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Jamyl the Great
Posted - 2011.07.18 03:45:00 - [1]
 

I've seen a lot of threads about them and how they are destroying the economy (I think?), but shouldn't it be easy to detect that kind of automation? Why is CCp having such a hard time cracking down on these guys?

CptConorado
Amarr
Vengeance Imperium
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2011.07.18 03:50:00 - [2]
 

Come here for a second... does this towel smell like chloroform to you?

Gerald Sphinx
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.07.18 03:54:00 - [3]
 

CCP is not the only one trying to trace the bots. Capsuleers who hunt them down have a tough time tracking them too. The reason behind this is simple: they get more clever with every expansion. Whatever change in code or mechanics CCP implements, the bot writers adapt their bot programs to these changes. In addition to that, bot users have adapted their bot patterns to match player patterns as close as possible.

Of course, that doesn't stop the bot hunters from adapting as well.

XIRUSPHERE
Gallente
Deadly Intent.
Posted - 2011.07.18 04:47:00 - [4]
 

Apathy for one, about the best thing you can do is look at dotlan for the systems with inhuman kill consistency and park a afk cloak there and leave it going when you go to work.
Did it for a few weeks to the ire of whomever a few particular bots belonged to.

I would log off and on in a dramiel in a belt because the bot would warp to pos upon entering system and would warp to a random belt when you left so you had a small window to catch them. Only ever caught one that way. I did manage to completely cover all belts in a 16 belt system with mobile warp disrupters and got some lovely hate mail for the effort from a russian guy.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.07.18 06:47:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Jamyl the Great
shouldn't it be easy to detect that kind of automation?

In the very first round of "the fight", maybe.
But that happened many years ago. And it's no longer the case.

Other than an actual conversation-based Turing-like light version test (and some could soon be able to pass even that), a bot could at least theoretically be made to be nearly indistinguishable from a genuine regular player.
And you really want to err on the side of caution - you wouldn't want to ban a legitimate player that's working his arse off...

The harder they look for bots and the more bad/obvious//know bots they catch, the smarter and harder to detect the remaining bots get, which they multiply again... it's literally almost like fighting the spread of a group of fast-evolving, drug-resistant diseases.

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.07.18 07:04:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Ciar Meara on 18/07/2011 07:04:42
Originally by: Akita T
In the very first round of "the fight", maybe.
But that happened many years ago. And it's no longer the case.

Other than an actual conversation-based Turing-like light version test (and some could soon be able to pass even that), a bot could at least theoretically be made to be nearly indistinguishable from a genuine regular player.
And you really want to err on the side of caution - you wouldn't want to ban a legitimate player that's working his arse off...

The harder they look for bots and the more bad/obvious//know bots they catch, the smarter and harder to detect the remaining bots get, which they multiply again... it's literally almost like fighting the spread of a group of fast-evolving, drug-resistant diseases.


Lets not go overboard here, skynet has not been launched and the war against the machines has not begun. The people making these bots are not making bots that beat the turing tests.
I do believe there is better money then virtual ISK sales and aurum to be made if guys are able to to that.

Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.07.18 07:12:00 - [7]
 

CCP just needs to add a system scanner on launch. They hunt down all botting programs, revoke the use of ghosting, and simply scan for said bots during start up. It wouldn't take very long, and I'm sure none of us non botters would mind it? Wink

Waiting for the incoming "you can't do that it's against our privacy rights!". In which case I say "Did you read the updated eula that put this in effect to protect the interests of CCP. And their right to the revenue generated by said game and copyrights/trademarks they own?" If this were to be put into effect that is.

This would effectively force botters to constantly make new software, which in turn would be hunted down. Eventually making it more costly to run a botting network/program. Unfortunately we would probably end up with an ISK sweatshop. Much like you see with gold farmers in world of warcraft. But at least they are active and there. If that is any consolation at all...

Walextheone
The Red Circle Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.18 07:25:00 - [8]
 

It's so easy making new accounts. Seems like CCP constantly finds and ban bots but the regain rate is about the same.

Def Antares
Posted - 2011.07.18 07:47:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Digital Messiah


Waiting for the incoming "you can't do that it's against our privacy rights!". In which case I say "Did you read the updated eula that put this in effect to protect the interests of CCP. And their right to the revenue generated by said game and copyrights/trademarks they own?" If this were to be put into effect that is.




maybe ccp should just improve their client encryption and obfucscation before just scanning our computers? which would not work anyway, because processes can be hidden.

Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.07.18 07:53:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Def Antares
Originally by: Digital Messiah


Waiting for the incoming "you can't do that it's against our privacy rights!". In which case I say "Did you read the updated eula that put this in effect to protect the interests of CCP. And their right to the revenue generated by said game and copyrights/trademarks they own?" If this were to be put into effect that is.




maybe ccp should just improve their client encryption and obfucscation before just scanning our computers? which would not work anyway, because processes can be hidden.
I guess encryption would work better. It isn't about hiding the processes. It is about finding the files themselves. Which I guess can be worked around as well. Either way, something needs to be done.

If a company much like anti-virus companies were to start popping up. That solely made programs to help secure major MMO developers from bot's. I suspect they would make quite a lot of money doing it. Seeing as the current system of hiring on people to secure their games isn't exactly working.

Stemax
Gallente
Steel Wall
Posted - 2011.07.18 08:42:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Digital Messiah

If a company much like anti-virus companies were to start popping up. That solely made programs to help secure major MMO developers from bot's. I suspect they would make quite a lot of money doing it. Seeing as the current system of hiring on people to secure their games isn't exactly working.


There are many such companies PunkBuster or HackShield or even VAC just to name a few. Maybe CCP could partner with one.

Cashcow Golden Goose
Posted - 2011.07.18 08:46:00 - [12]
 

Small problem.

Eve is boring if you have to supply your own industrial, acquistion and logistical backbones.
At least acquisition can be botted to make the industrial and logistical into merely an alts job.

You see how many people are prepared to put in 23 hours mining a day for nice cheap "hardcore" pvp funs.
Oh that's right. Nobody.

People are already massively pappering their kecks at the thought of losing some 1s and 0s on CCP's computer, no need to make it worse by making people earn them before they can lose them.

Naran Eto
Posted - 2011.07.18 08:50:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Naran Eto on 18/07/2011 13:13:19
The Autocamp 2000 gameplaying robot Plays EVE Online with the following rules:

1. Join any fleet that invites you
2. When in a fleet, follow behind the FC
3. Attack any rat you see
4. Accept all trade requests from other players, then give them an exquisite dancer
Well, that takes care of 90% of online play. All I would need to do is stick my character -- Fernus -- in Jita with a backpack full of exquisite dancerss. When I check on him a week later he'd be what they call "über." But before I got started I had to tackle the tricky part: interaction with other players. If my automated Fernus didn't respond to players who talked to him in a meaningful way, the proverbial jig would be up.

One option was to have my robot randomly bark at people in Mandarin Chinese. But I opted for a much more graceful algorithm:

The Autocamp 2000 talks to other players with following rules:

1. If someone says something ending in a question mark, respond by saying "Dude?"
2. If someone says something ending in an exclamation point, respond by saying "Dude!"
3. If someone says something ending with a period, respond by randomly saying one of three things: "Okie," "Sure," or "Right on."
4. EXCEPTION: If someone says something directly to you by mentioning your name, respond by saying "Lag."
5. (And remember to accept all trade requests from other players by giving them an exquisite dancer.)
My robot was programmed and ready to go. Hell, if I programmed it to randomly shout "Gimmie buffs!" it would probably pass the turing test. Satisfied, I sat it in front of the keyboard, made sure my character had at least fifty exquisite dancers in his cargo hold, and then trudged off to leave it alone for the night.


My character, Fernus , waited around in Jita for some adventurers. The following is a log of what transpired:

Silvan: [Shouting] Does anyone want to join our hunting fleet?

Fernus: [Powered by the Autocamp 2000] Dude?

[Silvan invites Fernus to join the fleet.]
[Fernus joins the fleet]

Silvan: We're gonna go hunt sansha.

Fernus: Right on.

[The group of players heads out of the system, Fernus following close behind. Fernus shoots at every little rat they pass.]

Silvan: Why are you attacking the rats?

Fernus: Dude?

Silvan: The rats, the little red things -- why do you keep shooting at them?

Fernus: Dude?

Soblarg: [A gallente in the party] My booster expired, I need a new one.

Fernus: Sure.

[Soblarg opens a trade with Fernus.]
[Fernus hands him an exquisite dancer.]

Soblarg: ...what's this?

Fernus: Dude?

Soblarg: You handed me an exquisite dancer!

Fernus: Dude!

Silvan: Knock it off guys, I see some sansha up ahead. Let's do this.

Fernus: Right on.

[The group encounters a bunch of dangerous sansha, but they gang up and shoot every one of them.]

Silvan: We rock!

Fernus: Dude!

Soblarg: We so OWNED them!

Fernus: Dude!

