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Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.07.15 09:44:00 - [1]
 

Why do you want to nerf WHs? How does this affect your NC agenda, your coalition has fallen and your alliance will too (3 months tops).

Dont you think you should focus all your efforts on improving lowsec / WHs, since thats where you will be by the end of the year or will your alliance be focusing on living in hi sec again?

Eitherway explain to the community why you have desperately been trying to nerf WHs

Oh and for the sake of things, flying monkeys, will it taste that good once you are without sov, I think not

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.15 10:03:00 - [2]
 

Quote:
Question to The Mittani and his flying monkeys

Wait what? They can fly!!?!?!

Personally don't see how infinitely vulnerable day-trip mining operations will be more than a blip on the radar compared to 23/7 drone ratting or deep blue sea mining.

There should be more opportunities for highly lucrative day-trips of all sorts, not less .. Eve is pretty stagnant as is due to the "everything in its place" mentality.

Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2011.07.15 10:04:00 - [3]
 

Hirana, have you ever seen The Wizard of Oz?

AnzacPaul
Perkone
Posted - 2011.07.15 10:55:00 - [4]
 

inb4goons

Discrodia
Gallente
Symbiosis International
Moose Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.15 11:01:00 - [5]
 

Because of RMT, and how Mittens n' co. want a more exclusive control of the economy so they can sell more ISK.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.15 12:09:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 15/07/2011 12:10:51
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 15/07/2011 12:10:03
They won't answer. They can't. They have no clue what's really going on. They didn't even realize wormholes were the ultimate in null-sec, nor that they had ABC ores. Of course, once they heard that, they assumed the holes were vast spigots gushing minerals into empire without knowing even the most basic aspects of wormhole living. All they're worried about is something threatening their little null bot fleets with even the tiniest hint of competition, and I'm afraid CCP may be suckered along into the vat of stupidity.

Even if wormholes aren't exactly what CCP intended, I hope they recognize what they've become, and how fanstatic they are at this. They've evolved into something great and could use a little more buffing (ice fuels, for example, available (think Comets)) rather than a nerf.

Hannibal Ord
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.07.15 12:23:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 15/07/2011 12:10:51
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 15/07/2011 12:10:03
They won't answer. They can't. They have no clue what's really going on. They didn't even realize wormholes were the ultimate in null-sec, nor that they had ABC ores. Of course, once they heard that, they assumed the holes were vast spigots gushing minerals into empire without knowing even the most basic aspects of wormhole living. All they're worried about is something threatening their little null bot fleets with even the tiniest hint of competition, and I'm afraid CCP may be suckered along into the vat of stupidity.

Even if wormholes aren't exactly what CCP intended, I hope they recognize what they've become, and how fanstatic they are at this. They've evolved into something great and could use a little more buffing (ice fuels, for example, available (think Comets)) rather than a nerf.


You are so right mate.

Graic Gabtar
Posted - 2011.07.15 12:28:00 - [8]
 

One hundred people could vote in the CSM elections and it would still be free flights/beers/hookers - the works for the winners.

The PR value CCP gets from having the CSM on a short leash in exchange for the bones thrown to their alliances is truly priceless.

The "represent" the players y'see.

Read that fireside chat thread for how simply out of touch the CSM is after being drowned in Kool-Aid.

Xirin
Posted - 2011.07.15 12:34:00 - [9]
 

I for one would like to see some hard numbers on the percentage of high-end minerals that come from wormholes compared to, say, the massive mining CTA's that null-sec has every bloody day.

Besides, grav sites are the least profitable content in wormholes. A lot of people don't even bother with them.

Cutter Isaacson
Minmatar
Spycotics
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:01:00 - [10]
 

Funny, I could have sworn it was CCP that decided what to nerf and what not to nerf, not the CSM. Here is a better question, is the OP mentally challenged?

Wreckar
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:04:00 - [11]
 

I must've missed this.

Could someone point me to the dev blog that mentions exactly what they are doing?

