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daddys helper
Posted - 2011.07.15 22:07:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Holy One
Originally by: Ricardo Gonzalo Montalban
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Look at all this CCP Dev-alts posting here, preparing the next big nerf by asking for it on the forums and then claiming that it was wished by the "community".


My god you're a genius.


Exactly


I am not a CCP dev alt. Honest.

Also. Jump drives have no margin of error do they? Which I always thought was tarded. It really shouldn't be a precise science. Where's the mis-jumps/scatter/plox quotient in jumping? Sucks.


and they also have a limited range and often need to jump several cynos to get to their destination. this is where intel and strategy comes into play. something the op is unfamiliar with apparently

Ghoest
Posted - 2011.07.15 22:40:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Oh, just heavily increase fuel cost. That should do it.


The fuel usage increase would have to be huge - like 10 fold. But even at that its silly - jump freighters ruin the game. In order to make them gimp enough to fix the problem you would have to make them be as inefficient as carriers.

Which brings us back to the point that we just shouldnt have jump freighters.


Also we need to remove anchorable bubbles.

Kilostream
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.15 23:07:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Holy One
Also. Jump drives have no margin of error do they? Which I always thought was tarded. It really shouldn't be a precise science. Where's the mis-jumps/scatter/plox quotient in jumping? Sucks.


I wouldn't expect there to be error - the premise of the jump drive is that a cyno beacon is necessary for the jump drive to lock on to - it's the anchor point that determines where the ship lands - why would it then land somewhere else?

In space travel right now things are incredibly precise. Have to be - so why would we develop navigational error in a space travel scenario set waaaay off in the future?

Not convinced.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.15 23:20:00 - [34]
 

Posting in a horribly bad troll thread.

Hi Ghoest.

Blacque Nebulae
Posted - 2011.07.15 23:27:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Holy One
JF appear to be rarer that Giant Pandas at the moment anyway ..

I expect they'll become increasingly expensive and exclusive.

Which wouldn't be great.

All we need are smaller combat jump drive fitted hulls which have the capacity to scan down, acquire and lock on to a jump target and over-take it by virtue of mass to ambush at destination a-la-elite.

Its really coming to the point now where EvE needs jump drives to largely supercede gate travel - and effective means to enact pvp situations in conjunction with fuel requirements/skills should make jump ships incredibly expensive and extremely risky. As they are supposed to be.


I'd love it if all ships had jump drives(scaled to their size, as far as jump range, etc.) and get rid of gates altogether. there must be some other way for people to find each other than gates and stations.

Thomas Phillippe
Posted - 2011.07.15 23:44:00 - [36]
 

gatecampers are getting bored i see.

K'iran
Spirit of EVE
Posted - 2011.07.15 23:51:00 - [37]
 

All jump capable ships should be heavily restricted, both in range as ease of use. Jump bridges need to be removed and bridging using titans needs to get some heavy penalties (perhaps make it some sort of siege mode where they can't move for a while and drop their cap to 0).

By doing so the huge power blocks suffer, as they should, in favour of smaller and more mobile entities to live in 0.0. More fights, less stagnant crap and more danger. I'd actually go back to 0.0 if such a thing would happen.

Holy One
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2011.07.15 23:53:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Blacque Nebulae
Originally by: Holy One
JF appear to be rarer that Giant Pandas at the moment anyway ..

I expect they'll become increasingly expensive and exclusive.

Which wouldn't be great.

All we need are smaller combat jump drive fitted hulls which have the capacity to scan down, acquire and lock on to a jump target and over-take it by virtue of mass to ambush at destination a-la-elite.

Its really coming to the point now where EvE needs jump drives to largely supercede gate travel - and effective means to enact pvp situations in conjunction with fuel requirements/skills should make jump ships incredibly expensive and extremely risky. As they are supposed to be.


I'd love it if all ships had jump drives(scaled to their size, as far as jump range, etc.) and get rid of gates altogether. there must be some other way for people to find each other than gates and stations.


Sov 3.0. ie. Making space really your space. By giving the players the tools to build more than just crappy outposts but numerous kinds of smaller dockable structures with varying functions.

The whole idea of Sov as it stands seems to be denying access/resources to others. I get that, in degrees, but frankly I never understood why CCP didn't come up with a commercial sov model like NPC null. The fact you can't trade, live, support yourself anywhere but NPC unless you are in a blob alliance is kinda why nobody wants to go to null. Oh its also ******ed and so utterly old-school as to be almost embarrasing by modern standards. Its basically little more than Quake Capture the Flag. With all the sophistication or lack thereof.