Silvan: Uh oh, hang on. Up ahead are some sleepers. We can't handle them, so don't shoot.

Fernus: Okie.
[Fernus shoots one of the sleepers.]
[The sleeper attacks; Trobacca and several other party members are killed before they beat it.]

Silvan: You IDIOT! Fernus why did you shoot at them?

Fernus: Lag.

Silvan: Well don't do it again.

Fernus: Sure.

[Fernus shoots at another Sleeper.]
[The entire party is slaughtered except for Fernus.]

[ ... Fernus floats there, alone, for several hours ... ]

[ ... finally, a minmater runs up to him.]

Dr'feelGood: [A Minmater.] Hey man! Would you like to buy a booster?

Fernus: Dude?

Dr'feelGood: A booster. It boosts your skills. I'll sell it to you for 50000 isk.

Fernus: Okie.

[Dr'feelGood opens a trade session.]
[Fernus hands him an exquisite dancer.]

Dr'feelGood: What the hell is this?

Fernus: Dude?

Dr'feelGood: You handed me an exquisite dancer.

Fernus: Right on.

Dr'feelGood: I told you 50000 isk!

Fernus: Dude!

Dr'feelGood: If it's too expensive, just say so.

Fernus: Sure.

[Dr'feelGood flies away, angry.]

[ .... several more hours pass ...]

Mspaine
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2011.07.18 08:50:00 - [14]
 

they can and are detected

the ones that are not are generaly picked up by player's and petitioned to CCP

At the end of the day tho - CCP sit's back and looks at the 5000 bot accounts that they actualy know of - and think hmm - 500x monthly subscription = $74750. per month

"We cant afford to loose those subscriptions after the flack we've just copped for being exposed for the greedy monkeys that we are now can we!? No we'll take a political stance of being thurrorly against botters but we'll do absoltely nothing to stop them because we need teh monies."

Naran Eto
Posted - 2011.07.18 08:53:00 - [15]
 

[cont]

[A small hunting fleet led by Arterius the Caldari Shield Tank comes through the system and spots Fernus.]

Arterius : Fernus, what's up? What are you doing way out here?

Fernus: Lag.

Arterius : We're rooting rats out of a belt. You should join our fleet.

Fernus: Okie.
[Arterius invites Fernus to join the fleet.]
[Fernus joins the fleet and starts following Arterius around.]

Tyza: [The party's remote rep'er]. Here, Fernus, let me hand you some boosters.

Fernus: Lag.

Tyza: I know, it's pretty bad tonight. Here you go.

Fernus: Right on.

[Tyza opens up a trade window and hands Fernus a booster.]
[Fernus hands Tyza an exquisite dancer.]

Tyza: Uh ... thanks!

Fernus: Dude!

[The party enters a belt and spends the next two hours brutally clearing it of rats. Everyone gets tons of bounty.]

Arterius : Aw man, it's getting really late guys. I should go!

Fernus: Dude!

Arterius : I know, sucks. I'll catch you all later.

Fernus: Sure.

[Arterius logs off. By default, Fernus is now promoted to fleet commander!]
Tyza: Well that sucks. What should we hunt next?

Fernus: Dude?

Tyza: Let's hunt Sleepers!

Fernus: Dude!

Tyza: I know an awesome spot. Follow me.

Fernus: Right on.

[The group flies out of the belt, but Fernus, because he is now FC, just floats there. Several minutes pass before Tyza returns.]

Tyza: Fernus why didn't you come with us?

Fernus: Lag.

Tyza: Well catch up when you can.

Fernus: Okie.

[Fernus floats motionless in the belte and eventually the fleet. Half an hour passes.]
[Suddenly, one of the game developers, controlling a titan, enters the belt.]

GM: Well, my young friend, we've been watching your progress for quite some time.

Fernus: Sure.

GM: You have done well. We have decided to bestow upon you: a new tier of skills!

Fernus: Okie.

GM: You will be the most powerful Caldari in EVE!

Fernus: Dude!

[GM gives Fernus advanced skills.]

GM: Would you like my super duper awesome gatling gun?

Fernus: Dude?

GM: My super duper awesome gatling gun. I bestow it onto you.

Fernus: Right on!

[GM opens up a trade and gives Fernus a light saber.]
[Fernus hands GM an exquisite dancer.]

GM: Thanks, uh, for the ... exquisite dancer.

Fernus: Sure.

GM: Well? Aren't you going to try out your new skills?

Fernus: Dude?

GM: Your new skilss! The powers I just gave you!

Fernus: Dude!

GM: The SKILLS, Fernus! Use the Skills!

