pain in the ass if you don't have to do it.

Have you ever run a mining op? Are you an industrialist?

Do you keep track of everyone's ore output?

As I said before - what about all the people who contributed - but don't have an actual measurable method of calculating their contribution?

Now there are any number of mining corporations and they all have methods of rewarding everyone so that everyone has a fair share (supposedly). If someone does that based on the corporations ISK/hr ... that's fine if they've got a nice book keeper but not everyone does it that way. Another way is to just give everyone an equal share but there are a lot of different ways of doing that too. You can keep track of who showed up for each mining op or you can just give everyone in the corporation part of the split. There are as many ways of doing that as there are corporations.


That's the problem with simplistic thinking. You come up with some silly little measurement that YOU think actually applies to the real world - and run around thinking how smart you are. That's fine if you've got one guy. But that's bull **** if you're using multiple people.

I don't know how many bean counters you've worked with IRL but I can tell you I've worked with a number of them - and mostly they're full of ****. I have seen them waste untold man hours tracking things - that didn't really need tracking - just so the bean counters would think they knew where every little penny went. What they couldn't see - was that the value of keeping the data wasn't as valuable as the time spent tracking it.

I don't know what familiarity you have with TQM or ISO 9000 but I can tell you that the best explanation of it's real value is located in Dilbert.



But - here you go thinking you're so smart - not taking transportation into account. Ha! Ha! Tell the guys hauling it that their time doesn't matter. They could be out hauling ore into the station - but instead they're hauling minerals to market. What's the opportunity cost of that?


Nothing is simple.

Electrons are complex.



If one guy wants to keep track of his ISK/hr. - then that's fine - and he can include whatever he wants - as it's his calculations. But to think that you can scale something like that up to include multiple people, with multiple skill levels, performing multiple tasks - without paying a professional book keeper (or having a really enthusiastic armature) to do it - is deluding yourself.


If there is someone out there who is keeping track of every little Point Zero One ISK that comes into or is spent by anyone and everyone in their corporation - then good for them ... but I wouldn't want to be in that corporation. I've done that **** in the real world and ... I'm not going to do it in a computer game.

.


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