No city of antiquity survived or flourished by denying trade. No nation state ever formed an empire from isolationism. If Eve is real, it should have a more realistic macro economic model based on trade and commercial activity between non-aligned entities IN NULL.

Callduron
Posted - 2011.07.16 00:46:00 - [39]
 

Eve is designed as an ecosystem. Nullsec is gradually becoming for Predators Only. This is bad.

Basically Nullsec needs a Trammel. It's daft that the best way to acquire trit if you're a newbie in deep 0,0 is to rat for isk and order it shipped in from Jita.

An ecology that includes carebears is good for everyone including the predators.

Yoa Loother
Posted - 2011.07.16 01:12:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Atropos Kahn
Bwaaaaah...

Griefer tears are the best tears.

Cry some more pievat.

Juliette DuBois
Posted - 2011.07.16 01:32:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Callduron
Eve is designed as an ecosystem. Nullsec is gradually becoming for Predators Only. This is bad.

Basically Nullsec needs a Trammel. It's daft that the best way to acquire trit if you're a newbie in deep 0,0 is to rat for isk and order it shipped in from Jita.

An ecology that includes carebears is good for everyone including the predators.


Trammel ruined that other game you know. GTFO.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.07.16 01:41:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Callduron
Eve is designed as an ecosystem. Nullsec is gradually becoming for Predators Only. This is bad.

Basically Nullsec needs a Trammel. It's daft that the best way to acquire trit if you're a newbie in deep 0,0 is to rat for isk and order it shipped in from Jita.

An ecology that includes carebears is good for everyone including the predators.


The problem is that people can be shortsighted and relentless, just like real predators, they lack even perfunctory knowledge of their own status in the food chain.

For example, what happens when a single carebear tries to make it to null?
He gets chased by ten battleship pilots, insulted, his mother's grave spit on in so many words, and podded, all the while he is told he fails at life, the game, should just quit now, and so long.

Then people like the OP come on here and ***** and moan that there are no targets to shoot because people bust their balls to use any and every conceivable way to move their manufacturing goods and materials (in the form of prefab ships) into 0.0 for their alliance mates.

I see no problem with this to be perfectly honest.

If people want to hunt carebears mercilessly until they do not come back, they shouldn't complain that carebears do everything they can to circumvent conventional logistics.

And just for reference point, I'm the Devil's Advocate here, I'll fly a BS down a low sec pipe any night to get into null if it seems quiet enough that I'll only run into a pilot or two and have a good fight if they try me.


It's feast or famine, because people will just escalate the killing exponentially with any and all influx of carebear types until those types stop coming back or they find ways to avoid it altogether. The fact that people can complain that this even happens is ironic, considering they're just as at fault for being merciless as the carebear is for being meek.

I remember when ransoms were just as much a part of the game as the code itself, and if someone named and shamed a pirate on C&P that had dishonored a ransom, he would get hunted by the others for hurting the profession.

Now C&P is nothing but mercs, hulkageddon pilots, and slammers, the latter of which literally shoot anything that stirs without so much as batting an eye and then they wonder where all the targets ran off to.

Bring back the old pirate system of honored ransoms to the game universally, it was a glorious ___ing game of cat and mouse that I thoroughly enjoyed, then maybe carebears will even have a reason to undock anything bigger than a cruiser and attempt running a pipe the conventional way.

Plus, does the OP have any illusions that freighter gangs and escorts in the age of HotDrops Online is ever going to be the norm again?
A hotdrop of even a couple supers would turn a fleet of a dozen freighters and escort into space debris in minutes.

Jack Tronic
Posted - 2011.07.16 01:44:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Jack Tronic on 16/07/2011 01:44:25
Originally by: Mendolus

A hotdrop of even a couple supers would turn a fleet of a dozen freighters and escort into space debris in minutes.


Actually a single super can kill a freighter in about ~25 seconds. (Assuming they launched the right fighter types).

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.07.16 01:51:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 16/07/2011 01:51:44
Originally by: Mendolus

A hotdrop of even a couple supers would turn a fleet of a dozen freighters and escort into space debris in minutes.


Actually a single super can kill a freighter in about ~25 seconds. (Assuming they launched the right fighter types).


Yea, :( I don't doubt it, my buddy lost a carrier awhile back to a drop of 2 supers at cyno at a death star that was used as a waypoint for logistics... they ate him up in about 10-20 seconds after the bombers got to him, and T1 freighters have significantly less EHP than a carrier...