Fernus: Lag.

GM: Okay, you know what. Just forget the skillss. I'm taking them back.

Fernus: Okie.

GM: And give me back my gun!

Fernus: Sure.

[Fernus hands GM an exquisite dancer.]

[GM pod kills Fernus.]

[Fernus respawns in the stations.]

Silvan: [In the station] Whoa! Look who just popped in. What happened to you, Fernus?

Fernus: Lag.

Silvan: Want to come hunting with us?

Fernus: Okie.

[Fernus and the Autocamp 2000 join the hunt and gain isk for several more hours...]


I'd call the experiment an unqualified success.


(adapted from a post in the SWG forums many many years ago)

Kunming
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2011.07.18 08:55:00 - [16]
 

If you wanna kill bots, the first place you should visit would be the bot publishers forums. Join their community, mingle in, learn their techniques and profit.

Alot of bot users follow the forums here.. really closely, you should do the same with theirs if you want to hurt them.

clixoras
Posted - 2011.07.18 10:49:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Kunming
If you wanna kill bots, the first place you should visit would be the bot publishers forums. Join their community, mingle in, learn their techniques and profit.

Alot of bot users follow the forums here.. really closely, you should do the same with theirs if you want to hurt them.



oh please, that has been done, undoubtably by CCP by also here by NinjaSpud and others.

Main problem: CCP still has to mannually check all the found/reported botters. When RMT is expected to be involved it'll take even more research. And guess what, this research chews up resources no matter how CCP streamlines the processes.

So if you're a company, would you work on things customers are seeing directly or something that IS a problem but only a few players MIGHT notice?

And there is the evoluation of botprograms, i don't have any info on this but my hunch is that the public available bots are only the tip of the iceberg and the real complicated ones are used by their creaters only or by professional RMT organizations.

Langoss
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:00:00 - [18]
 

Bots pay subs and CCP need money in October -> CCP don't ban bots

Monstress
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:08:00 - [19]
 

I'm not sure, but didn't CCP add some new stuff to the client that should assist with detecting automated activity during one of the Incursion updates?

Cpt Greagor
Caldari
Liquid Relief
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:13:00 - [20]
 

Because CCP is too busy designing virtual clothes for you to run walk around in circles in your "Captains Quarters".

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:25:00 - [21]
 

Thanks for the story, Naran Eto.
Laughing

Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:41:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Christopher AET on 18/07/2011 11:41:41
Originally by: Naran Eto
stuff


Brilliant!

Dasola
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:49:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Digital Messiah
CCP just needs to add a system scanner on launch. They hunt down all botting programs, revoke the use of ghosting, and simply scan for said bots during start up. It wouldn't take very long, and I'm sure none of us non botters would mind it? Wink

Waiting for the incoming "you can't do that it's against our privacy rights!". In which case I say "Did you read the updated eula that put this in effect to protect the interests of CCP. And their right to the revenue generated by said game and copyrights/trademarks they own?" If this were to be put into effect that is.

This would effectively force botters to constantly make new software, which in turn would be hunted down. Eventually making it more costly to run a botting network/program. Unfortunately we would probably end up with an ISK sweatshop. Much like you see with gold farmers in world of warcraft. But at least they are active and there. If that is any consolation at all...


Well such unwarantless scanning brakes quite a few law in different countries. Im pretty sure CCP dont want to be dragged to court over detecting botting programs.

But its constant competition between ccp and bot makers. Newer ending arms race. CCP figures new way to catch them, they figure new way to avoid detection.

Cpt Greagor
Caldari
Liquid Relief
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:56:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Naran Eto



Laughed my ass off.

Cpt Greagor
Caldari
Liquid Relief
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:59:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Digital Messiah
Because every one knows the guy who gets Veldspar tattooed on his arm needs a bot to mine it for him.


Mining in a dread in hisec gets boring you know....

Tsukimaru
Amarr
Stargate SG-1
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.07.18 12:56:00 - [26]
 

Cool story bro.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.07.18 13:12:00 - [27]
 

CCP really should do something about those docking bots, they are so annoying, either that or nerf drake's / tengu's

Haruki Tekitsu
Posted - 2011.07.18 13:36:00 - [28]
 

dude?

Written Word
Written Word's Tax Haven
Posted - 2011.07.18 13:44:00 - [29]
 

Because knowing CCP, its probably just two guys working on the detection in their spare time and they don't communicate or document anything they do.

Cedar Locus
Posted - 2011.07.18 13:45:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Naran Eto
cool story


that was awesome Very Happy


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