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M Blanc
Posted - 2011.07.17 23:01:00 - [31]
 

I got the impression that it wasn't so much ten ships as ten ship balance issues, so "supercaps" would be one of ten issues, as would "dramiels," "logistics warp speed," "hybrids and gallente" etc. etc.

But then again, I might have got the wrong end of the stick entirely.

Wedding Peach
Posted - 2011.07.17 23:10:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: M Blanc
I got the impression that it wasn't so much ten ships as ten ship balance issues, so "supercaps" would be one of ten issues, as would "dramiels," "logistics warp speed," "hybrids and gallente" etc. etc.

But then again, I might have got the wrong end of the stick entirely.


There has been talk about how the Omen has some severe fitting issues. There is also the Eagle but that might as well be put in 'Fix Hybrids'.

DemetRYS
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.18 02:16:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: General Trajan
Originally by: DemetRYS
Originally by: General Trajan
chimera. worst fitting of all carriers in game. needs more cpu.


The niddy would like a word with you.


"bartender! make that another Quafe zero for my buddy here."


Cheers m8m8. o7o7

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.07.18 02:26:00 - [34]
 

Yes, for the love of god fix the niddy please!

And fix the Hel!

Speaking of the Hel, i thought of a possible bonus for it instead of the logi bonus: 5% increase in drone MWD speed, so it can apply DPS quicker?

DemetRYS
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.18 02:32:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Headerman
Speaking of the Hel


Yea, speaking of the Hel. Will it be an even bigger joke after the SC nerf, or will it be the only SC to get an overall buff from said nerfs?

I find it hard to believe the Hel isn't already at proverbial "rock bottom," so i'll wager the latter.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.07.18 02:37:00 - [36]
 

The SCs don't need to be nerfed to be rebalanced in the game though.

It has been suggested that a Tier/Tech 2 dread with alot more EHP but similar DPS, and no siege mod would be an effective counter, especially if they are able to be docked.

DemetRYS
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.18 02:54:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Headerman
The SCs don't need to be nerfed to be rebalanced in the game though.


You're entitled to your opinion, but CCP has made it very clear that Tallest is currently working in SC re-balancing.

I somehow doubt that's code for "new ship," which they would have been keen to make us all aware of and excited about.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.07.18 03:03:00 - [38]
 

That is very true. I only say that as CCP have been asking for people ideas of additional capitals tho.

Even if SCs did get nerfed, what's there to go against them except more SCs?

DemetRYS
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.18 03:08:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Headerman
Even if SCs did get nerfed, what's there to go against them except more SCs?


What are dreads?

I'll continue with "in an ideal world," for 1000, Alex.

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2011.07.18 04:23:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: DemetRYS
Originally by: Flynn Fetladral
In fact is maybe easier to list the ships which don't need a balance Razz


Agreed. Anything with projectiles, large lasers, or heavy missiles goes on the "done," sheet. Everything else needs work.


To save time they usually just flip the paper around and anything with projectiles, large lasers, or heavy missiles goes on the "nerf" sheet. WinkRazz

Anyway things needing to look at are
Tengu:
To good in comparison to other T3's.
Scorch:
Too much range/damage.
Logistics:
Guardian needs to lose several high/med/low slots.
Super carriers:
Too much dps with too much ehp and another damage dealer SC was just dumb IMHO.
Command ships:
Some fleet bonuses are useful and the rest are crappy.
Assault ships:
Need more speed/agility and a tad more dps or buffer.
EAS:
Too slow and vulnerable for T1 frigates closing in; also general e-war issues.

Hybrid boats:
Every single one of them. ugh

DemetRYS
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.18 04:36:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Baneken

Tengu:
To good in comparison to other T3's.



Nothing at all to do with the tengu, everything to do with heavy missiles. TBH

Originally by: Baneken

Scorch:
Too much range/damage.



Disagree.

Originally by: Baneken

Logistics:
Guardian needs to lose several high/med/low slots.



What?

Originally by: Baneken

Super carriers:
Too much dps with too much ehp and another damage dealer SC was just dumb IMHO.