Seems to me that the irrational irate are boarding the bandwagon early and are killing time. Again.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:14:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 15/07/2011 13:34:43
Originally by: Wreckar
I must've missed this.

Could someone point me to the dev blog that mentions exactly what they are doing?

Seems to me that the irrational irate are boarding the bandwagon early and are killing time. Again.


"CCP talked about removing ABC (Arkonor, Bistot and Crokite) mining sites from wormhole space at some point in the future. This may be from all wormholes, or possibly from lower class wormholes only. It was claimed by some members of the CSM that a large fraction of the high end ore supply is produced through these sites, however the CSMs who were active in wormholes would not accept this claim without hard data to back it up."

"Based on comments by CCP Greyscale in a previous session, the subject of removing "ABC" minerals from wormholes was raised by nullsec-resident CSMs, who were surprised to learn that WH space was nullsec and that ABC minerals were available in them. They favored entirely removing ABC from WH space -- or limiting them to C5 and C6 holes -- but the two wormhole-resident CSMs objected strongly, pointing out that exporting minerals from deep wormhole space was difficult, and much of it was likely consumed locally.
An argument was made by some CSMs that the prices of ABC ores and refined products were being crashed by "daytrippers" mining in easily-accessible wormhole space; other CSMs stated that no nerfing of ABC minerals should take place without first obtaining detailed statistics about the balance of trade for each mineral and class of wormhole."


Evidence of their lack of ties with reality. Without understanding what's actually happening, stupid things can be encouraged. The highlighted contraditions alone... sheesh.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:18:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Kalle Demos on 15/07/2011 13:20:33
Quote:
CCP talked about removing ABC (Arkonor, Bistot and Crokite) mining sites from wormhole space at some point in the future. This may be from all wormholes, or possibly from lower class wormholes only. It was claimed by some members of the CSM that a large fraction of the high end ore supply is produced through these sites, however the CSMs who were active in wormholes would not accept this claim without hard data to back it up.


From

Bottom Of Page 27

this isnt the only thing that is making people facepalm, Mittani once again suggests something dumb and White Tree / Vile Rat and those other 2 NC CSM agree without question.

It is so cute when you see grown men fear one another because of internet spaceship politics LMFAO

I am willing to bet the CSM that opposed the WH changes and wanted evidence of the claim were Meissa, Seleene and Trebor too

Wreckar
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:20:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Wreckar
I must've missed this.

Could someone point me to the dev blog that mentions exactly what they are doing?

Seems to me that the irrational irate are boarding the bandwagon early and are killing time. Again.


http://www.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2010/CSM_CCP_Meetings_23-25_06_2010.pdf


Thanks for linking me to those discussions. Already seen them. Question still stands.

Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:30:00 - [15]
 

Mittens is a lipublitard... once you understand that it all makes sense.




Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:46:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Wreckar
Could someone point me to the dev blog that mentions exactly what they are doing?


The pebbles are attempting to stop the avalanche from starting.

By the time that dev blog you are looking for comes out, it will be too late, since devblogs announce stuff that is well under way or finished. The time to take a stance on the stupidity and hypocrisy of this CSM is right now before they herp derp the game into worse trouble.

In the first page, CSM6 thumbed their noses at CSM5's interest in getting something done about lowsec. Then The Mittani backtracked on his statement about not getting involved in things he doesn't understand.

The CSM minutes reflect either a grossly incompetent CSM, or a CSM intentionally spreading misinformation and propaganda (CSM trolling the playerbase? I wouldn't put it past them)

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:57:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn

The CSM minutes reflect either a grossly incompetent CSM, or a CSM intentionally spreading misinformation and propaganda (CSM trolling the playerbase? I wouldn't put it past them)



The MT drama is a prime example of Mittani's incompetence, if you read his posts during the time (which will now get editted I bet) he opens up about drinking beer and eating take out on a Friday night then goes from "I hate MT, no to gold ammo" to "well maybe gold ammo isnt too bad" to "gold ammo is vanity".