Callduron
Posted - 2011.07.16 04:01:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Mendolus

The problem is that people can be shortsighted and relentless, just like real predators, they lack even perfunctory knowledge of their own status in the food chain.



Quite right.

The problem with a predator only environment is that it devours itself from the bottom up. The carebears all get ganked and so avoid the game experience leaving a vacuum at the bottom. People who used to beat the carebears but usually lost to other pvpers become the new carebears, the people who always lose. They lose interest in the game creating a new vacuum at the bottom and the pvpers who used to be mid-range are suddenly worse than anyone left playing and start losing all the time.

This is what killed Shadowbane, is killing Darkfall, would have killed UO were it not for Trammel.

Here's developer Scott Jennings on the problem:

"And in a dog-eat-dog PvP game, there will only be the PvPers, not the targets. Because now people actually have the choice of selecting which game to play, which game suits them best. If a person is targeted for the tender mercies of "evil players" they simply will cancel and move on. The days of UOs One World where many mutually exclusive play styles are forced to interact, on the terms of the more socially maladroit, are over. The market has fragmented, and cannot be put back together. People, when forced to play the role of "sheep" or "stupid newbie", will simply leave."
http://www.brokentoys.org/2004/12/18/the-unbearable-darkness-of-ultima-online/

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.07.16 04:02:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 16/07/2011 04:03:19
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Akita T
Oh, just heavily increase fuel cost. That should do it.

The fuel usage increase would have to be huge - like 10 fold.

I was thinking even higher, like 50-fold or even 100-fold Twisted Evil

P.S. And increase fuel usage for other capitals too, but not quite so heavily.

Tarinara
Posted - 2011.07.16 04:21:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Firh
In all honesty it's hard enough to seed 0.0 stations with equipment as it is.

I'd be all for revamping moons however, make moon mining just provide new and exclusive materials necessary for capital ship components. This way people would have to mine something other than just ice, physically controlling space would become important again.

Make lowsec profitable enough for players to risk getting blown up by pirates once in a while. Nerf highsec into oblivion but remove non-mutual highsec wars and nerf suicide ganking even further. Change a lot of high sec systems to lowsec ones, justify it by saying that the factions are no longer able to maintain security in all systems due to incursions and whatnot.

Also, make PvP less costly, increase module drop rate slightly and make implants on frozen corpses harvestable (by a skill) with a very small chance to drop those implants.

.. Essentially, put the players back in space again and make actually physically controlling it important.

Oh why nerf - just get rid of High Sec and Low Sec period. Make it all lawless 0.0, survival of the fittest, dog-eat-dog, etc., etc. I'm sure that'll get lots more players into the game, it'll improve retention and of course - give y'all lots more of those juicy kill mails you just love... Laughing

Speaker4 theDead
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.16 04:58:00 - [48]
 

OP Translation: "I want easy mode"


Callduron
Posted - 2011.07.16 11:31:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Speaker4 theDead
OP Translation: "I want easy mode"




Well he may have intended that but nerfing logistics would nerf easy mode.

Currently the reason the pvp playstyle is dominating is because it's so easy to get enough money to replace ships. Run high sec incursions for one day a month and you fund a playstyle that loses 10 T2 fit Hurricanes a month. And those hurricanes will be bought in Jita and brought in at a very low risk per cubic meter.

If production were more difficult and logistics more difficult that pvp playstyle would change to more grinding less pvp. Who would that benefit? The producers. Because if you have to grind more suddenly it's really cool that some carebear wants to live in your space, mine rocks and build your guys Hurricanes. So you protect them and respect them. Eve becomes the ecology it was meant to be not Wulfpax in Space.

But don't just take my word for it - CCP Soundwave agrees and is intending to make it so:

"The second part is 0.0, where well look at resources. Resource scarcity or exclusivity is something weve done really well when it comes to stuff like tech 3 and so on. In other areas, such as minerals, ice etc, weve not done so well. So Id like to take some of the broadly distributed stuff and kind of slim down the availability. Hopefully that will create more professions for people, and make content thats currently underutilized interesting again. I think people generally need some sort of identity and letting people do everything at once detracts from that.

I basically want to give some people a special set of shovels to build massive sandcastles, while at the same time giving another set of players reinforced steel boots that come with directions to stomp said sandcastles. Winter is going to be a ton of fun, whether you like creating, or just tearing everything down."