Foregone conclusion, they're being worked on as we speak.

Originally by: Baneken

Command ships:
Some fleet bonuses are useful and the rest are crappy.



Command ships and links are a little off-balance, agreed.

Originally by: Baneken

Assault ships:
Need more speed/agility and a tad more dps or buffer.



Sure, why not.

Originally by: Baneken

EAS:
Too slow and vulnerable for T1 frigates closing in; also general e-war issues.



See above.

Originally by: Baneken

Hybrid boats:
Every single one of them. ugh


Small hybrids are fine.

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2011.07.18 04:58:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: DemetRYS

Originally by: Baneken

Scorch:
Too much range/damage.



Disagree.

Originally by: Baneken

Logistics:
Guardian needs to lose several high/med/low slots.



What?



Guardian isn't king of the hill just because a pair of them can create cap out of thin air it also have too many slots compared to Oneiros (a guardian can fit more reps and still have a beefier tank with ample grid to spare).
And scorch L has a 40km base range with blaster like dps, either drop dps or range but 40km sure isn't close range by any stretch of imagination ("close" is when you have to be on a scram range). Also insta ammo swap make scorch viable even if it would have shorter range then large blasters, being able to insta swap ammo from long to short range is an incredible asset whne the rest have to spend 10s doing the same.

DemetRYS
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.18 05:57:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: DemetRYS on 18/07/2011 06:03:01
Tell me more about these "blasters."

But seriously, scorch is fine. Blasters(medium+large) and rails blatantly need a buff. I don't know if you can fly all these ships we're talking about (I can, btw), but you'd dare not suggest a scorch nerf if you had any experience flying amarr.

Thomas Orca
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.18 07:16:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Baneken

And scorch L has a 40km base range with blaster like dps, either drop dps or range but 40km sure isn't close range by any stretch of imagination ("close" is when you have to be on a scram range). Also insta ammo swap make scorch viable even if it would have shorter range then large blasters, being able to insta swap ammo from long to short range is an incredible asset whne the rest have to spend 10s doing the same.


...no it doesn't

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.07.18 07:37:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Thomas Orca
Originally by: Baneken

And scorch L has a 40km base range with blaster like dps, either drop dps or range but 40km sure isn't close range by any stretch of imagination ("close" is when you have to be on a scram range). Also insta ammo swap make scorch viable even if it would have shorter range then large blasters, being able to insta swap ammo from long to short range is an incredible asset whne the rest have to spend 10s doing the same.


...no it doesn't
indeed it doesn't.

but when comparing it to null, it comes close.




this is more a blaster problem than scorch tho. tbh scorch as it is is ok.

Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.07.18 07:45:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: DemetRYS
Edited by: DemetRYS on 18/07/2011 06:03:01
Tell me more about these "blasters."

But seriously, scorch is fine. Blasters(medium+large) and rails blatantly need a buff. I don't know if you can fly all these ships we're talking about (I can, btw), but you'd dare not suggest a scorch nerf if you had any experience flying amarr.

This man speaks the truth. Scorch is the only reason amarr was in a better position than gallente at all lol. Well perhaps a bit better still, not by much however...

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.07.18 08:17:00 - [47]
 

The only thing I'd do to Scorch is to take the tracking down. Its damage is okay, but I think it's too good at hitting small stuff at range.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.07.18 08:26:00 - [48]
 

Black Ops spring to mind almost immediately.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2011.07.18 08:54:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Black Ops spring to mind almost immediately.


The ships themselves aren't an issue. Their production cost is. A ship meant for solo pvp shoudln't cost as much as a carrier hull.

Make them cost 250M, and they'll be used a lot more.

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2011.07.18 09:07:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Malcanis
Black Ops spring to mind almost immediately.


The ships themselves aren't an issue. Their production cost is. A ship meant for solo pvp shoudln't cost as much as a carrier hull.

Make them cost 250M, and they'll be used a lot more.


A ship that has a main purpose of being a poor mans covert ops Titan is not meant to be a solo ship and BO is fine as long as you use it for bridging only.
What BO needs is longer jump range and preferably a less fuel consumption/bigger fuel bay and some tweaks on fitting issues but a BO should never be solo-mobile; we have quite enough of those in BS class.