CCP tend to ignore all his suggestions anyway, the great thing about CCP is, they know that Mittani has some influence over his sheep so allowing him to speak will encourage Goons to remain loyal to CCP, for most of the rules and changes Trebor, Seleene and Meissa seem to be doing all the work and for what its worth their suggestions and comments (although they dont always agree with each other) are all about making the game better without any political influence.

With NC dead Mittani's influence got smaller and smaller much like his manhood and with that his CSM agenda makes no sense, after all GSF and the remaining sheeps of NC are getting purged as we speak.

Important Person
Posted - 2011.07.15 14:02:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn

The pebbles are attempting to stop the avalanche from starting.



Yes, this is what my sources tell me as well.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.07.15 14:09:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Wreckar
Could someone point me to the dev blog that mentions exactly what they are doing?


The pebbles are attempting to stop the avalanche from starting.

By the time that dev blog you are looking for comes out, it will be too late, since devblogs announce stuff that is well under way or finished. The time to take a stance on the stupidity and hypocrisy of this CSM is right now before they herp derp the game into worse trouble.

In the first page, CSM6 thumbed their noses at CSM5's interest in getting something done about lowsec. Then The Mittani backtracked on his statement about not getting involved in things he doesn't understand.

The CSM minutes reflect either a grossly incompetent CSM, or a CSM intentionally spreading misinformation and propaganda (CSM trolling the playerbase? I wouldn't put it past them)



Interesting though, that the suggestion has raised a considerable outcry. If so few people are mining those ore's in WH space, why are so many people upset? Smile

I would not overlook the fact that the discussion ended in the decision that more hard evidence needed to be brought forth that a change was needed... which is exactly how it should have ended.


Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.07.15 14:12:00 - [20]
 

Worm holes are sort of like this:

- Dull for a couple of days
- Suddenly a nice exit/entrance appears and it's fun for a couple of hours
- Then it shuts and it's dull for a couple of days

Only thing CCP really needs to do is create a ship capable of cycling holes and not being trapped on the wrong side to make them fricken awesomeness

Sure, it sounds like it could be a terrible idea as you can meta game a "win button". in reality, it's a ship that can be blown up potentially trapping people. Its also a life line to small fleets bored of running up against opponents that just undock in 20 abaddons and carriers and just sit there on their station (not that this can't be beaten, but Sod me being so predictable not sand box behavior!).

Removing stuff from worm holes is crazy talk coming from the jelly types that don't have the balls 'to boldly go where others have gone before'.

Tl;dr bucket of water on that idea


Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.15 14:39:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1


Interesting though, that the suggestion has raised a considerable outcry. If so few people are mining those ore's in WH space, why are so many people upset? Smile

I would not overlook the fact that the discussion ended in the decision that more hard evidence needed to be brought forth that a change was needed... which is exactly how it should have ended.




Because they'd be removing necessary resources from -1.0 space without any reason or justification. The resources are mined and for the most part used in the holes themselves. Having to add the logistics of carting in minerals that were mined by some mega-alliance bot-fleets in a higher security status area is completely ridiculous. It's already stupid that moons in wormholes have no goo, or that wormholes are reliant on empire for ice fuels.

JimmyThePimp
Black Viper Nomads
Posted - 2011.07.15 14:42:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Spurty
Only thing CCP really needs to do is create a ship capable of cycling holes and not being trapped on the wrong side to make them fricken awesomeness


theres a calculator built into the game, make use of it.

personally id remove grav / ladar sites from wh's completely, but im not a miner. the **** people pull from them will be a drop in the ocean to the nul ops in safe zones that strip the systems bare, then theres the logistics of taking it into empire, through chains of hostile systems where folks like me are lurking. but that doesnt matter cause none of them know that, none care about that, they are only there to look after #1.

bottom line, mittens is a **** and people seem shocked that hes acting like a ****. i mean really, what did you expect; he'd suddenly become an insightful and fair handed defender of the people? no, you give a prick power and they become a powerful prick, its fairly straightforward. and as long as the csm exists then the ****s will allways win.

live with it.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.07.15 14:49:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: JimmyThePimp


personally id remove grav / ladar sites from wh's completely


EEEK!! Dont give them idea's XD

White Tree
Gallente
Broski Federation
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.07.15 14:54:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
How does this affect your NC agenda


Maybe there never was an NC agenda?