Source: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/14/feature/5410/EVE-Online-Kristoffer-CCP-Soundwave-Touborg-Interview.html

Currently nullsec is all boot no sandcastle. The death of the NC saw the end of the last nullsec power that welcomed industrialists. It needs to change.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.16 11:37:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 16/07/2011 12:01:47
Originally by: Callduron
Quite right.

The problem with a predator only environment is that it devours itself from the bottom up. The carebears all get ganked and so avoid the game experience leaving a vacuum at the bottom. People who used to beat the carebears but usually lost to other pvpers become the new carebears, the people who always lose. They lose interest in the game creating a new vacuum at the bottom and the pvpers who used to be mid-range are suddenly worse than anyone left playing and start losing all the time.

This is what killed Shadowbane, is killing Darkfall, would have killed UO were it not for Trammel.

Here's developer Scott Jennings on the problem:

"And in a dog-eat-dog PvP game, there will only be the PvPers, not the targets. Because now people actually have the choice of selecting which game to play, which game suits them best. If a person is targeted for the tender mercies of "evil players" they simply will cancel and move on. The days of UOs One World where many mutually exclusive play styles are forced to interact, on the terms of the more socially maladroit, are over. The market has fragmented, and cannot be put back together. People, when forced to play the role of "sheep" or "stupid newbie", will simply leave."
http://www.brokentoys.org/2004/12/18/the-unbearable-darkness-of-ultima-online/

Great read. The problem as I see it, is that the aggressive type players, the ones that vent their frustrations in-game, do not and will never understand the balance that must exist in order to keep the game healthy. Their mentality is carebears can either be fish in a barrel or be out of the game; both options are not only acceptable, but the only choices for these "pussies" because to them, the game is where they get to exert power that they're unable to exert out-of-game.

They simply will not see it any other way. They are unable to comprehend anything beyond "lulz" and one-sided pvp.


Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2011.07.16 12:30:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Atropos Kahn
Edited by: Atropos Kahn on 15/07/2011 17:40:00
[...]
I remember a time, that if you wanted a drake in 0.0 you had to build it, jump it in a carrier, or fly it up from empire.
[...]


GTFO and ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bombay Door
Posted - 2011.07.16 12:50:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 16/07/2011 04:03:19
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Akita T
Oh, just heavily increase fuel cost. That should do it.

The fuel usage increase would have to be huge - like 10 fold.

I was thinking even higher, like 50-fold or even 100-fold Twisted Evil

P.S. And increase fuel usage for other capitals too, but not quite so heavily.


Fuel usage based on mass of ship and jump distance... higher the mass the more fuel it uses.

BTW need to enlarge the fuel bay if we do this! If you increase the shipping cost then the profits will dry up thus forcing people to make good on site.

Make this happen.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.07.16 12:56:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Callduron

This is what killed Shadowbane, is killing Darkfall, would have killed UO were it not for Trammel.

Here's developer Scott Jennings on the problem:

"And in a dog-eat-dog PvP game, there will only be the PvPers, not the targets. Because now people actually have the choice of selecting which game to play, which game suits them best. If a person is targeted for the tender mercies of "evil players" they simply will cancel and move on. The days of UOs One World where many mutually exclusive play styles are forced to interact, on the terms of the more socially maladroit, are over. The market has fragmented, and cannot be put back together. People, when forced to play the role of "sheep" or "stupid newbie", will simply leave."
http://www.brokentoys.org/2004/12/18/the-unbearable-darkness-of-ultima-online/



Trammel was the death of UO.

When you decide to take Scott Jennings' advice can I have your stuff?

Simetraz
Posted - 2011.07.16 13:40:00 - [54]
 

I love people that talk about the good old days.

Okay so lets get rid of jump freighters and jump bridges and go back.
First thing that will happen is 0.0 alliances will move closer to low-sec and start patrolling low-sec and killing anything that isn't blue.
Sounds like fun (not really, gate camps are not fun and the pirates will leave or get podded)
They will get bored doing that so they will look @ the moons and wipe any POS's that aren't blue.
Pirates and anyone else who was set up on the pipes will be disappear or move on to easier locations.
And all for the sake of a few people who want easy kills.
Funny part is they would become the prey.
And they still aren't going to get any kills.

So for those that have been around long enough to actually remember the good old days, they were not so good.
50 trips to high-sec where not fun, not because I was going to get killed.
It was because it was BORING as hell.