As it is we have enough afk-cloaking hot droppers.
Lower the price and you'll have hot droppers left and right in null sec.

Thomas Orca
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.18 09:19:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Thomas Orca
Originally by: Baneken

And scorch L has a 40km base range with blaster like dps, either drop dps or range but 40km sure isn't close range by any stretch of imagination ("close" is when you have to be on a scram range). Also insta ammo swap make scorch viable even if it would have shorter range then large blasters, being able to insta swap ammo from long to short range is an incredible asset whne the rest have to spend 10s doing the same.


...no it doesn't
indeed it doesn't.

but when comparing it to null, it comes close.




this is more a blaster problem than scorch tho. tbh scorch as it is is ok.


With similar/equivalent fits, blasters with null do ~25% more

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:26:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Thomas Orca


With similar/equivalent fits, blasters with null do ~25% more


In usual scenario blaster dps = 0 since you never get in range when someone is shooting you from 40+ range...

But then again it's circular logic to buff gallente by nerfing amarr.

Sonya Kranz
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:38:00 - [53]
 

to determine wether scorch is OPed you will also have to look at the 3rd, equally important factor, which is autocannons.
is pulse + scorch OPed compared to ACs? i dont think so.
So yes, blasters need work in tandem with gallente ship redesign, the gallente ships are just too slow for proper blaster usage right now. Scorch is fine as it is.

So yeah, i hope they'll take care of some of the weaker gallente ships like deimos, eos and astarte for example.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.18 12:23:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Malcanis
Black Ops spring to mind almost immediately.


The ships themselves aren't an issue. Their production cost is. A ship meant for solo pvp shoudln't cost as much as a carrier hull.

Make them cost 250M, and they'll be used a lot more.

Uhm wut? Black ops are not meant for solo pvp and should never get into any solo pvp role.

Regarding boosting them, the only boost I could get behind is lowering fuel consumption. I used to be okay with increased jump range also, but serious these days there already is waaaayyyyy too much hotdropping going on (serious it was better when every system could be cynojammed), no need to boost that.

Black ops have a fairly limitted role, but they do that limitted role fine. Some rebalancing in the class itself is fine, and so would making them a bit cheaper, but dont let them start bridging t3s on everything that moves within 3 region radius.




Then on the topic of scorch, the issue is the bonus:

Scorch has 50% boost to optimal, 0% to fall off. With the stats of lasers that results in roughly 40% range boost.
Barrage has 0% boost to optimal, 50% to fall off. With the stats of ACs that results in roughly 40% range boost (I think it is a little bit more effective than scorch looking at just the range boost, but too lazy to find out).
Null has 25% boost to optimal, 25% to fall off. Which kinda obviously means 25% range boost.

Which is why null is clearly inferior to the others.

Thomas Orca
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.18 12:44:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Baneken
Originally by: Thomas Orca


With similar/equivalent fits, blasters with null do ~25% more


In usual scenario blaster dps = 0 since you never get in range when someone is shooting you from 40+ range...

But then again it's circular logic to buff gallente by nerfing amarr.


There are some fits where you'll scratch people's paint with large blasters at 40Km, you'll do lol damage, but it won't be zero.

Of all the factions, Amarr are most where everybody needs to be balance wise.

Techno Panda
Posted - 2011.07.18 13:14:00 - [56]
 

Without Scorch pulses are very lack luster.

Erim Solfara
Amarr
inFluX.
Posted - 2011.07.18 13:37:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: DemetRYS
Edited by: DemetRYS on 17/07/2011 19:50:01
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: DemetRYS
Originally by: Flynn Fetladral
In fact is maybe easier to list the ships which don't need a balance Razz


Agreed. Anything with projectiles, large lasers, or heavy missiles goes on the "done," sheet. Everything else needs work.


You just gave a nice example why blanket statements are terrible idea.


I'm all ears. Can you name me a ship in one of those catergories that's in dire need of a buff?