Maybe ... just maybe ... You're basically always wrong.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.15 15:25:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: White Tree
Originally by: Kalle Demos
How does this affect your NC agenda


Maybe there never was an NC agenda?

Maybe ... just maybe ... You're basically always wrong.


So, if I may ask, who's considering nerfing wormholes and why?

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.07.15 15:32:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Mr Kidd on 15/07/2011 15:36:08
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 15/07/2011 15:32:41
Originally by: Ranger 1


Interesting though, that the suggestion has raised a considerable outcry. If so few people are mining those ore's in WH space, why are so many people upset? Smile




The statement indicated "minerals coming out of w-space". A lot of people mine in w-space. But, only a few mine with the intent to export. The logistics of getting ore/minerals out of w-space make it somewhat of a quagmire to do so.

There is really no way for w-space to compete with null for ABC. Unrefined ore takes up a lot of space. The largest ship that can get out of w-space excluding C1's is the Orca. Compared to the Rorq and freighters the Orca is only slightly more efficient than an Iteron V. And you always have to contend with collapsing your holes because of the mass limitations. So, really, you're not going to have a large steady stream of ore coming out of w-space.

You can however, refine the ore. But even still, assuming a medium or intensive refining array you're going to lose 25% to built in inefficiencies. There's no way around that. The mineral market isn't profitable enough to take a 25% loss plus all the hassle of getting large amounts out of w-space. The time and inefficiencies make it not worth your effort with the intent of selling the minerals.

Refining is not as much of an issue for null as it is for w-space since null have stations capable to efficiently refining ore. And null has the means to efficiently move large quantities of ore to the refining stations.

Why so many people are complaining about the statement is that it makes no sense. And yes, a lot of people in w-space do mine but, mainly for their own purposes to construct ships, carriers, ammo, modules, etc. To remove ABC from parts of w-space is to effectively take all the difficulties of getting ABC out but, reverse it and effectively make it as difficult to get sufficient quantities in. It's a rather damaging nerf, TBH, not solely limited to selling minerals.


Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.07.15 15:38:00 - [27]
 

BOO HOO

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.07.15 15:53:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 15/07/2011 15:54:01
I personally am not arguing in favor or removing the ABC ore from WH, I was just making an interesting observation.

Namely:

  • The conclusion made by some that nobody mines in WH space is obviously false..


  • The conclusion made by some that the volume of ABC ore mined in WH space has a significant impact on the EVE economy is probably false, but could stand to have some verification before anything is decided


We also need to keep in mind that we are not privy to the upcoming plans for the restructuring of resources and capabilities for the various "types" of EVE space. There could very well be good reason for considering this change if the focus of WH space is going to change significantly, or it could be totally irrelevant.

Point being, we the community dont have all of the information we need to decide if the change would be "for no good reason". Without that information (both accurate information on ABC export volumes AND future changes in resource distribution) we have no accurate frame of reference to form a valid opinion.

Bane Nucleus
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.07.15 16:03:00 - [29]
 

The one point I would like to bring up is that mining in wormhole space is totally dependent on if you have a grav site in the system. Null sec systems have static belts, everyday.

This alone makes me believe it's very unlikely that wormhole space puts out the amount of ore into high sec as they claim.

Mya ElleTerego
Amarr
The Hull Miners Union
Posted - 2011.07.15 16:16:00 - [30]
 

You have to either need the minerals to actually use for your corp manufacturing in the WH for logistics reasons, or your a complete moron if mining minerals is why you crawled into a wormhole. The absolute, near 24/7 safety that null sec, sov upgrade grav belts provide is the only place to mine for a non total noob / idiot.


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