Moghydin
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2011.07.16 13:50:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Atropos Kahn
CCP, please remove jumpfreighters because me and my elite PvP friends like killing ships that can't fight back. Oh, and we won't do it anywhere else, but on gates and stations because it's much easier to run away there if something that can shoot at us appears on the overview

Vernn Miller
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.07.16 15:06:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Vernn Miller on 16/07/2011 15:07:53
Originally by: Callduron
The problem with easy logistics from Empire is that it kills nullsec for anyone who isn't a pvper. Pvpers don't need other player types, certainly not miners and industrialists, they can just shoot a few rats then place an order with the Jump Freighter guy.

The problem with having no industrialists out in nullsec building Rifters and Ravens is a somewhat unsatisfactory industrial game. You see the end game for industrialists is building the big ships. But because you develop as an industrialist in Empire you will never be in a position where some nullsec corp goes "hey dude, you're good at building, here's some ore, make us a titan".

So the top level of the industrialist game is done not as fun for an industrialist player but as a chore for a pvp veteran's alt.
Seriously how do some people even consider themselves industrialists and whine that they don`t have a chance in nullsec? It`s not that hard to be an industrialist in nullsec. You mine the best of the ABC ores you can find, move the high end minerals to highsec where you use the ISK from said high end minerals to buy minerals that you compress into modules then move it either with your rorq or a JF service back to nullsec and decompress the minerals and build anything you want. Feel free to send a tip in ISK if this has been of any use to any of you so called "industrialists". Laughing

edit: Nearly forgot, OP you`re dumb as hell!

Capri Sern
Minmatar
The Stand Alone Complex
Posted - 2011.07.16 17:22:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 16/07/2011 04:03:19
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Akita T
Oh, just heavily increase fuel cost. That should do it.

The fuel usage increase would have to be huge - like 10 fold.

I was thinking even higher, like 50-fold or even 100-fold Twisted Evil

P.S. And increase fuel usage for other capitals too, but not quite so heavily.


And then watch in awe as the high sec ice belts get filled to the brim with bots in mack's and orca's.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
Posted - 2011.07.16 17:51:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Atropos Kahn
It is time to get rid of these haxing ships.


You are wrong.

Can't be arsed to even go into the many reasons why.

Just accept it and go away.

Hax Zoidberg
Posted - 2011.07.16 21:42:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Jack Tronic
You do realize these JFs are EXTREMELY VULNERABLE right? With a suicide dread + cyno cov ops alt, you can web, scram the jf when it jumps to a pos outside shields, siege the dread(2 volleys from a phoenix citadel torps == dead jf) and nuke it before it even manages to load grid. Self destruct the dread and you get 70% of it's cost back. While the JF only gets like 2 isk. Not to mention you just got a 4bil killmail MINIMUM.

I must admit, I've never used my JF outside of high- and low-sec space, but is there any particular reason why people feel compelled to cyno a dozen km from a POS and then slowboat in? The following is the method I use for jumping around low-sec and wouldn't it work also in null?

1. Cyno alt in Griffin with 2 cheap ECCM creates a safespot between a couple planets, ideally at least 10 AU away from the station if you're docking at one. Initiates self-destruct.
2. Webber alt in Griffin with 2 ECCM and 2 webbers (again, cheap meta 1 or 2), after creating a bookmark next to the station or at the POS, warps to the cyno alt.
3. When you see 9 secs to self-destruct on the cyno frig, you wait a couple more seconds, then light the cyno.
4. JF jumps.
5. Switch to webber alt immediately. As soon as you see the JF on your overview, initiate fleet-warp to the destination bookmark. Cancel warp on webber frig, and web the JF.
6. JF enters warp within 5 secs of jumping in to the system.

Sure, this method requires 2 alts instead of just 1, but if you can afford a 5 bill JF, you can afford an additional account. And you could probably make this method work with only 1 alt if you fit the webbers on the cyno frig, although I'm not certain whether you can target and use mods on another ship after lighting a cyno.

Assuming you did some scouting ahead of time if you're in null, it's extremely unlikely that someone would be able to place a bubble between your cyno and the JF's destination. The self-destruct is a precaution in case of the unlikely event that you should DC immediately after jumping your JF into the system. Anyone in the system will have only a few secs to begin warping to the cyno before it disappears. Finally, Griffins have high base sensor strengths, and combined with the 2 ECCM mods are extremely difficult to scan down.

Tella Stratius
Posted - 2011.07.16 21:56:00 - [60]
 

Without JFs, null-sec logistics would be impossible.


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