Cerb, that's about all I can come up with. Comparing the issues of the nighthawk to say... well any hybrid ship, along with supers, and the rest that need serious re-balancing. That's just a little rich.


Maller, prophecy, on account of them using projectiles YARRRR!!

Noisrevbus
Posted - 2011.07.18 13:55:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer

Regarding boosting them, the only boost I could get behind is lowering fuel consumption. I used to be okay with increased jump range also, but serious these days there already is waaaayyyyy too much hotdropping going on (serious it was better when every system could be cynojammed), no need to boost that.

Black ops have a fairly limitted role, but they do that limitted role fine. Some rebalancing in the class itself is fine, and so would making them a bit cheaper, but dont let them start bridging t3s on everything that moves within 3 region radius.


It's nice to see other people beginning to lean over towards my own perspective. I've said the same thing more or less since the ships came out. There's too much lazy drops going on, and it would be nice to see the devs take the Blackops bridging in a direction of reinforcing agressive roaming. I'd like to see Blackops incorporated into cloaky roaming gangs, and bridges used better to go a couple of jumps to circumvent bottlenecks, dead-end camps and system lockdowns.

The medicine is exactly what Furb mentions: not longer range, but much cheaper fuel consumption so you can drop short, but often and on the move. I would also love to see the consumption levelled out a bit in regard to size as well, to encourage some cloaky gang dynamics. It's currently far too expensive to bridge cruiser-size relative to frigate-size.


Other than that, it's always amusing when a topic like this comes out, to watch how everyone scream nerf at their own singled out objects of affection. There may be some favour for one thing over another, but you shouldn't touch things that aren't completely broken. The same goes out for things that need attention, they should get tweaked in small increments - not overhauled. Most of these issues raised, wether it's Tengus, Guardians or Scorch are really non-issues. Most hotheaded claims coupled with that is also usually just blowing steam as well. Tech III's are a fairly well-balanced class of ships. I'm not saying all ships are equally good at everything or have as many things they do well, but none of them are bad (and that includes the Legion). They all have roles for groundwork and they all have some nische, that isn't so remote that it's not supported by general game mechanics. That makes all of them a good bit better than certain other issues up for attention.

Though im pretty sure, just like others have mentioned already, that they're looking at 10 issues rather than 10 ships (or even classes). They have already confirmed Supers, Blackops and EAF for the winter expansion in the minutes. Apart from that it's likely Angels, Hybrids, AF and Dreads. That leaves three things that could be anything from things mentioned in this thread, things no one has yet to consider to one of these larger topics being split into smaller tasks (eg., separating hybrids and gallente, giving both attention).

Trixie Smithers
Posted - 2011.07.18 14:01:00 - [59]
 

Caldari ships in general need some serious work. My top list for tweeking:

* Caracal -- sorry guys, but "good against frigates" is nothing a cruiser should be limited to. Every cruiser in the game do that, including the Osprey. The Caldari missile cruiser should be able to engage other cruisers on equal terms.
* ALL EAFs
* Eagle
* Cerberus
* Dramiel
* Rokh
* Loki
* Worm
* Caldari Navy Osprey
* ALL AF's

And as an added bonus:

1. Remove the meta level crap from ships and just balance the damn hulls
2. Rework and rethink ECM altogether

Celestia Vespidae
Posted - 2011.07.18 16:25:00 - [60]
 

Dramiel (slight nerf)
Proteus, Legion & Loki (slight buff to effective range; dps is fine) -dont nerf the tengu; t3s are supposed to be this powerful, just make the others on the same level. -they dont need much of a buff either tbh.
Rokh; give it a damage, rof, or tracking bonus instead of that optimal range bonus.
Maller; damage bonus in place of cap use bonus please; make it a cruiser class abaddon.
Cruor needs a buff, so does the ashimu.
Mach doesnt really need to be nerfed; just increase its mass and base speed (this will work for all the angel ships tbh..)
Dreads need some kind of love I think; remove the focus of SC's onto carriers, dreads, and battleships for large fleet warfare pleaaaaase... none of this mega sc blob warfare....

meh, you probably find the ships that will be fixed are the ones that dont need it..


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